the vintage game changers from Tamiya

[Saito2]

So which cars would one consider to be game changers for Tamiya back in the day? These cars would be significantly different from what Tamiya had been doing before, perhaps signaling new endeavors or directions. Here's a list I thought of at work one day but I'm sure there's others.

The SRBs. Not surprising really and the point of how revolutionary they were has been reviewed many times.

The Hot Shot. I skipped the ORV series. While they are evolutionary change from the SRBs, to me, they are sort of a change-over from the full metal era to the plastic era. The Hot Shot was full plastic. The moldings of the Hot Shot are very accurate and more detailed/complex than earlier cars. Long control arms matched with low profile tires are another step forward. Of course the obvious is the sealed, durable efficient shaft driven 4wd.

The Avante. Say what one will about its effectiveness and unproven designs, but it WAS quite a change. The Hot Shot's bones had been re-kitted many times and while the Thundershot was all-new, its design was evolutionary, not revolutionary. The Avante was clean-sheet thinking at the time.

The Mad Cap/Astute/King Cab. These vehicles were designed all around the same time. They were a different and better step forward than anything before. The Mad Cap was an amazing entry level car at the time. Far above the Hornets and Falcons before it. The Astute was Tamiya's first shot at serious 2wd since the Fox and the King Cab was a great truck that held its own against buggy conversion trucks.

The Manta Ray. Here Tamiya swept away all the neat but unproven designs and went for the clean and straight forward. It worked. The simple Manta Ray proved to be a great entry level 4wd and in Top Force guise, a better all around car than the complex Avante series. It seemed to be the one chassis to do it all as it sparked the touring cars phase as well.

[Nitomor]

^ What about the Bruiser

Edit, that would be the 4x4 Hilux before that actually...

[njmlondon]

I think there were a lot of game changers in all genre's back in the 70's and 80's

58001 was of course the biggest game changer of them all. In fact it pretty much invented the "scale models that move" game.

The SRBs as you mention above were next in line.

Then the awesome 3-speed hilux and blazer.

Then the Hot shot and its variants.

Then the Avante and its derivatives

And then probably the TA01 and the birth of Touring and Rally cars.

Not sure if the F1 range was a game changer but that may just be me.

There are a couple of iconic cars as well such as the Wild Willy M38 and the 959. Not sure they were game changers though.

After that, most Tamiya releases were either extensions of the above game changers, or Tamiya getting into a market already made by other companies. The CR02 crawler springs to mind.

You can really see why Tamiya lead the way in RC with those first 50-100 releases.

[Shodog]

If you're talking a game changer in the industry there are just a few items Tamiya did right

SRB were not the first off traders but definitely the most popular

Grasshopper hornet- first affordable huskily RC car and your parents didn't need to be investment bankers to buy one

Hilux/ bruiser set the stage for scale truck segment

Ta-01 ushered in the age of touring cars

1/14 scale semis bring the price down into the range of a normal modeler

Everything else from the hot shot to the avante was tamiya trying to play catch up

[NWarty]

Grasshopper hornet- first affordable huskily RC car and your parents didn't need to be investment bankers to buy one

Absolutely agreed and set into motion a huge wave of affordable RC's ranging from Nikkos, Tyco, Cox and Radio Shack as starters.

[berman]

58001 was of course the biggest game changer of them all. In fact it pretty much invented the "scale models that move" game.

I think that accolade can be handed to the Sherman, that was the original game changer. No skin off the porsche though.

[mongoose1983]

^ What about the Bruiser

Edit, that would be the 4x4 Hilux before that actually...

But the Toyota Bruiser only shares the axles and nothing else with the 1981 Toyota 4x4 pick-up. Bodies were different (except for the grill, of course), and so were the interiors, transmissions, suspensions, and even the chassis frame was 100% different in shape AND material.

SRB were not the first off traders but definitely the most popular

You mean offroaders, Jim? If they were not the 1st ones, then which ones were the first offroaders in your opinion?

