beefmuffin 1156 Posted November 27, 2015 For a while it has been nagging at me every time I walk into the garage and see my shelves of vintage shelfers the fact that two of them aren't completely vintage originals. Specifically the Hornet and Frog. The Frog is all original, but has a re-re body + decals. But the Hornet I built before I developed my collection enough to really divide between runners and shelfers and it's mostly re-re including the body - it even has a 2.4ghz Rx and an ESC fitted. Which means it's basically a runner, and that's where it lives now. I'll build a re-re Frog to use the current "shelfer" Frog shell and locate an original Frog body set at some point when I find the right deal to jump on. Well, on the Hornet front the "right deal to jump on" popped up a couple weeks ago on eBay as a partially built vintage original Hornet kit, which had only been barely started being built and was complete - in other words perfect for a vintage build, without having to sacrifice an intact NIB kit or pay the premium for one. What I didn't realize at the time is that this particular Hornet kit was an Mk1! I didn't really even think about it until reading through Hibernaculum's excellent resource on telling the differences between the different vintage makes and the differences with the re-re. But I was curious so I had a look and lo and behold I got my hands on a complete Mk1 Hornet kit that I intended to build anyway for $100 + 14.50 postage. And... as a bonus it came with a brand new in box hump battery, which alone was worth the majority of the price paid for the lot and didn't need so I sold it and was snatched up quickly for a good price ($55) by our own Yonez, PLUS the Hornet came with a 1980 Tamiya Guide Book! In other words, the Mk1 Hornet kit was essentially free. Not a bad deal! My guess is that when whoever was building it many years ago got to the part with the bare wires on the motor they closed it up and that was it. Here is a pic from the listing... and below it are my pics of the kit, battery and guidebook. Here are my pics noting the Mk1 tells, as described by Hibernaculum's website: It's interesting that the body shell and wing have nothing at all embossed in the plastic. The lexan also feels especially thick/strong to me... Here's the bonus NIB hump pack battery: and last but not least the 1980 Tamiya Guidebook! 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mongoose1983 3335 Posted November 27, 2015 Ooooohhhhhh... What a fantastic find!! Congrats, Ben! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hibernaculum 933 Posted November 28, 2015 Cracking find. I particularly love these kinds of "time capsule" finds - either partially built, or used, but that come with all the period bits and pieces - radio, battery, box, catalogues, etc.I say "time capsule" because they were so obviously bought (with a mindset of "I'm going to buy everything I need"), used a little, and then stored away in a cupboard ever since. Their owners were usually only interested in R/C for a little while, perhaps while growing up, or maybe the original owner has even passed away.Either way, the nature of the original purchase means the owner is highly unlikely to have cared about the modern R/C market, or stuff like reissues, making the car unlikely to have any mixture of reissue parts. So they are often just as "pure" vintage for collectors, as a NIB vintage kit, yet more affordable.In some ways, time capsule finds can even be more fun than say, a sealed vintage kit. Because you get all this extra vintage goodness in the form of paperwork, battery boxes, leaflets, sometimes a purchase receipt... lots of little things from the era, untouched for years. I am always amazed by the purchase receipts because they give the exact date of purchase, the (long lost) store it came from, etc.Anyway, this one's a textbook example of a time-capsule find. Well done grabbing it :)One last thing though - is there a fuse on the MSC? 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matman 1498 Posted November 28, 2015 Cracking find. I particularly love these kinds of "time capsule" finds - either partially built, or used, but that come with all the period bits and pieces - radio, battery, box, catalogues, etc. I say "time capsule" because they were so obviously bought (with a mindset of "I'm going to buy everything I need"), used a little, and then stored away in a cupboard ever since. Their owners were usually only interested in R/C for a little while, perhaps while growing up, or maybe the original owner has even passed away. Either way, the nature of the original purchase means the owner is highly unlikely to have cared about the modern R/C market, or stuff like reissues, making the cars unlikely to have any mixture of reissue parts. So they are often just as "pure" vintage for collectors as a NIB vintage kit, yet more affordable. In some ways, time capsule finds can even be more fun than say, a sealed vintage kit. Because you get all this extra vintage goodness in the form of paperwork and battery boxes... lots of little things from the era, untouched for years. This one's a textbook example of all of that, well done finding it :) One last thing though - is there a fuse on the MSC? Yep , you can see that in Pic 6 in the blue bag ... WOW !! Very nice find Mr Beef . I love looking at this type of stuff , This is the way i would leave it , still & maybe this is why people like to keep things NIB . 