mikef350

manta ray/ta03 ball diff help

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Hi all

Was just wundering if theres a big improvement between the manta ray and ta03 ball diffs?

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I can't speak from any personal "racing" experience, but:

I think the main improvement of the 53267 TA03 unit over the old 53070 "Manta Ray" type diff, is weight reduction by eliminating unnecessary metal from the cast pressure plates.

The later design is also polished and appears to be machined after casting, whereas the old design is simply cast and maybe tumbled.

You also get a unitized 640 (53136?) thrust bearing in the TA03 kit, but I forget if you can retrofit these to the 53070 type. Maybe there's another difference here?

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The TA03 ball diff has a narrow diff gear and lightweight pressure plates.

I used the thrust bearings inside the Manta Ray ball differentials.

Max

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I can also tell by looking into the differences for mouting the ball diffs to any M chassis, MASSIVELY smaller gear teeth surface. If you lay all three down beside each other, the width of the teeth on the actual diff gear keeps going down. The early M chassis would accept a Manta Ray ball diff, now the latest M chassis instructions seem to keep pointing to the TA03 ball diff. I don't know if that is a way for Tamiya to sell all its surplus TA03 parts, or if they just think it is the better upgrade??? Maybe I raised more questions.

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The TA03 ball diff has a narrow diff gear and lightweight pressure plates.

I used the thrust bearings inside the Manta Ray ball differentials.

Max

Good to know, thanks for the tip!

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Please wait.

I need to check if I used the thrust bearing with normal heavy pressure plates or with the Top Force Evolution lightweight pressure plate. Will check asap and will confirm the info or not.

Max

Good to know, thanks for the tip!

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Just use the TA03 diff, I have found it to be superior to the early one.

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Agreed, the TA03 version really seems to be the final evolution of that line -- They're super easy to set up and are generally bulletproof in my experience. The only thing I like to add to them is a little automotive grade silicone gasket maker to the splined output shafts.

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I checked.

The thrust bearing perfectly fits on the TA01/TA02 Manta Ray ball differentials.

Obviously fits also on Top Force Evolution lightweight pressure plates.

I believe the Top Force Evolution lightweight ball differentials are the best, better than TA03 differentials.

The TA03 diffs are a enlighted version of Manta Ray diffs, in fact they share the same pot material.

Top Force Evo diffs use better, stronger and lighter meterial (aluminum alloy, probably 6020 or 6061 Avional or more strong 7005, 7020 or 7075 Ergal).

Same ball diffs were used on the FF01 that usually destroyed the side splines. The optional solution was the Evo lightweight pressure plates.

Max

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I checked.

The thrust bearing perfectly fits on the TA01/TA02 Manta Ray ball differentials.

Obviously fits also on Top Force Evolution lightweight pressure plates.

I believe the Top Force Evolution lightweight ball differentials are the best, better than TA03 differentials.

The TA03 diffs are a enlighted version of Manta Ray diffs, in fact they share the same pot material.

Top Force Evo diffs use better, stronger and lighter meterial (aluminum alloy, probably 6020 or 6061 Avional or more strong 7005, 7020 or 7075 Ergal).

Same ball diffs were used on the FF01 that usually destroyed the side splines. The optional solution was the Evo lightweight pressure plates.

Max

Yes, as suspected, but excellent to have a confirmation that they are all cross-compatible with the unitized thrust bearing. Thanks! B)

As for the TFE pressure plates, I can totally agree that the machined aluminum is far superior in quality when compared to the cast items, but I'm sure that made them far more expensive for Tamiya to produce. They also have a double-splined plate cap in place of the hex-fit that the other versions have, which is one place that I've seen these fail: The outer splines on the plate cap get fouled and the they eventually self-destruct. (Again, I must re-iterate that I haven't any racing experience with these cars, but after buying and rebuilding lots of well-worn bashers, I've seen certain patterns emerge :wacko: ) I always found this somewhat surprising considering what was otherwise a decent hop-up seemed to have a fairly serious design flaw.

So this got me thinking...

As you're probably already aware, these were also sold as a hop-up item 53112 "Top-Force Aluminum Pressure Plate Set"

53112Top-ForceAluminumPressurePlateSet_z

What I find particularly interesting is that they later released the same plates under the new hop-up number 53219, but now specified for use with touring cars:

53219TouringCarPressurePlateF_zps88ea6eb

NOTE the use of the small brass spacers (marked with a star) "are not used for Top-Force Evolution" !

This is not something I noticed until I was looking over the packaging this evening. These so-called "joint collars" are the same that are included with the 53115 Skyline/TA01 universal set:

53115comp_zps099c03e3.jpg

Notice here that the joint collars are specified for use with the ball differential only, and omitted when paired with the gear diff? :blink: And in both cases they recommend the use of "synthetic rubber cement" otherwise known as silicone adhesive or RTV.

