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Lubrication confusion

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[For the Inside]------------------------------------------------------

We all use ball bearings.  Why? 

Because they slide better.  Just a little less friction causes the car to accelerate 15% faster, achieve 15% higher top speed, and the battery lasts 5% longer.  Ball bearings are the first upgrade that every RCer would do.  

Then we slather peanut butter all over the gears to make it go slower than before... lol...  (I'm guilty of doing this too when I was younger) 

oxPo2ng.jpg

Jokes aside (above isn't peanut butter, it's automotive grease designed for much much bigger gears), heavy grease like this will make a 13.5t motor run like 15.5t.  

My point is, you want stuff at least as good as Tamiya grease.  

1)  It should be slippery.  Not sticky.  Think of oil on your nose or ears.  Why do we have oil on them?  Because we don't want our nose or ears to catch on anything. Oil makes them slippery, and they slide away. (Otherwise you'd see a lot more people with torn nose and ears)  Think of your nose when you think of how slippery gears should be.  

2)  It should not disappear.  You might touch your nose 50 times in a day, but the oil disappears.  At the end of the day, your hand isn't all sticky like duct tape.  Unlike oil on your nose, we want the slippery thing to last. 

3)  It should not breakdown plastic.  

Tamiya ceramic grease that's included with every kit does these 3 things very well.  Not the best, but very good.  

I think Teflon does better.   

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I still have older version from 20 years ago, that works just as well.  So I know this stuff lasts as well as Tamiya grease.  

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You need very little of it.  I basically make the plastic look "wet" with it.  This is my go-to grease for internal gears.  Gears turn almost as if they are not greased, but it runs quieter.  Below is fully greased with it. 

ItuZ7BQ.jpg

 

[For the Outside]------------------------------------------------------

You wouldn't want things that attract dirt on the outside.    

Graphite is great lubricant.  (Also, you might have seen it somewhere in your home)  

HJc7Y6i.jpg

I have been using pencil lead to lubricate locks for years.  Grind the tip and feel the powder between your fingers, it's actually very smooth material that tends to stick to surface better than dirt.  It will wash away so you would want to do it often.  But it's simple; just rub the pencil tip to the slots in drive cups and dog bones.  They will last almost as good as using grease. (or you can use already powered version)  

 

[For Differentials]------------------------------------------------------

You'd want something opposite from gear grease. You don't want diff grease "slippery."  You want it "Sticky."  

[1]  Tamiya sells differential putty.  These almost lock it.  2WD buggies would go places they couldn't go before, because these putties prevent diff-unloading. One wheel will propel the buggy.  (Tamiya even includes some for Dynahead; even if 5 tires lose traction, 1 tire will move it forward)  Great for off road stuff.

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[2] If you want something less putty-y, then you might want 3Racing stuff. It's more gooey.  

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[3]  Or if you want less sticky, AW grease would work.  (AW seems perfect for M-chassis) 

These sticky diff greases should help with RWD chassis like M06 and M08.  As diffs become stiff, chassis run a bit more stable.  Less fish-tailing.  (In fact, 2020 VW Golf GTI uses diff-locking to help with acceleration without the car leaning to left or right; though it's FWD)  

@Carmine A's Anti-Seize grease seems like a great discovery.  It is whole lot cheaper than AW.  If you want something close to AW, but a little less sticky, (for M-chassis or other on-road cars), then I'd go for that.  

 

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On 9/10/2020 at 6:20 PM, Juggular said:

Think of oil on your nose or ears.  Why do we have oil on them?  Because we don't want our nose or ears to catch on anything. Oil makes them slippery, and they slide away. (Otherwise you'd see a lot more people with torn nose and ears) 

 

This is exactly the kind of helpful wisdom that I came to Tamiyaclub for. Thank you! :lol:

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@Juggular I can "officially" report NO appreciable loss of speed, using the Anti Seize Lubricant on my M05 Gearbox!! 👍👍  Even more significant, I opened the Gearbox back up after four 3300 MAh 3S Batteries - and the Lube was not only NOT all splattered against the inner Gearbox walls...