[Nitomor]

But the Toyota Bruiser only shares the axles and nothing else with the 1981 Toyota 4x4 pick-up. Bodies were different (except for the grill, of course), and so were the interiors, transmissions, suspensions, and even the chassis frame was 100% different in shape AND material.

Interesting, Omhadn't appreciated they were that different. I'm referring predominantly to the 3 speed and all metal kit/ladder chassis concept. I didn't realise the transmission was different. Is the original 'lux still shift on the fly? I knew the front hubs were different and the earlier truck has switcheable front hubs but isn't that a diff lock rather than to activate 4wd?

Cheers

Nito

[whahooo]

 

But the Toyota Bruiser only shares the axles and nothing else with the 1981 Toyota 4x4 pick-up. Bodies were different (except for the grill, of course), and so were the interiors, transmissions, suspensions, and even the chassis frame was 100% different in shape AND material.

You mean offroaders, Jim? If they were not the 1st ones, then which ones were the first offroaders in your opinion?

Isn't the XR 311 a scaler, an off-roader & released before the SRBs?

But I'm no expert by any means.

[IBIFTKH]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the ClodBuster. The first real monster truck, and an almost uninterrupted production run ever since. I think it really was a game-changer, for Tamiya and for the hobby. The Clod is the granddaddy to all the big monster trucks and a fairly large segment of comp crawlers too.

When it was first released it was huge compared to just about everything else available. It was expensive but no prohibitively so, fairly complex but not difficult to build or drive, it was tough, it was fun, it was awesome.

[Saito2]

You know, I totally forgot to think of trucks! Of course the Toyota Hilux for would be one and the Clod another. While the Clod was not the first BIG truck on the market, it was so far above its competition in durability and power that it set a totally new standard. The MRP High Roller and Varicom Big Grizzly paled in comparison.

I didn't toss the XR311 (which despite its beautiful body, mechanically isn't a scaler) in or other earlier off road attempts by other manufacturers because the SRBs seems to be much better. They had actual four wheel independent suspension and were somewhat durable for their time.

I think Tamiya's real let-downs were in the area of competition. They seemed to innovate, but then drop the ball while other manufacturers would take it and run. Shodog listed five categories featuring Tamiya. Are there any other manufacturers that can claim that? Kyosho made better competition buggies (as did AE, Losi, etc) but did they also make better trucks, rigs or scalers?

[Shodog]

I believe there were off roaders from Kyosho out before the SRB. The SRB was just a fully functional replica resembling a VW Baja Bug chassis.

[Mad Ax]

Hilux/ bruiser set the stage for scale truck segment

...which then pretty much stagnated for another 20-odd years

[mongoose1983]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the ClodBuster. The first real monster truck, and an almost uninterrupted production run ever since. I think it really was a game-changer, for Tamiya and for the hobby. The Clod is the granddaddy to all the big monster trucks and a fairly large segment of comp crawlers too.

When it was first released it was huge compared to just about everything else available. It was expensive but no prohibitively so, fairly complex but not difficult to build or drive, it was tough, it was fun, it was awesome.

That's correct. The Clod Buster is and will always be the best piece of RC to ever grace the face of earth!!!

Interesting, Omhadn't appreciated they were that different. I'm referring predominantly to the 3 speed and all metal kit/ladder chassis concept. I didn't realise the transmission was different. Is the original 'lux still shift on the fly? I knew the front hubs were different and the earlier truck has switcheable front hubs but isn't that a diff lock rather than to activate 4wd?

Cheers

Nito

The Bruiser transmission is actually a bit more developed. Not only it features the mighty Machubi RS-750 motor but you could also go from 2wd to 4wd through your transmitter! And yes, you're correct. The front hubs were different. But if not for those, the axles would be the only bit from the 1981 Toyota pick-up to still be used by Tamiya in the 1985 Bruiser. That and the grill, nothing else.

I believe there were off roaders from Kyosho out before the SRB. The SRB was just a fully functional replica resembling a VW Baja Bug chassis.