Confused yet? :lol:

I've always wondered what the point of the brass joint collars were since they were only included with the early Skyline universals, and not with the TA01W or TA02 universals. Now that I see that they were also spec'd in the 53219 touring car plates but not with the earlier Top Force version, the mystery deepens!

Was this Tamiya's acknowledgement that there was something inherently wrong with the design of the outdrives, or is there something minutely different about them between the various model generations?

Oh, and one final interesting bit of trivia --The Top Force aluminum plate set and the "lightened" but cast TA03 version are exactly the same weight. If you have an accurate enough scale you will see that they are the same down to a tenth of a gram!!

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The weight of a normal Manta Ray ball diff is 35 grams.
The weight of a lightweight Top Force Evo ball diff is 21 grams.
I'm speaking about the complete assembled ball diff without the diff joint cups.
14 g. x 2 is 28 grams onto the rotating masses. It is no bad in a 1.500 grams model.

I remember that I made a lot of holes into the ball diff pressure plates to eliminate more weight when I raced the cars but I don't remember the weight saved.

Speaking about the joint collars I believe that the torquey touring motor and faster touring car model need a more firm condition to work well. Probably the joint collars avoid vibrations that cut the rotational speed and ruin the pressure plates.
It also could be usefull against the chassis, suspension and shafts torsions caused by the high speed curves, the hard suspension set up and the high grip tires.

Max

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You are certainly living up to your moniker of O C D :D It is all good information, but in the end, won't we just be pressed to use what we can find at an affordable price?? I have on goal to build several M series cars, I won't be able to throw a TFE set in all of them, unless I want to break all my budget numbers completely. I suppose I should stock up on parts if I plan on running them a lot since we have been told what is worn down first, or just go backward to the gear diff.

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The weight of a normal Manta Ray ball diff is 35 grams.

The weight of a lightweight Top Force Evo ball diff is 21 grams.

I'm speaking about the complete assembled ball diff without the diff joint cups.

14 g. x 2 is 28 grams onto the rotating masses. It is no bad in a 1.500 grams model.

I remember that I made a lot of holes into the ball diff pressure plates to eliminate more weight when I raced the cars but I don't remember the weight saved.

I was comparing the TFE plates and the TA03 version plates, but it's been some time since I weighed them, so time to get the scales out again I guess ^_^

"Top Force Evo" Aluminum Pressure Plates:

20141109_102246_zps2f843185.jpg

And the cast metal TA03 version:

20141109_102310_zps8c40767c.jpg

So apparently my memory of them being exactly the same was off, but they are within a half gram of each other. If you weigh just the "A" plate and end cap, they are within .1 difference! (5.2g and 5.3, respectively.)

Speaking about the joint collars I believe that the torquey touring motor and faster touring car model need a more firm condition to work well. Probably the joint collars avoid vibrations that cut the rotational speed and ruin the pressure plates.

It also could be usefull against the chassis, suspension and shafts torsions caused by the high speed curves, the hard suspension set up and the high grip tires.

Max

Well, as I pointed out earlier, the joint collars are included some of the touring car universals, but not others. If this were the case, wouldn't the TA02 universal set require the same collars? And why not just include them with the ball differential? It just seems strange to me :wacko:

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You are certainly living up to your moniker of O C D :D It is all good information, but in the end, won't we just be pressed to use what we can find at an affordable price?? I have on goal to build several M series cars, I won't be able to throw a TFE set in all of them, unless I want to break all my budget numbers completely. I suppose I should stock up on parts if I plan on running them a lot since we have been told what is worn down first, or just go backward to the gear diff.

I think the older TFE plates are becoming rare enough that there's little reason to use them in runners; If you are worried about "wearing down" diff parts, I would just stick with the TA03 version that are easy to source.

If you're trying to build a fully hopped-up M chassis, then I would agree that the TFE plates are the way to go... Just be prepared to lay out the $$$ ;)

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I really don't know about these differences, we should ask to Tamiya engineers.

Anyway the difference between TF Evo and TA03 pressure plate is not only the weight but the material.

The TF Evo plates are much stronger than pot metal TA03 ones.

Here some weight without outdrive cups:

Original Manta Ray ball diff: 35 grams.

Top Force Evo ball diff: 21 grams.

Original Manta Ray ball diff plus some holes I did it: 30 grams.

Top Force Evo ball diff plus some holes I did it: 18 grams. It means 36 grams for both instead of 70 grams of the original configuration.

Max

Well, as I pointed out earlier, the joint collars are included some of the touring car universals, but not others. If this were the case, wouldn't the TA02 universal set require the same collars? And why not just include them with the ball differential? It just seems strange to me :wacko:

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I really don't know about these differences, we should ask to Tamiya engineers.

Anyway the difference between TF Evo and TA03 pressure plate is not only the weight but the material.

The TF Evo plates are much stronger than pot metal TA03 ones.

Here some weight without outdrive cups:

Original Manta Ray ball diff: 35 grams.