But was STILL fully adhered to every Tooth of every Gear!! IMG_20200913_031553.thumb.jpg.cc17a26a0991907df052f49be8bed705.jpg

So I schmeared a little more on. 😊  I'll also try the older trick that some of us use AW Grease for, and paint it along the Gearbox seams, to see if it's as effective as a dust sealer as AW Grease is.... 

I also coated the A Arm Pins with it as well.  {NOW, this stuff sticks well, to EVERYTHING! Including black Plastic Parts, Fingers, Shirts, Furniture!!

So some care should be taken. I'd suggest an old fine Paintbrush that you'll never use for Paint again. I used my Fingers and Tissues. NOT prudent!! 😜

Now... For High Performance/High Efficiency applications, your advice to use PTFE Teflon based Lubricants (like Labelle #106) is ideal.  AND, if I had the Money and/or patience to pulverize Pencils.... Dry Graphite is absolutely superior as Suspension and Steering Pivot Lubricant - for the obvious reason that it DOESN'T allow dust and dirt to accumulate and bind it up. 👍👍

..... In my own personal experiences, I cannot see any positive long term effectiveness of Tamiya Ceramic Grease. MAYBE it leaves an invisible Film - like Teflon?? I just never saw it. However I have seen unusually high wear on some Parts that I used Ceramic Grease on. 

COMBINING Knowledge and Experience - this could be a definitive Resource for Lubricating all the various parts of our Vehicles!! Given Education, different Regions and Experiences, we've all in our work, can contribute invaluable information that individually we might have never had the opportunity to use before!!! 😊💯

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On 9/10/2020 at 4:20 AM, Juggular said:

2)  It should not disappear.  You might touch your nose 50 times in a day, but the oil disappears.  At the end of the day, your hand isn't all sticky like duct tape.  Unlike oil on your nose, we want the slippery thing to last.

I keep waiting for Nostrol brand oil to make its debut, @Juggular:lol:

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This thread answer a lot of my questions.

For now, I have used dry teflon bike chain lube for metal gears, because I have tons of them for my bikes. :D

But I will be looking for lithium based molybdenum grease, will it work for both metal and plastic gears? 

I didn't buy the Tamiya grease because I knew there has to be cheaper option out there. haha.

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It's funny. Back when I was younger, there was no way I could get my Dad to buy a 3 gram tube of grease for $6 when he had a garage full of lubricants. 3- in-1 oil, wd-40, bearing grease, moly lube, white grease for car door locks, graphite lube, etc. So, I guess we are just trained to find the cheaper/better option. :D 

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LOL, I used to (for 40 years) use any old grease that I had to hand, mostly from the workshop, ex-1:1 vehicle stuff. Never really had a problem with it, I have thundershots that have been running for 20 years on Land Rover thick bearing grease!

However, recently I started doing GPS speed tests on my buggies and realised that slapping a load of heavy 1:1 bearing or propshaft grease onto RC buggies slowed them down considerably.

After washing all the old stuff off, cleaning and drying all parts then re-assembling with the correct RC car ball diff or gearbox grease it massively improves top speed. I am not exaggerating when I say that I've seen 3-4mph gains from simply using the thinner modern hudy greases compared to my old Land Rover stuff. What I can't say is how long the parts will last, that thick old grease might well have slowed them down but it sure as badword kept them going for yonks longer than Tamiya grease would have. :D

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On 9/10/2020 at 12:04 AM, Carmine A said:

NOT much to add.... Especially after @Effigy3 nearly DEFINITIVE Answer!! Quite thorough.

@DK308 gave a great illustrated explanation as well..... In fact EVERYONE has been they're typical HELPFUL selves!!! 😁👍👍

I recently discovered something that I've actually been using for over 40 years as an Auto Mechanic... IMG_20200909_103950.thumb.jpg.9c00c48226c5b51297eac7761a609175.jpg

As those of us who have bought Tamiya AW Grease - it's #$&£$!! EXPENSIVE! And for a TINY Pot or Tube. 