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hibernaculum 933 Posted November 28, 2015 Awesome. Yeah I was looking on a phone before, and wasn't sure if I could see the fuse. Mk1 approved 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mokei Kagaku 2706 Posted November 28, 2015 Excellent find, no question! And I in no way want to be mean, but the white balljoints indicate that it's not an initial release or very early production Hornet. I don't remember when Tamiya switched from black to white balljoints, but I do know that the Hornet was first released with black ones. As pointed out already, it's a pretty early one, with the fuse, lack of motor connectors and no resistor cage. Absolutely fantastic find at a great price! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chickenman242tk 266 Posted November 29, 2015 Im glad the money i paid you went to a worthy cause lol. Looking forward to the build ben 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hibernaculum 933 Posted November 29, 2015 Excellent find, no question! And I in no way want to be mean, but the white balljoints indicate that it's not an initial release or very early production Hornet. I don't remember when Tamiya switched from black to white balljoints, but I do know that the Hornet was first released with black ones. As pointed out already, it's a pretty early one, with the fuse, lack of motor connectors and no resistor cage. Absolutely fantastic find at a great price! Thanks for this Mokei - very interesting. Can you give a link to a Hornet (e.g in a showroom) with the black balljoints? More than happy to update my "Mk" notes, if this difference can be confirmed. Either way though, I would not worry Ben. If yours ends up being Mk2 by a whisker, it will still be a very early Hornet with the majority of early bits. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mokei Kagaku 2706 Posted November 29, 2015 Thanks for this Mokei - very interesting. Can you give a link to a Hornet (e.g in a showroom) with the black balljoints? More than happy to update my "Mk" notes, if this difference can be confirmed. If I recall correctly, the balljoints remained black for quite a while after the release of the Hornet, so there got to be some owners of early NIBs here who can confirm it. I've checked all the NIB entries, but unfortunately none of them are displayed in such a way that the balljoints can be seen. I don't have a NIB Hornet myself, but I have an early new built one with black balljoints, but there are two problems. It wouldn't prove anything and it's located at my father's house 1400km away with most of my models, so I won't be able to provide pics before I'm "driving home for Christmas" (pun intended, though that's exactly what I will do). So until a possible owner of a very early NIB steps in with photographic evidence, all I can provide is my own statement that I know early Hornets came with black balljoints and some strong indications. Like boxart drawing (yes, no proof!), assembly manual pictures and and illustration from the Japanese Tamiya News No. 157, Oct. 1984, that I just scanned. I have a pretty complete collection of Tamiya catalogs, guide books, "Perfect Albums", "Complete Works" books and so on, but I couldn't find a single pic of the Hornet that shows it from an angle that allows to see the balljoints! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mokei Kagaku 2706 Posted November 29, 2015 I don't want to hijack your thread Beef, but when talking about The Hornet and balljoints, I thought this might be entertaining, if not interesting. 2mm Tamiya balljoints in different colours from my ball-link box. None are dyed, all original colours from Tamiya. More colours might exist, but not that I know. Secondly a scan of the November 1980 issue of Tamiya News with the noseart with the text that would be chosen as the Hornet wingslogan roughly four years later. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mongoose1983 3335 Posted November 29, 2015 All of the early Hornet and Grasshopper buggies that I have/had came with white balljoints. I am now very curious about the subject, these buggies have been in production for such a long period of time it seems like... forever. The box arts and catalog pictures might and might not be accurate to what was actually available for buyers. The clear windshield for the Black Foot being one perennial frustration. Oh, well. Now if this thing about black balljoints can be precised I know I will be happy, or maybe not so much. I'd be sad to learn none of my buggies are originals Now BEEF, let us see the building process of that fantastic kit 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beefmuffin 1156 Posted November 30, 2015 No worries guys! This is exactly a perfect discussion for this thread. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mokei Kagaku 2706 Posted November 30, 2015 All of the early Hornet and Grasshopper buggies that I have/had came with white balljoints. I am now very curious about the subject, these buggies have been in production for such a long period of time it seems like... forever. The box arts and catalog pictures might and might not be accurate to what was actually available for buyers. The clear windshield for the Black Foot being one perennial frustration. Oh, well. Now if this thing about black balljoints can be precised I know I will be happy, or maybe not so much. I'd be sad to learn none of my buggies are originals Now BEEF, let us see the building process of that fantastic kit An early Grasshopper should definitely also have black balljoints, but there are other ways of identifying an early Grasshopper too. Maybe you know them, but if not: 1. Early GH (and Pajero) gearbox housings have much shallower reinforcing ribs along the wheelaxle tubes. 2. Early GH chassises didn't have the hole for the Hornet front body post, and were marked differently, although I don't remember the exact differences in the markings. 3. Early GH's (and Pajeros) came with just a plastic 850 bushing and no 850 bronze bushing for the spur gear. Even when well lubricated, the 850 plastic bushing tended to melt and deform, causing Tamiya to include an 850 bronze bushing later in the production. 4. Early GH (and Pajero) MSC's came without battery connector, with the choice between the 6V and 7.2V connector described in the manual. 5. Early GH's might have come with the slightly narrower bumper without reinforcing ribs that the Frog and Brat were also first released with, but it's simply too long ago for me to sure. 6. Just like early Hornets, early GH's (and Pajeros) came without resistor cages. That's all I remember at the moment, but there might have been other differences too. EDIT: I just dug out a news leaflet, where the Grasshopper is the newest/highest item number model. The pic shows it with the early GH-specific chassis tub and shallow rib gearbox and the revised wider and reinforced bumper. So I reckon the GH came with that bumper from the very beginning. If so, the early type bumper was exclusive to the Quattro, Ascona, Brat and Frog, as no model later than the GH had it. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beefmuffin 1156 Posted December 1, 2015 Im glad the money i paid you went to a worthy cause lol. Looking forward to the build ben LOL the circle of thug Tamiya life! It's actually kind of amazing that we can even do these long distance trades and sales these days so easily, as non-professionals, casually like it's no big deal. On the circle of life, I often wonder when I get my hands on a vintage part that I know I've owned previously and traded or sold, if I've ever ended up buying back a part I'd actually sold in the past! I have a feeling it's happened once or twice. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chickenman242tk 266 Posted December 1, 2015 The internet has made this so much easier ,i know for a fact that without your help i wouldn't have so many old school rigs just a bunch of traxxas.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hibernaculum 933 Posted December 1, 2015 Excellent info Mokei. That Tamiya News with the slogan on it was great to see as well. An early Grasshopper should definitely also have black balljoints, but there are other ways of identifying an early Grasshopper too. Maybe you know them, but if not: 1. Early GH (and Pajero) gearbox housings have much shallower reinforcing ribs along the wheelaxle tubes. 2. Early GH chassises didn't have the hole for the Hornet front body post, and were marked differently, although I don't remember the exact differences in the markings. 3. Early GH's (and Pajeros) came with just a plastic 850 bushing and no 850 bronze bushing for the spur gear. Even when well lubricated, the 850 plastic bushing tended to melt and deform, causing Tamiya to include an 850 bronze bushing later in the production. 4. Early GH (and Pajero) MSC's came without battery connector, with the choice between the 6V and 7.2V connector described in the manual. 5. Early GH's might have come with the slightly narrower bumper without reinforcing ribs that the Frog and Brat were also first released with, but it's simply too long ago for me to sure. 6. Just like early Hornets, early GH's (and Pajeros) came without resistor cages. That's all I remember at the moment, but there might have been other differences too. EDIT: I just dug out a news leaflet, where the Grasshopper is the newest/highest item number model. The pic shows it with the early GH-specific chassis tub and shallow rib gearbox and the revised wider and reinforced bumper. So I reckon the GH came with that bumper from the very beginning. If so, the early type bumper was exclusive to the Quattro, Ascona, Brat and Frog, as no model later than the GH had it. I have updated my Grasshopper page with this info, except for #5 (not applicable) and #4 (I just want to check my kits first, then I will add it) Re: #1 - this is the B parts. The taller buttress version is from the Lunch Box, and Tamiya began throwing these Lunch Box B Parts into Hornet and Grasshopper kits from 1987. The sprue itself has "1987 Tamiya" and "RCC Lunch Box" on it for this later edition. The earlier type has "RCC Grasshopper" on it and has the shallower buttresses, and a slightly different configuration to the parts on the sprue itself. One thing you missed - earliest Grasshopper had "Off Roader" embossed on chassis itself near the nose. This was soon changed to "Tamiya", and everything Mk2 onwards has "Tamiya". (Very few examples have "Off Roader"). The Hornet was totally exempt from this, and always had "Tamiya". I have an early new-built Grasshopper on that page (linked above), and (with the current Mk breakdown) it falls into "Mk2". It has white ball joints. But it definitely came with a fused MSC, black wheel bearings, no resistor cover etc. I also have an early built Hornet (not photographed) which was built from a kit and which I believe also has white ball joints. It came with a fused MSC and black wheel bearings (making it pretty early). I honestly have never seen the black ball joints in these kits, but I've included the info for now as you seem pretty positive about it All of my Mk1, Mk2, Mk3 etc designations are up for debate and adjustment, as new info is shared. It's a fiddly task, but certainly one I can never solve alone. (Geek fact - the official Tamiya "spare parts box" labels Ball joints as "4mm Adjusters" (not ball joints). If you guys have not see those parts boxes before, I'll take a photo. They were never available to the public, only retailers.) Last thing - I think all these little differences are interesting, but some are probably more "major" than others. I think if anyone can get as far as having an original Grasshopper with a few visible early bits: - Early B parts - Fused MSC - 6v battery connector You are doing very well. If you are able to get all the little early bits, you're probably using magic or voodoo. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beefmuffin 1156 Posted December 1, 2015 All of my Mk1, Mk2, Mk3 etc designations are up for debate and adjustment, as new info is shared. It's a fiddly task, but certainly one I can never solve alone. To me - although I'm FAR less of an expert than you guys - I'd consider the difference of just the ball joint / adjusters being black or white a difference of Mk1 and Mk1.5 more than a full Mk2... but that's just me. I guess orthodoxy may demand only integer Mk versions! (Geek fact - the official Tamiya "spare parts box" labels Ball joints as "4mm Adjusters" (not ball joints). If you guys have not see those parts boxes before, I'll take a photo. They were never available to the public, only retailers.) Actually I snapped a picture of one of mine today totally unrelated, since I pieced together some NOS bits for chickenman242tk for a Boomerang build he is working on. I lucked into a pair of them a few years back and they are super helpful! As I joked with kontemax recently in P.M. I have a lifetime supply of Hotshot bumper stays. (HUGE image below, for zooming!) 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mokei Kagaku 2706 Posted December 1, 2015 I have updated my Grasshopper page with this info, except for #5 (not applicable) and #4 (I just want to check my kits first, then I will add it) With regard to #4, I can't really prove it as I have neither an early Grasshopper, nor a this early manual (or scan of manual). My earliest manual shows the MSC with a 6V connector mounted. I just remember that the first Grasshopper kits I built (for my employer), didn't come with battery connector, which isn't much of a proof! However, I can help with a strong indication that it's correct with a scan from an initial/early production Pajero manual: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mokei Kagaku 2706 Posted December 1, 2015 And again a bit outside of the topic, because it's at least slightly related. From the Tamiya News no. 157, October 1984 (scanned it LAAAARGE, just in case someone should want to use it for a conversion): 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mokei Kagaku 2706 Posted December 1, 2015 I have one of the mentioned parts box too, but a somewhat later version, with no space for the 4mm adjuster / 2mm balljoint. I reckon it's from about 1985, as it has spaces for the parts that were first introduced with the Hotshot, like the MSC brass screw, c-clips and motor adjuster plates. Btw, I remember a colleague even clumsier than myself tipped one of these boxes over, landing upside down on the floor (with open cover). He spent some time sorting the parts. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beefmuffin 1156 Posted December 1, 2015 I have one of the mentioned parts box too, but a somewhat later version, with no space for the 4mm adjuster / 2mm balljoint. I reckon it's from about 1985, as it has spaces for the parts that were first introduced with the Hotshot, like the MSC brass screw, c-clips and motor adjuster plates. Btw, I remember a colleague even clumsier than myself tipped one of these boxes over, landing upside down on the floor (with open cover). He spent some time sorting the parts. Mokei, Mokei,,, your snap pins and set plates look a little weird! GREAT SHAME! LOL 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWarty 1325 Posted December 1, 2015 This thread rocks! So much information and knowledge. I'm building a Hornet right now, so it's great to see all of this. Beef, Triple-Word-Score on that vintage find! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hibernaculum 933 Posted December 1, 2015 With regard to #4, I can't really prove it as I have neither an early Grasshopper, nor a this early manual (or scan of manual). My earliest manual shows the MSC with a 6V connector mounted. I just remember that the first Grasshopper kits I built (for my employer), didn't come with battery connector, which isn't much of a proof! However, I can help with a strong indication that it's correct with a scan from an initial/early production Pajero manual: So sorry Mokei, I made a mistake earlier - I actually meant to write #3 as "I will check this later" - the item you mentioned about the spur gear bearing.I completely agree on the battery connector issue - thank you for the scans anyway!That alternative Paris Dakar Pajero is cool too, and seems to be the 1984 entry into the race (the kit depicts the 1983 entry). I have one of the mentioned parts box too, but a somewhat later version, with no space for the 4mm adjuster / 2mm balljoint. I reckon it's from about 1985, as it has spaces for the parts that were first introduced with the Hotshot, like the MSC brass screw, c-clips and motor adjuster plates.Btw, I remember a colleague even clumsier than myself tipped one of these boxes over, landing upside down on the floor (with open cover). He spent some time sorting the parts. I think the two parts box types (I have a couple of each) probably came out at the same time, as they seem to be a complimentary pair. And the ones I have all came from hobby shops that closed down. And it seems to have been commonplace for a hobby shop to receive one of each box type - to store common parts. They definitely seem to date from around 1985 based on the parts that are labeled.I think both of you guys have posted the same box (the one with mainly smaller items like screws). The other box contains spaces for some slightly larger pieces from that era. If you haven't seen it before, I'll take a pic, but Ben may also have one.And yes - it's a pain if you tip these boxes over! But fortunately if you are careful to close the latches, they are truly excellent boxes for tiny parts. I think they also reflect the wonderful early days of Tamiya. I mean, special boxes for parts, with labels printed on the lid.... Unless they continued to make 100 different boxes in future they were never going to be able to cater for all future parts as there is too much variety. The second box even has a compartment especially for things like Hotshot bumper stays, and other Hotshot parts, as you mentioned. But it was perfect for the time. And it's like the other things Tamiya used to do back in the vintage days, when they only had 50 or so different R/C cars (not 1000) - like embossing parts (e.g. chassis) with specific car names, and labelling spare parts (MSCs, tyres etc) as being for specific cars. As much as this system wasn't future-proof when hundreds more cars were releaed, I loved the way they used to do this in the beginning. It's kind of a defining aspect of the "vintage era" to me. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beefmuffin 1156 Posted December 1, 2015 I think both of you guys have posted the same box (the one with mainly smaller items like screws). The other box contains spaces for some slightly larger pieces from that era. If you haven't seen it before, I'll take a pic, but Ben may also have one. Yep, indeed I do! I was just pulling Mokei's leg before about things being out of order... my boxes are in complete disarray. Really need to reorganize them. ALSO interestingly, I think this is according to Crash Cramer (Chris) there was actually a 3rd box which is the rarest one. He was excited when I got mine and wanted to check it I found one of the mythical #3's (nope, obviously). But maybe someone was pulling his leg about there being a 3rd - anyone know?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hibernaculum 933 Posted December 1, 2015 I don't think there's a 3rd type. Or at least, I hope not as I don't have it There was another type in the early 2000s, a totally different box (clear/white and smaller) but with no specific component labelling on the lid. It had "Tamiya R/C Spare Parts" or something similar on it, and even this one is hard to find nowadays. That's the only other type I know of. It's a good box as well - very handy if you can find one. But not quite as cool and old-school vintage as the original "Tamiya RC Parts Box" 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites