mongoose1983

Kyosho Honda ATC 250R [1982]

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Yes, it’s that rare :) It’s far more rare than the Trike, Sand Skipper, Baja Bug, or Hilux that all came with it. 

See how many used examples of these cars include the pump... 😉. Even some NIB examples don’t include it. 

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4 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

Yes, it’s that rare :) It’s far more rare than the Trike, Sand Skipper, Baja Bug, or Hilux that all came with it. 

See how many used examples of these cars include the pump... 😉. Even some NIB examples don’t include it. 

I'm not qualified to have an opinion about how rare the pump is, but I can at least chime in with the fact that it was included in only 1 of 5 Hiluxes and none of 2 Sand Skippers I've bought used on eBay. As the Sand Skipper was sold as the Coyote by Robbe and the Hilux both by Graupner and Robbe, none of these models themselves are rare in Germany, but I believe the only Baja Bug in acceptable condition that I've seen on eBay is one I believe you offered a couple a years ago. The Baja Bug is high on my wishlist. The early molded bumper (vs. the later stamped one) and the roll cage are quite difficult to find as well. The last two decades, I've only found one early bumper and two NIB and unbroken cages. They are mostly so brittle now that even in their original packaging, the cages are mostly broken.

As for the ATC, it was also offered by both Robbe and Graupner and isn't extremely rare in Germany, but parts indeed are. So rare in fact that I still look for a mint ATC as fixing a mediocre or bad one with new parts is virtually impossible. 

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Thanks for your posts.
Considering them i need to be very patient and take my time.

Luckly it is in a condition that can be a good runner easily and then with time will try to find and add the missing parts...

Bye.
WWD
:)

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6 hours ago, wildwillydriver said:

Thanks for your posts.
Considering them i need to be very patient and take my time.

Luckly it is in a condition that can be a good runner easily and then with time will try to find and add the missing parts...

Bye.
WWD
:)

care to share some pictures? I know I always love to see one of these nice Hondas! :)

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19 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

I'm not qualified to have an opinion about how rare the pump is, but I can at least chime in with the fact that it was included in only 1 of 5 Hiluxes and none of 2 Sand Skippers I've bought used on eBay. As the Sand Skipper was sold as the Coyote by Robbe and the Hilux both by Graupner and Robbe, none of these models themselves are rare in Germany, but I believe the only Baja Bug in acceptable condition that I've seen on eBay is one I believe you offered a couple a years ago. The Baja Bug is high on my wishlist. The early molded bumper (vs. the later stamped one) and the roll cage are quite difficult to find as well. The last two decades, I've only found one early bumper and two NIB and unbroken cages. They are mostly so brittle now that even in their original packaging, the cages are mostly broken.

As for the ATC, it was also offered by both Robbe and Graupner and isn't extremely rare in Germany, but parts indeed are. So rare in fact that I still look for a mint ATC as fixing a mediocre or bad one with new parts is virtually impossible. 

True, the Sand Skipper (Coyote) and Hilux were sold under Robbe and Graupner. Incidentally, has anyone ever seen the Volkswagen Baja Bug sold under Robbe or Graupner? I don't think I have. And it's rather strange, considering this was the only German vehicle of the three. Though it was also the third in the series. So perhaps the other two had not sold enough in Germany to justify also rebranding and selling the third in the line. Just a guess though.

I'd like to learn what you mean Mokei, about the "early molded bumper" vs "later stamped", and the brittle factor. I don't think I'm across these issues.

Yes, I sold a Volkswagen Baja Bug a few years back. That had been a restoration (which I had just started) with a cut (but unpainted) body. I sold it mainly because I had the chance at that time, to buy a new in box Volkswagen Baja Bug. For which I paid a high price :(  To date, in the years before or since, it is the only new one I have seen. I do not have the heart to complete (paint) the kit, in case it's the last new one in existence :mellow:

Once many years ago, while visiting @RETRO R/C to see his collection, we talked for hours as we often used to do. This was long before I had even tried to find the Baja Bug. Since he is a major Kyosho fan and collector, I asked what the chances were of ever finding one NIB. I always remember he replied, "Good luck with that. Can't get it.".  He has many NIB cars I still don't have, and will probably never have. So it was pretty daunting to consider that challenge.

When I suddenly had the unexpected chance one day, some years later, to buy the Bug... my hands were actually a bit shaky as I sent the Paypal payment :D Both due to what it was (and the price).

Today, it just rests in a display cabinet. The box is old, but will never get worse. I promise to look after it, just in case its the last NIB.

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16 hours ago, wildwillydriver said:

Thanks for your posts.
Considering them i need to be very patient and take my time.

Luckly it is in a condition that can be a good runner easily and then with time will try to find and add the missing parts...

Bye.
WWD
:)

This is very much the right approach and attitude to have - so it's nice to see a comment like this :)  

If you are into rare, vintage R/C cars like these - the name of the game is patience (and vigilance!). Keep watching the markets always. But try to have a zen-like patience, and be prepared to wait as long as it takes. It's exactly the same as the people restoring 1:1 scale cars - and taking many years to find the right pieces to restore them to original condition.

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3 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

True, the Sand Skipper (Coyote) and Hilux were sold under Robbe and Graupner. Incidentally, has anyone ever seen the Volkswagen Baja Bug sold under Robbe or Graupner? I don't think I have. And it's rather strange, considering this was the only German vehicle of the three. Though it was also the third in the series. So perhaps the other two had not sold enough in Germany to justify also rebranding and selling the third in the line. Just a guess though.

I'd like to learn what you mean Mokei, about the "early molded bumper" vs "later stamped", and the brittle factor. I don't think I'm across these issues.

Admittedly, I don't have a complete collection of Graupner and Robbe catalogs, but I've been collecting models of aircooled VW's for close to 38-39 years and also have a "database" where I try to include all models of aircooled VW's ever made. Also, though I didn't grow up in Germany, I visited Germany almost every year with my family from early childhood until i moved here in 2000, and have always been a fanatic at visiting toy/hobbyshops and collecting catalogs. Must have been a pia for my parents and sister during our holidays! Anyway, what I intend to say is that though I can't be 100% sure, considering how I've kept my eyes peeled for such a long time, I'm very confident that the Baja Bug was never distributed by Graupner or Robbe. I couldn't possibly have missed it if it ever was.

Licensing was hardly an issue back then, but on the other side, whereas the Kyosho Peanut Dune Buggy and single-seater Wagen Baja (curiously dubbed the "Baja Bug" in Germany. "Wagen Baja" sounds ridiculous in German, so maybe the reason for the change?) were quite popular and in the program for many years, their Peanut VW Beetle sibling was as far as I know never sold by Robbe or Graupner.

As for your hypothesis that the Hilux and Sand Skipper/Coyote may not have sold well enough for justifying adding the Baja Bug to the program, you could easily be right about the Sand Skipper/Coyote. It was a strange beast indeed, even if it's loosely based on the design of the very cool Honda Odyssey. However, the Hilux must very likely have sold very well. Robbe's and Graupner's presence in Germany and Austria was massive, It was very competitively priced, widely available, didn't have much competition in its price range (Holiday Buggy primarily) and used ones for sale are still pretty common in Germany/Austria. Though being certain about anything that happened decades ago isn't really possible without proper documentation, I'm very confident that the Hilux sold very well and the VW Beetle being a popular evergreen in Germany, I would think that the Baja Bug would have had great potential. But then again, the Scorpion and Scorpion Beetle were quite a lot cheaper in Germany than the Sand Scorcher and Rough Rider were, so maybe the moderate difference in price between the Baja Bug and the Scorpion Beetle made Robbe/Graupner drop the Baja Bug. And don't get me wrong, I love the look of the Kyosho Baja Bug, but I can imagine that it looked (and looks) rather awkward to many with its lack of a rear age and protruding motor and square headlights on the strange low nose, whereas the Scorpion Beetle surely is much more attractive?

Molded vs. stamped bumper:

Though there may not have been a clean cut point for the change (we both know how early and late parts were mixed in SRBs!), catalog photos support my impression that the molded bumper was the early type, replaced by the stamped bumper at a certain time. The molded (SRB-inspired?) bumper appears to be of the same material as the roll cage, whereas the stamped bumper is of a tough material, quite similar to the "Kydex" material CRP used for their bumpers, skid plates and nerf wings. The stamped bumper is by far the most common on Sand Skippers/Coyotes and Hiluxes distributed by Graupner and Robbe, and I searched for a long time to find one with the molded bumper (seen below on my Sand Skipper). The change to the stamped type surely made sense. It's definitely tougher and most likely quite a bit cheaper to manufacture and to most buyers, the somewhat uglier stamped bumper surely didn't matter.