Would be nice to see some pictures of those Kyoshos, because as somebody pointed out here above I thought the XR-311 in 1978 was the first off-roader. I'm curious because the offroaders that Kyosho sold by 1985, although conceived at that time looked so old and Flintstone-like in terms of designs, some of them you'd guess were made in the late 60's by looks alone.

You know, I totally forgot to think of trucks! Of course the Toyota Hilux for would be one and the Clod another. While the Clod was not the first BIG truck on the market, it was so far above its competition in durability and power that it set a totally new standard. The MRP High Roller and Varicom Big Grizzly paled in comparison.

I didn't toss the XR311 (which despite its beautiful body, mechanically isn't a scaler) in or other earlier off road attempts by other manufacturers because the SRBs seems to be much better. They had actual four wheel independent suspension and were somewhat durable for their time.

I think Tamiya's real let-downs were in the area of competition. They seemed to innovate, but then drop the ball while other manufacturers would take it and run. Shodog listed five categories featuring Tamiya. Are there any other manufacturers that can claim that? Kyosho made better competition buggies (as did AE, Losi, etc) but did they also make better trucks, rigs or scalers?

Both, the Rough Rider and the XR-311 had four wheel independent suspension.

And yes, Tamiya is not known for being a company to make competition winners. They are indeed a plastic model company, and at that they have no contenders. They made "model cars suitable for radiocontrol". And since they have always tried to keep one foot on the model zone and the other on the performance zone they have not been winners on the circuits like other companies that just focus their goal in performance alone. At least that is how I see things on the subject.

[Mokei Kagaku]

The Bruiser transmission is actually a bit more developed. Not only it features the mighty Machubi RS-750 motor but you could also go from 2wd to 4wd through your transmitter! And yes, you're correct. The front hubs were different. But if not for those, the axles would be the only bit from the 1981 Toyota pick-up to still be used by Tamiya in the 1985 Bruiser. That and the grill, nothing else.

Almost nothing else! But also switch boot, gearbox rubber plugs, steering wheel and column, headlight reflectors and lenses, front turning light reflectors and lenses, front license plate, mirror, grill bracket, universal joints, 1150 bronze bushings and some of the gearbox parts. That's about all I can tell from the top of my head except for various screws, nuts, small tubes and other minor "generic" parts.

As for the axle assemblies, most parts are identical, but just like the hubs that you point out, the front wheel shafts and knuckles are also different, as is the rear axle shaft.

[Mokei Kagaku]

Would be nice to see some pictures of those Kyoshos, because as somebody pointed out here above I thought the XR-311 in 1978 was the first off-roader. I'm curious because the offroaders that Kyosho sold by 1985, although conceived at that time looked so old and Flintstone-like in terms of designs, some of them you'd guess were made in the late 60's by looks alone.

I'm not sure exactly when they were released, but Kyosho was early with the Rally Sports and Eleck Peanut series. We're most likely talking about 1978/1979 here too, just like for the XR311/Cheetah and RR/SS.

As for early/mid eighties, even as a diehard Tamiya and SRB fan, I can't deny that the Scorpions series was vastly superior to the SRB from a technical viewpoint and as a racer. If Kyosho had had similarly nice and detailed scale bodies, good manuals and nice packaging and boxarts, there would hardly have been any valid rational reasons to buy an SRB (including Super Champ, regardless of counting it as an SRB or not) instead of a Scorpion/Beetle/Tomahawk.

In fact, I think especially back then it was evident that Kyosho was an RC company with a lot of "field experience", whereas Tamiya was a plastic model company more than anything else. Put in a humorous way; Kyosho made RC-models, Tamiya made models "suitable for radio control", to quote Tamiya themselves! ;-)

Edit: Just noticed that you've used the same quote! Thus probably a similar opinion on this too! :-)

[mongoose1983]

That's right, Mokei. Now about Kyosho, yes, I understand what you're saying about the Scorpion --beautiful buggy that it is!- but I have here the Honda 250R ATC, and have seen the Chevy 4x4, and if you look at these keeping in mind when Kyosho put them out in the markets you would be surprised to learn they were not designed or produced in 1967, haha.