HOWEVER... Permatex Anti-Seize Lubricant is the SAME Chemical composition, a heavy Molybdenum Grease - just a little thinner than AW Grease.......

BUT - it only costs about $5.00 USD, for a One Ounce Tube!! You can fill about 15 of those little Tamiya Pots with one Tube of this! 😊 AW Grease, although a bit thicker, is outrageously more expensive!  It's really great because it's also got excellent bonding properties. It doesn't just fling off after 2 Batteries... IMG_20200909_133610.thumb.jpg.a60034641fff022acc382b9838587e52.jpg

.... It wouldn't surprise me if you could also use the Permatex to seal Gearboxes and Diff Cases, like some of us do with AW Grease. AGAIN, at a fraction of the cost!!

Yeah. I started using this on my gearboxes. So far so good. 

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1 hour ago, Exit13 said:

Yeah. I started using this on my gearboxes. So far so good. 

Im glad to hear that! It's still firmly adhered to my Gears, since August of last year. 

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With diffs especially I have stopped trying to make a diff do more than it was designed for. I've tried packing gear diffs with grease to reduce the amount the diff unloads. All I ended up with was greasy diffs that were a nightmare to work on. So if I want a diff with limited slip I look for ball diff option or diffs that are tunable with diff fluid and go from there. My 4 speedway cars all have standard gear diffs in them and since I got rid of the packed grease and used a light grease or oil, I have found they perform just as well (for my purposes at least) with less maintenance and mess. 

I've stopped buying the RC grade gear and just use a light machine oil for bearings, Inox MX6 grease for plastic gears and a marine type grease for the bigger cars with metal gears.

And like the common theme here, less is more when it comes to grease.

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I use singer sewing machine high speed oil on my bearings 

and then whatever Tamiya give me on the rest ;)

JJ

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On 2/28/2021 at 10:57 PM, LeftyAl said:

With diffs especially I have stopped trying to make a diff do more than it was designed for. I've tried packing gear diffs with grease to reduce the amount the diff unloads. All I ended up with was greasy diffs that were a nightmare to work on. So if I want a diff with limited slip I look for ball diff option or diffs that are tunable with diff fluid and go from there.......

IF there's a Sealed Gear Diff option for your Cars, I couldn't recommend higher that you fit them. In my Racing experience, I've found Ball Diffs to be maintenance intensive, and more difficult to dial in. 

Sealed Gear Diffs, once you've got the right Weight Oil in them, are nearly maintenance free!

18 hours ago, Problemchild said:

I use singer sewing machine high speed oil on my bearings 

and then whatever Tamiya give me on the rest ;)

JJ

That's a great idea! I CRINGE when I watch Build Videos on YouTube, and constantly hear "Because I'm using Bearings, Lube is unnecessary"..... 

WHAT!!?? Try running the Wheel Bearings on your 1:1 Car completely Dry - and see how long they last! 😖

Ball Bearings NEED Oil!! A light Oil is best. If you can get Sealed Bearings - even better. They're harder to get the Oil in, but it STAYS in better than non Sealed. I've got the "advantage" of being a Diabetic... Medical Syringes work the best for getting oil into a Sealed Bearing. 😉

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I mostly use Lucas Red n Tacky and Super lube these days. Neither are "RC" grease but both work fine for me. NLGI consistency rating of 2 just like the many "RC" greases. In fact, many "RC" greases are simply repackaged automotive/general purpose grease anyway. Fast Eddy grease is just Red n Tacky for example.

And despite the name, RnT is not gloopy or stodgy in any way. Once it has been run in and distributed across the gears as a film, it's incredibly smooth.

I've tried a few lighter greases too with NLGI 1 consistency but I find they don't stay put as well. Maybe ok for slower moving gears but not great for RC.

That's all generalising though, of course. NLGI is a range rather than an exact consistency, And there isn't necessarily a direct correlation between consistency and staying power etc. 

But those two have been working fine for me for a few years now. Nice smooth results, good staying power and no adverse reactions with plastic. They are also dramatically cheaper than "RC" greases. I certainly haven't experienced any adverse "drag". In fact, they both seem to offer very low friction once optimally distributed on the gears. 

If I can be bothered to relube a bearing, I use 3 in 1 oil which seems to work ok. I use a small fishing hook so I can take the shields off of rubber ones and clean them better. I've also found a TINY dab of grease will actually work quite well too if you're sure to be very sparing. Not as free spinning as oil but as smooth or smoother than they are when they actually come from most of the usual suspect suppliers. They nearly always have grease inside rather than oil.

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On 3/1/2021 at 12:35 AM, Willsls1 said:

I'm gonna try Froglube and see how that goes. 

Don't waste your time and money on that crap. Around 5 or so years ago, gun guys were raving about that crap on the boards then like a year or two later they were having issues with it gumming up the parts. Especially when it sits around something happens to that lube.

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3 hours ago, Carmine A said:

WHAT!!?? Try running the Wheel Bearings on your 1:1 Car completely Dry - and see how long they last! 😖

Try applying the load that your 1:1 car usually deals with on a daily basis to your 1:10 car (even with oil/grease) and see how long they last! RC cars take a miniscule fraction of the load of a full size car - it may only be 1/10th the length but it is 1/1000th the volume, mass, weight. They cannot be compared in this way as the loads are so different. 

Nobody in their right mind would consider running real car (or any heavy machinery) without lube in the bearings, but I haven't oiled the bearings in my rc cars - ever, except maybe after cleaning them and then only with very light oil like gt85. Nor do I use any grease on the gears. You absolutely don't need it. The only oil I use regularly is on the bushings in motors without ball bearings, and grease inside diffs when building them. 

This is my experience anyway, using my cars in club racing on and off for the past 20 years. 

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3 hours ago, mike in pa said:

Don't waste your time and money on that crap. Around 5 or so years ago, gun guys were raving about that crap on the boards then like a year or two later they were having issues with it gumming up the parts. Especially when it sits around something happens to that lube.

 

I know all about it bro. Was trying to be funny 🤣

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I strip, clean and lightly oil all my bearings from new before fitting. Bearings fully enclosed in gearboxes have both shields removed and all others only have rubber shields on outer faces.

Back in the eighties I always used unshielded bearings all round and flushed them with WD40 between heats, binning them after a days racing. (I used to get them cheap from a local engineering bearing supplier.)

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On 9/10/2020 at 12:04 AM, Carmine A said:

I recently discovered something that I've actually been using for over 40 years as an Auto Mechanic... IMG_20200909_103950.thumb.jpg.9c00c48226c5b51297eac7761a609175.jpg

As those of us who have bought Tamiya AW Grease - it's #$&£$!! EXPENSIVE! And for a TINY Pot or Tube. 

HOWEVER... Permatex Anti-Seize Lubricant is the SAME Chemical composition, a heavy Molybdenum Grease - just a little thinner than AW Grease.......

BUT - it only costs about $5.00 USD, for a One Ounce Tube!! You can fill about 15 of those little Tamiya Pots with one Tube of this! 😊 AW Grease, although a bit thicker, is outrageously more expensive!  It's really great because it's also got excellent bonding properties. It doesn't just fling off after 2 Batteries...

.... It wouldn't surprise me if you could also use the Permatex to seal Gearboxes and Diff Cases, like some of us do with AW Grease. AGAIN, at a fraction of the cost!!

Thank you! I just got back into this with a DT-03, and the only thing that is really interrupting my fun is getting stuck on a root/pinecone/whatever that stops the run until I get it loose by hand.  Well, and flipping it over, but my driving is slowly getting better... :D Tamiya AW grease seems to be the lightest people go for creating some limited slip in the gear diff.

The Permatex data sheet lists 1.13 specific gravity and 100,000-200,000 cPs, so ~88,000 to ~177,000 cSt.  Definitely on the light side of what I've been finding online, but a great, FREE (since I have this already) place to start!

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On 7/5/2021 at 11:50 AM, SlideWRX said:

Thank you! I just got back into this with a DT-03, and the only thing that is really interrupting my fun is getting stuck on a root/pinecone/whatever that stops the run until I get it loose by hand.  Well, and flipping it over, but my driving is slowly getting better... :D Tamiya AW grease seems to be the lightest people go for creating some limited slip in the gear diff.

The Permatex data sheet lists 1.13 specific gravity and 100,000-200,000 cPs, so ~88,000 to ~177,000 cSt.  Definitely on the light side of what I've been finding online, but a great, FREE (since I have this already) place to start!

Thanks for the MSDS Data!! That should help quite a few People understand better.  

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On 3/2/2021 at 10:24 AM, nowinaminute said:

I mostly use Lucas Red n Tacky and Super lube these days. Neither are "RC" grease but both work fine for me. NLGI consistency rating of 2 just like the many "RC" greases. In fact, many "RC" greases are simply repackaged automotive/general purpose grease anyway. Fast Eddy grease is just Red n Tacky for example.

And despite the name, RnT is not gloopy or stodgy in any way. Once it has been run in and distributed across the gears as a film, it's incredibly smooth.

I've tried a few lighter greases too with NLGI 1 consistency but I find they don't stay put as well. Maybe ok for slower moving gears but not great for RC.

That's all generalising though, of course. NLGI is a range rather than an exact consistency, And there isn't necessarily a direct correlation between consistency and staying power etc. 

But those two have been working fine for me for a few years now. Nice smooth results, good staying power and no adverse reactions with plastic. They are also dramatically cheaper than "RC" greases. I certainly haven't experienced any adverse "drag". In fact, they both seem to offer very low friction once optimally distributed on the gears. 

If I can be bothered to relube a bearing, I use 3 in 1 oil which seems to work ok. I use a small fishing hook so I can take the shields off of rubber ones and clean them better. I've also found a TINY dab of grease will actually work quite well too if you're sure to be very sparing. Not as free spinning as oil but as smooth or smoother than they are when they actually come from most of the usual suspect suppliers. They nearly always have grease inside rather than oil.

Took me ages to find this post lol

I want to retract my recommendation of Super Lube, or at least advise caution.

I have a cartridge of the stuff that is maybe 2/12 years old, and it has begun to separate quite a bit. I first realised when I picked up the cartridge and it nearly slipped out of my hand! There's a nice puddle of oil on the shelf, too!

I contacted the manufacturer, and they basically shrugged it off by saying it has past it's "shelf life" which I found odd as I have other greases that are much, much older and haven't separated like this and also, they claim resistance to separation as one of it's strong points "not run, drip, evaporate or form gummy deposits, and will not melt or separate.""

The strange thing is that prior to this, I had bought a small metal tin of the stuff from an ebay seller and it was good to the last drop and never separated. When I used it up, I got another tin and it began to separate within months. The seller insisted he was still decanting from vats of genuine Super Lube, but I found the stark difference suspicious, so I decided to "cut out the middle man" and buy some for myself, but now the same thing is happening (although it took longer to happen)

I wonder if maybe the formula changed or there was a dodgy batch?

It has always been stored indoors so very mild storage conditions WELL within manufacturer specs.

Or maybe it IS normal and I'm complaining about nothing? All I know is I have a canister of Lucas Red n Tacky that is still absolutely perfect despite being older. Also a tin of Carlube MP2 which is older still, but shows no signs of separating. The same can be said for every single tube of Tamiya "standard grease" I've come across, including original 80s tubes.

It's a shame, because I used the Red n Tacky for most general purpose stuff, and the Super Lube was used for critical applications based on it's supposedly higher quality. I have heard from Lucas that RNT is plastic safe, but they aren't as vocal about it as Super Lube, so if, for example, I wanted to lube something with hard to find or irreplaceable gears, I would use the Super Lube, just to be on the safe side.

The Super Lube in the canister still seems usable to a degree, but after the oil loss, is understandably a little firmer and more wax like, which is going to result in more drag, so I will no longer use it for gears. 

Anyways, long story short, the grease I assumed was a cut above, and reserved for special applications, turns out to have a much shorter usable life than the cheap and cheerful red n tacky, along with pretty much every other grease I've used for RC!

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@nowinaminute It's funny that you brought this post back, I was just searching for some info about AW grease and this popped up in Google!

 And it turns out this was the thread I was looking for. Slide, did you try the AW grease in your DT, and what did you think of the effect? I'm trying to find something for my big heavy trail truck and I'm not sure if the AW grease will lock it up enough. I'll probably still try it, though.

On 7/5/2021 at 2:50 PM, SlideWRX said:

Thank you! I just got back into this with a DT-03, and the only thing that is really interrupting my fun is getting stuck on a root/pinecone/whatever that stops the run until I get it loose by hand.  Well, and flipping it over, but my driving is slowly getting better... :D Tamiya AW grease seems to be the lightest people go for creating some limited slip in the gear diff.

The Permatex data sheet lists 1.13 specific gravity and 100,000-200,000 cPs, so ~88,000 to ~177,000 cSt.  Definitely on the light side of what I've been finding online, but a great, FREE (since I have this already) place to start!

 

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On 4/1/2023 at 8:11 PM, nowinaminute said:

Super Lube in the canister still seems usable to a degree, but after the oil loss, is understandably a little firmer and more wax like, which is going to result in more drag, so I will no longer use it for gears. 

Thank you for bringing that up. 

For non-RC, metal-to-metal application, I mix Super Lube with machine oil. That mixture seems to last much longer than machine oil alone. 

I have several fans that's going 24/7/365.  [Radon is common in our area. Our level is halfway below the danger level. But no radon is safe. Even though we try to vent the house every day, I still have a fan circulating the air.  Radon decay daughters that can give you a lung cancer have electrical charges. As the fan makes air go around the family room, radon decay daughters would attach to the walls or even to fan blades, instead of our lungs. Half life is only 4 days.  A box fan is only $20 where as radon mitigation systems are about $500. With regular lube, a box fan lasts 7-8 years. I have another 5-inch fan that's blowing into the crawl space to stir the air at the source.]  And I have small dehumidifiers so that metal parts on Wild Willy 1 would not rust.  

One dehumidifier fan squeaks. Machine oils like 3-in-1 oil seems to last about 4-5 months before motor axles run dry.  But if I scoop a tiny dab of Super Lube oil and slather on the axle, and add a few drops of 3-in-1 oil, the watery mixture lasts 6-8 months before it squeaks again.  Just to be on the safe side, I try to lube every 5 months or so, but adding a bit of teflon (Super Lube) to machine oil, seems to be better than either alone. 

Unbeknownst to me, I've been adding machine oil to prevent Super Lube from drying out.  

 

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5 hours ago, El Gecko said:

And it turns out this was the thread I was looking for. Slide, did you try the AW grease in your DT, and what did you think of the effect? I'm trying to find something for my big heavy trail truck and I'm not sure if the AW grease will lock it up enough. I'll probably still try it, though.

I loved it!  For the first 3-4 battery packs.  Then it got loose.  I opened it up and the grease got all over the inside of the gear case. Even managed to get over to the spur gear...  The DT gear diff isn't sealed, and this definitely was not viscous enough to stay in.

It might not be enough for a trail truck; I put my car on a piece of narrow wood, to see if one wheel on the ground could drive it off.  Not stiff enough to keep the other wheel from spinning.

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