With regard to brittleness, I may not have been clear. Of the used models I've seen, the molded bumper is broken on most, whereas I've never seen one with a broken stamped bumper. That doesn't necessarily mean that the molded bumper is less tough or becomes brittle though. I simply don't know, and my comment about brittleness was only with the roll cage in mind. Finding a model with the roll cage undamaged is near to impossible from my experience and though I'm ashamed to admit it, I've even managed to break a NIB one just by carefully handling the model after fitting the roll cage. My very strong impression is that the roll cage either always was very brittle or becomes so with age. 

Talking about the roll cage, I'd like to add that the Hilux first came with the roll cage, whereas later production ones distributed by Graupner and/or Robbe, came without it. Don't know about Hiluxes sold as genuine Kyosho product? Maybe you do, Hib? Also, the Hilux seems to always have come with the body prepainted as a Graupner/Robbe product. Were all Hiluxes from Kyosho? Finally, I've seen photos of a Hilux that appears to have the front bulkhead in diecast material similar to the front trailing arms and the gearbox, but same or very similar to the design of the plastic front bulkhead. Did initial production Hiluxes have diecast front bulkheads? Any information? 

I've also included a scan I did from my oldest Kyosho catalog, showing the Sand Skipper and Hilux with the molded bumper and the Baja Bug with the stampted bumper. And yeah, sorry about all the dust on my Sand Skipper. It was assembled from the best used and new parts for this model that I have, but is stored on a shelf in my hobby workshop where sanding and grinding is also done. :o

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13 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

have always been a fanatic at visiting toy/hobbyshops and collecting catalogs. Must have been a pia for my parents and sister during our holidays!

We sound a lot alike. You should see my filing cabinet of catalogue, pamplets, magazines and other research material collected over many years ^_^

13 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

As for your hypothesis that the Hilux and Sand Skipper/Coyote may not have sold well enough for justifying adding the Baja Bug to the program, you could easily be right about the Sand Skipper/Coyote. It was a strange beast indeed, even if it's loosely based on the design of the very cool Honda Odyssey. However, the Hilux must very likely have sold very well. Robbe's and Graupner's presence in Germany and Austria was massive, It was very competitively priced, widely available, didn't have much competition in its price range (Holiday Buggy primarily) and used ones for sale are still pretty common in Germany/Austria. Though being certain about anything that happened decades ago isn't really possible without proper documentation, I'm very confident that the Hilux sold very well and the VW Beetle being a popular evergreen in Germany, I would think that the Baja Bug would have had great potential.

Is there any chance the Baja Bug was sold simply under plain Kyosho branding in Germany? Agree that it's very hard to be certain about all this, and the only chance we have now is if the model appears listed for sale in any old German R/C magazines from that era.

13 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

And don't get me wrong, I love the look of the Kyosho Baja Bug, but I can imagine that it looked (and looks) rather awkward to many with its lack of a rear age and protruding motor and square headlights on the strange low nose, whereas the Scorpion Beetle surely is much more attractive?

It's funny, I sort of see them both as interesting attempts by Kyosho to snag some of the Sand Scorcher market. Yet both attempts were a little less realistic...nevertheless, as I love Beetles almost as much as you MK, I found both their designs utterly irresistible from the moment I knew about them.

Perhaps Graupner, who did market the Kyosho Beetle, actually just decided one Graupner R/C Beetle was enough? As both came out near 1982. Again though, just another guess.

13 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

catalog photos support my impression that the molded bumper was the early type, replaced by the stamped bumper at a certain time. The molded (SRB-inspired?) bumper appears to be of the same material as the roll cage, whereas the stamped bumper is of a tough material, quite similar to the "Kydex" material CRP used for their bumpers, skid plates and nerf wings.

Ah I see what you mean about these bumpers now (sorry, I thought at first it might have been a variant within the Baja Bug's release itself). To my knowledge, the Baja Bug was released third in the line - the kit for it even comes with a separate single page leaflet sheet to show how to trim and decorate the Bug body.

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And I went looking through all my documentation, and every image and illustration of the Bug always shows the newer, stamped bumper.

My guess is the Bug came with the newer bumper, and this was also rolled out to all Hiluxes and Sand Skippers at that time. Traditionally, foreign importer/resellers like Graupner or Robbe would have been slower to release models like these, than back home in native Japan - hence the stamped bumper is more common as you say, on those foreign examples, because they were being sold a bit later in the production run.

You are right about the brittle molded bumper - I forgot, but I actually have a broken example of it also. When I tried to flex it just now, ever so gently, it snapped even further :P. My advice to anyone with this part - do not flex it at all, ever. And do not run your car into any object. It is clearly a deeply flawed plastic part, and the same must apply to the roll cage piece. So if you have those original pieces, handle them with extreme care.

13 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

Talking about the roll cage, I'd like to add that the Hilux first came with the roll cage, whereas later production ones distributed by Graupner and/or Robbe, came without it. Don't know about Hiluxes sold as genuine Kyosho product? Maybe you do, Hib? Also, the Hilux seems to always have come with the body prepainted as a Graupner/Robbe product. Were all Hiluxes from Kyosho?

It's interesting...

As far as I know, all Hiluxes from Kyosho came with the roll cage too. This appears in all the paperwork and kits I have seen anyway. And as far as I know, all Hiluxes were genuine Kyosho product at the beginning.

But I will add this - Kyosho seemed to have a more "liberal" view toward how its products appeared in foreign markets. Consider the fact that MRC (the US Tamiya distributor) was never the sole branding on a Tamiya product. Tamiya always retained their branding. Yet for Kyosho - Graupner, Robbe, and Cox were the prominent branding on Kyosho products sold in Europe and USA. In the case of Cox, the Scorpion was not only sold as the Cox Scorpion, but it was also sold preassembled in a box - you only had to paint the body. And all the boxes of these foreign Kyoshos were different, to the Kyoshos sold in Japan.

The idea of Tamiya selling their kits overseas, under another name, and in a totally different kit form and kit box (e.g. pre-built) - is something that did not happen (and to my knowledge, has never happened). So my guess is this "liberal" handling of Kyosho's products also extended as far as pre-painting some cars, or maybe even dropping the fragile roll cage part when it proved to be a hassle in those markets.

The way these companies did these foreign releases, also inspired me to try to define "release" in relation to model and variant. i.e. Kyosho = original release. Graupner = separate release. But all stem from the same "model".

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13 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

Finally, I've seen photos of a Hilux that appears to have the front bulkhead in diecast material similar to the front trailing arms and the gearbox, but same or very similar to the design of the plastic front bulkhead. Did initial production Hiluxes have diecast front bulkheads? Any information?  

This is something I have never seen actually, so would be interested to see the photo. It may fall into the "prototype" area... as we have both experienced, quite a lot of early photos showed prototypes. Some Kyosho prototypes even made it to the box photo of the kit! e.g. it is impossible to reproduce, exactly, the original box photo car of the Kyosho Scorpion as the roll bar is different, and maybe one or two other things.

I am convinced though, that all decals used on Kyosho box photo cars can be tracked down - you just have to look at decals across different kits from Kyosho, from the same era, to find the exact ones that were used.

Great discussion.

Sorry we have hijacked the ATC aspect, but these cars are related at least (all use the same tyres, with pump!) ;)

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8 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

But I will add this - Kyosho seemed to have a more "liberal" view toward how its products appeared in foreign markets. Consider the fact that MRC (the US Tamiya distributor) was never the sole branding on a Tamiya product. Tamiya always retained their branding. Yet for Kyosho - Graupner, Robbe, and Cox were the prominent branding on Kyosho products sold in Europe and USA

Always wondered about this myself. Even as a child, I understood Tamiya was the real manufacturer behind it all despite MRC logos being all over everything here in the US. In Kyosho's case, it was much different. I was very familiar with Kyosho but until the arrival of the internet, I had no idea the Scorpion was a Kyosho product. Everybody from hobbyist, to Tower hobbies, to magazine reviewers referred to it as the Cox Scorpion. I always wondered how Cox (who I mainly knew for airplanes, and later the Bandito and Ultra-Stock) made this competitive buggy that outran the SRBs and almost kept pace with the early RC10s. When I found out it was a Kyosho product, it all became clear.

Perhaps Tamiya had enough clout (or even pride or forethought) in foreign markets to make certain their name was out there. Maybe Kyosho thought they'd "play-it-safe" by letting other brands take the spotlight for their products. They'd still move units without worrying about being an unknown brand in the beginning. Sorry for the further derailment ;).   

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11 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

Is there any chance the Baja Bug was sold simply under plain Kyosho branding in Germany? Agree that it's very hard to be certain about all this, and the only chance we have now is if the model appears listed for sale in any old German R/C magazines from that era.

I would exclude this posibility completely as Kyosho wasn't sold in Germany under its own name at all in the seventies and eighties. I don't remember which year Kyosho was established as its own brand in Germany or when Kyosho Germany was established as a company. A quick check confirms that it was no later than 1998, but it was possibly a few years earlier. As for Robbe and Graupner as distributors, early eighties catalogs confirm that they both distributed Kyosho partially at the same time. It can be argued that Robbe took over distributorship and Graupner then continued to get rid of old stock, but that can't possibly be the entire picture. New Kyosho products were introduced and sold as both Graupner and Robbe for at least a decade, and I know for certain that Kyosho distributorship was switched from Graupner AND Robbe (!) to the company Norwegian Modelers in Norway in 1986, and then from Norwegian Modellers to the company Slotcar AB in the early nineties, after Slotcar AB had been the sole Swedish distributor for Kyosho since roughly 1980 in Sweden. With the change from Robbe / Graupner, Slotcar AB added Norway and Denmark to their market for Kyosho products.

German distributors of hobby products always had a strong tradition of selling products under their own companies' names, when they actually only were distributors, often rebranding them. German Tamiya distributor Behringer was an exception, always marketing Tamiya cleanly with the Tamiya name. As a paradox, current German Tamiya distributor Dickie, did and partially still does it the other way around, marketing other brands they distribute as "Tamiya", cannibalizing the Tamiya name, goodwill and image. Quite often with products of very poor quality. These highly immoral activities have been reduced in recent years though, possibly because Tamiya Inc. put pressure on Dickie. 

11 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

Perhaps Graupner, who did market the Kyosho Beetle, actually just decided one Graupner R/C Beetle was enough? As both came out near 1982. Again though, just another guess.

That's exactly what I tried to indicate in my previous post too. Admittedly in lack of a better theory. As for Robbe, they added the Beetle-bodied Holiday Buggy clone from Mantua Models to their range roughly at the same time and continued to sell the Kyosho Hilux. So if Graupner chose to distribute only the Scorpion Beetle and not Baja Bug, Robbe might have dropped the Baja Bug in favour of the Mantua Beetle. Maybe because of better margins on the Italian Mantua products, but that's just a speculation from my side.

11 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

Ah I see what you mean about these bumpers now (sorry, I thought at first it might have been a variant within the Baja Bug's release itself). To my knowledge, the Baja Bug was released third in the line 

Identical to my impressions. Baja Bug always with the stamped bumper, being the third model in the series.

As for chronology and theories and partially facts mentioned here, I've done some scans from old Robbe catalogs, including the Hilux with early bumper, but without the roll cage and with completely closed floor in the pickup bed. For fun, also a photo of the Wagen Baja in its "Baja Bug" livery and stickers, as distributed by Robbe. A parallel in name change to the Sand Skipper / Coyote. Browsing through old catalogs, I was also reminded of that the Kyosho Gallop (Mk. I) was sold as the Robbe Hurricane 4WS.

Also, the text on the ATC photo states that the ATC isn't deliveried to Norway by Robbe or Lyche (the Robbe distributor). It was imported to Norway as a "Graupner" product by the Graupner distributor instead.

A big "sorry for hijacking the thread!" from my side too. As the topics discussed partially relate to the ATC, I thought it would be somewhat acceptable and still hope it is!

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On 6/8/2019 at 1:42 AM, mongoose1983 said:

care to share some pictures? I know I always love to see one of these nice Hondas! :)


Here we go a couple of pics to share.

Bye.

WWD
:)

 

ATC_1.jpg

ATC_2.jpg

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Here the close UP to the 540 mod....., not so happy about it but i have to deal with it. If i can't find a gear set and put the 380 back on i have to find a 540 motor with high turns that mimic the same performance. Any suggestion 50T more or less.....?

Bye
WWD
:)

 

ATC_3.jpg

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