[mongoose1983]

Edit: Just noticed that you've used the same quote! Thus probably a similar opinion on this too! :-)

Actually, that line "plastic model suitable for radiocontrol" is what keeps me in the hobby. If not for that, I know I would not be half as excited about RC cars as I am.

[Mokei Kagaku]

That's right, Mokei. Now about Kyosho, yes, I understand what you're saying about the Scorpion --beautiful buggy that it is!- but I have here the Honda 250R ATC, and have seen the Chevy 4x4, and if you look at these keeping in mind when Kyosho put them out in the markets you would be surprised to learn they were not designed or produced in 1967, haha.

Sure! And even as flawed as the DPB-chassis (Holiday Buggy/Sand Rover) is, Kyosho's direct competitor, the Hilux/Sand Skipper/Baja Bug-chassis isn't exactly brilliant in comparison. Love my early spec. Sand Skipper though! Maybe we should count in the Cactus Buggy as a DPB-competitor too. Cool now, but surely not the construction Kyosho would mention as their best attempt now.

As for the Scorpion-series chassis, Kyosho pretty much demonstrated how (much of) the SRB-chassis should have been. Much lighter, no silly excessive chassis flex to influence steering and causing radiobox and body breakage, superior suspension geometry and handling and even a lot more authentic rear suspension! I don't remember his name, but a Swedish TC'er built a Scorpion/SRB hybrid some years ago, using the SRB front suspension for authenticity with most other parts from the Scorpion, topped with a Tamiya body. So to speak the "ultimate SRB", the way I think Tamiya should have made it.

[Hibernaculum]

As for the Scorpion-series chassis, Kyosho pretty much demonstrated how (much of) the SRB-chassis should have been. Much lighter, no silly excessive chassis flex to influence steering and causing radiobox and body breakage, superior suspension geometry and handling and even a lot more authentic rear suspension! I don't remember his name, but a Swedish TC'er built a Scorpion/SRB hybrid some years ago, using the SRB front suspension for authenticity with most other parts from the Scorpion, topped with a Tamiya body. So to speak the "ultimate SRB", the way I think Tamiya should have made it.

Good info Mokei, but I respectfully disagree on one aspect...

I don't think the words "should" and "should have" really befit the history side of things. Like, I don't really think Tamiya "should" have done anything different to what they did, with regard to the SRBs. They did what they thought was right at the time.

In the late 70s, R/C racing was barely even a cottage industry. There were few, if any, racing standards. Most R/C companies were just doing what they thought was fun. Racing was by far not the #1 priority in most R/C design, including for Kyosho (1970s), although they were doing some racing against Ishimasa buggies and the like in early petrol racing.

Tamiya's early models were definitely designed and built for versatility and fun, and racing was just "something you could enjoy doing" with these models. In fact, Tamiya never really bothered to worry about serious racing (in off road) until about a decade later, in the late 1980s, I believe, when you look at the effort they went to with cars like the Avante and Astute. And even then, they seemed to have some fun with engineering, rather than cutting things down for pure speed.

Tamiya's focus was rarely 100% on racing. It was on fun. And they achieved their purpose

I think we often have a tendency to look back at history (and I do it sometimes too) through the prism of just R/C racing and speed. i.e. the SRBs were inferior to the Scorpion in racing, the Fox was "inferior" to the RC10 in racing. As though racing success defined model success, and is now what defines historical success.

But I think it's a really wrong way to look back at everything, and we even risk tainting things a little bit.

Racing was one part of the history. But engineering, appearance, and fun factor, were other things. And IMHO, are actually much more interesting things to look back on (and even measure) when talking about game changers.

Speed isn't everything after all. And besides, the vast majority of the public were completely oblivious to the (small) world of top-level racing, in the 80s.

Heck, even the off-road "World Championships" of 1989 took place in a dusty, dingy track, in a pretty mediocre suburb of Sydney. I'm not sure what it's like there today, perhaps they have stadium seating. But I went there frequently back in those days, as it was a regular venue for something my sister was into. It was just another boring showground, in another boring suburb. It had all the glamour of an outdoor dirt parking lot under some trees, near a field. With maybe a public toilet nearby. It was certainly no Monaco And yet that was the venue for the "Olympics" of 1/10 off road R/C racing, during the pinnacle of its popularity.

H.

[Mokei Kagaku]

I don't think the words "should" and "should have" really befit the history side of things. Like, I don't really think Tamiya "should" have done anything different to what they did, with regard to the SRBs. They did what they thought was right at the time.

Exactly! Tamiya did what they thought was right at the time! And I dare say, they thought it was right because they lacked the experience and knowledge that Kyosho had at the same time. After all, the Scorpion was released relatively soon after the SRB, so we are talking the same period in RC-history. I should have emphasized that my main criticism of the SRB's design isn't because of it being relatively unsuitable for racing though. My fault! Because, even as a "fun" model, the Scorpion is so much better designed and choice of materials is vastly superior, resulting in a much lighter (higher speed and quicker acceleration, but also long run times and less damage upon impact) and durable model.

The much more realistic (for a VW-based buggy) rear suspension (which also works a lot better), is also a major advantage even if thought of as a scale model (and not a racer). Or the much cheaper and tougher radiobox, which in real life was as "water proof" (or lack thereof) as the brittle, bulky and expensive SRB radiobox, which was all the more susceptible to breakage because of the excessive flexing of the chassis plate. Sure, the transparent radiobox with its "water proof" look (letting water in, but not out!) is lot cuter! Or the tough 3-part rear cage of the Scorpion vs. the brittle rear cage of the SRB. Light, tough and cheap Kydex front bumper vs. heavy, bulky, (relatively) expensive and anything but durable SRB bumper, which is neither realistic, nor protecting the fragile front suspension well! The SRB front suspension is admittedly a lot more authentic, but also easily bent and by far not as reliable as the elegantly designed and robust front suspension of the Scorpion.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the SRB and have continuously done so since I got my first Sand Scorcher shortly after its release and I've had SRB's all the time since. And if I was allowed to keep only one RC-car, it would be a Sand Scorcher. Still, peering past my red/blue starshaped glasses, I can't help thinking that Kyosho demonstrated a vastly superior understanding of what it took to make a good buggy with the Scorpion, regardless of for fun or racing, with the only drawbacks being the SRB's much nicer bodies and realistic front suspension. The SRB was certainly state of the art for electric 1/10 scale buggies when it was released, but technically totally obsolete when Kyosho released the Scorpion "two minutes" later. Not only for racers, but for practically all owners who wanted to run a quick and durable model with as little effort and money spent on repairs as possible, but could live with the much less nice bodies.

So many years later, one could easily think that the RC10 surpassed the Scorpion in a similar way, but unlike the SRB and the Scorpion, which were released in the same period of RC-history, the RC10 was one generation later and at a time when 1/10 buggy racing was well established. Still a strong demonstration of the massive knowledge, dedication and many years of experience at Associated though! I think there hasn't been and probably won't be a similar leap ahead in RC-car technology ever.

[Saito2]

Some good responses. I'm afraid my original intent of the thread was lost a bit though (although any vintage discussion is good discussion). I was originally looking at what vehicles in Tamiya's line were different from what Tamiya was doing beforehand. For instance, I'm well aware the XR311 had 4 wheel independent suspension (I have 2) and was out before the SRBs but the XR311 was still a fragile scale model body atop an electric-driven frame not too unlike earlier efforts. The SRB was a game changer though. The mechanicals were more realistic and it was far more durable than the XR311.

Somehow things got into other manufactures which wasn't my intent. I didn't mean for this to turn into a thread about whether or not the Tamiya model in question succeeded in the overall market at which the vehicles were targeted. I was aiming for more of a look at Tamiya design evolution vs revolution.