Top Force Evo ball diff: 21 grams.

Original Manta Ray ball diff plus some holes I did it: 30 grams.

Top Force Evo ball diff plus some holes I did it: 18 grams. It means 36 grams for both instead of 70 grams of the original configuration.

Max

Oh we should be so lucky as to have the attention of actual Tamiya engineers :lol:

This is fun :D Just for kicks, I weighed the complete TA03, Manta Ray, and TFE differentials.

TA03: 29g

20141109_123736_zps1dee6812.jpg

Manta Ray: 43.8g

20141109_123256_zpsf283b106.jpg

Top Force Evo: 30.4g

20141109_123022_zpsf56dfd99.jpg

What is the point of all of this you ask? Well I made a discovery of sorts...

When weighing the outdrives/gearbox joints separately, I noticed there was not simply a difference in the weight, but a slight difference with the shaft section:

20141109_123438_zpsc5e56437.jpg

20141109_123541_zpsee5d9e2e.jpg

The TA03 gearbox joints have a built-in collar!

Not sure how it is that I've never noticed this until now, but clearly Tamiya saw a need to amend their original design here, and it is the same dimensions as the original brass spacer.

Makes me wonder how necessary this design change is to the overall durability of the drivetrain. Should I be going through all of my runners and checking for spacers or updated gearbox joints? :huh:

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Probably you also don't know that Top Force Evo gearbox joints were shorter than TA-02 ones.

Did you notice a difference of weight between TA03 and (TA-02 Top Force) joints?

You can see these built in collars on Re Re Hot Shot/Super Hot Sot/Boomerang joints also. Probably the diff joints must lie on the ball bearings instead of differential internal parts.

Max

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Probably you also don't know that Top Force Evo gearbox joints were shorter than TA-02 ones.

Did you notice a difference of weight between TA03 and (TA-02 Top Force) joints?

You can see these built in collars on Re Re Hot Shot/Super Hot Sot/Boomerang joints also. Probably the diff joints must lie on the ball bearings instead of differential internal parts.

Max

They were shorter? Well that does surprise me. The gearbox is the same across all models, so how could the joints be any shorter and still have clearance?

Maybe you are referring to the long and short variants that correspond with the gear or ball differential?

GT-RHardCupFr-001_zps16c5ac0b.jpg

Oh, and the TA03 gearbox joints weigh 9.8g, while the TFE are a bit lighter at 9.4g. I presume the brass spacers weigh about a half gram.

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And just to further obfuscate the matter, here are the Top Force Evolution universals in their original form:

53028thundershotuniversals_zps33488352.j

Which includes longer gearbox joints, which I presume is intended for the gear differential that was in the Thundershot, but why? Anyone with an original Thundershot have some insight here?

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Well, more information to crunch. I was just about to point out how you have built the original Manta Ray ball diff with what looks to be hardened shaft cups. I don't remember now if it came with the hardened hardware, but regardless, now that you have shown the collar built into the TA03, I won't ask if the material is less wearable as the hardened parts as it would appear that Tamiya doesn't want you to use the hardened on the TA03 by their design. I feel all consumables should be offered up for a long time from Tamiya, but I guess I could go with new designs to replace the fully worn out old stuff, so whichever Tamiya does, just hope they keep em coming.

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Well, more information to crunch. I was just about to point out how you have built the original Manta Ray ball diff with what looks to be hardened shaft cups. I don't remember now if it came with the hardened hardware, but regardless, now that you have shown the collar built into the TA03, I won't ask if the material is less wearable as the hardened parts as it would appear that Tamiya doesn't want you to use the hardened on the TA03 by their design. I feel all consumables should be offered up for a long time from Tamiya, but I guess I could go with new designs to replace the fully worn out old stuff, so whichever Tamiya does, just hope they keep em coming.

Nope, believe or not, all of the Manta Ray type differentials (TA01, TA02RS, DF01, Hummer, etc.) came with the same hardened outdrive cups, which were the same that were included in the 53118 Skyline set pictured above. Later they changed the dull hard-coating to a shinier black finish, but it appears that the general design had remained unchanged. By the time the TA03 hit the ground, chrome plating was more popular and considered an improvement of durability and efficiency compared to the dull finishes, so it seems like this was the finish of choice going forward.

The fact that there is so much interchangeability with the DF/FF/TA01/2/3 cars, makes a perfect example of Tamiya's dedication of supporting their "legacy" designs. There's been a virtual non-stop production of spares for these models since 1988!

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Maybe it is the Eeyore in me, but I dig the dull finishes. :P

Me too. We all want what we can't have though ;)

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You can see these built in collars on Re Re Hot Shot/Super Hot Sot/Boomerang joints also. Probably the diff joints must lie on the ball bearings instead of differential internal parts.

Max

Do the Thundershot joints have built-in collars as well? I don't have a set of my own to check and confirm...

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