beefmuffin

Is it vintage? collective tips to help make informed decisions.

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Body info and pics have been added ^_^

Does anyone know if the original S parts (servo bits) and Z parts (driver) differ from the reissue S and Z parts in terms of the embossed writing? The original S and Z parts both have "RCC THE FROG" and "MADE IN JAPAN" embossed, and nothing else. What do the reissue parts have? They might be the only trees where the embossing is the same between vintage and reissue.

However, I believe the original Z parts is easily distinguishable from the reissue anyway because the reissue is made from that shiny bright-white plastic, whereas the original is that off-white matte vintage plastic.

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what a fantastic thread, and the frog differences page is looking great, however would a wiki not be better for this then people could add the easy stuff pretty quickly, and over time other info could be added, just a thought...

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A wiki may have worked, but I'd just be worried that it could become a free-for-all of edits over some of the more debateable minutiae :) And maybe the format/descriptions would end up lacking some consistency.

I guess with using this thread to argue out the details, then having one person compile them, the end result might be more standardized?

Anyway, since my previous message, I've adjusted the page a little so that the first page is an overview:

https://rctoymemories.com/2016/05/29/a-detailed-guide-to-vintage-vs-reissue-tamiya-rc-kits/

And each car will have its own page for the breakdown:

https://rctoymemories.com/the-frog-by-tamiya-vintage-vs-reissue/

I have a couple more little items from the blister pack to cover for the Frog, then it is done. And we can move onto the next car. 

Sand Scorcher perhaps?

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FYI - sorry again for being remiss in getting back to this.  Should have some time to post a few things over the next few days.

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11 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

A wiki may have worked, but I'd just be worried that it could become a free-for-all of edits over some of the more debateable minutiae :) And maybe the format/descriptions would end up lacking some consistency.

I guess with using this thread to argue out the details, then having one person compile them, the end result might be more standardized?

Anyway, since my previous message, I've adjusted the page a little so that the first page is an overview:

https://rctoymemories.com/2016/05/29/a-detailed-guide-to-vintage-vs-reissue-tamiya-rc-kits/

And each car will have its own page for the breakdown:

https://rctoymemories.com/the-frog-by-tamiya-vintage-vs-reissue/

I have a couple more little items from the blister pack to cover for the Frog, then it is done. And we can move onto the next car. 

Sand Scorcher perhaps?

This is off to a great start, Rob!  I wish this had existed when I first got serious about collecting.  The detail on the Frog one is fantastic.  :D

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OK, I don't have time at the moment to compose a very detailed post, and since we now have @Hibernaculum nicely organizing everything it'll probably make it easier to get more into the topic to worry less about composition and more about just supplying pics, details, etc.

So, I have two little bits to add at the moment.  One on the Frog (plus Hornet/Grasshopper...) and one on the Avante.

The bit on the Frog has already been covered: the bumper.  But here are a few more pics I took in case they are useful plus an example of a re-release bumper with the "nubs" attached.  Indeed, seeing the sprue nubs still attached isn't sufficient to know you're looking at a vintage bumper.

Which one is vintage?

27105360064_b2896502b8_b.jpg

The top one!

27105361094_17b926a474_b.jpg

Here's the bottom one...

27105359964_54d723fb90_b.jpg

 

Now onto the Avante, for the moment I have a set of both original and re-release decals.

27684163036_22ef054b49_b.jpg

27440009390_cd9c549d2f_b.jpg

27718016405_62d4af1dfb_b.jpg

 

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I just did a comparison of the vintage vs re-re rear Hotshot / Boomerang / Bigwig gearbox so adding those pics here.  The only visible differences are added braces (i) between the upper and lower suspension arm mounts on the re-re; (ii) an extra brace inside the upper arm mount on the re-re; and (iii) the re-re plastic is a bit shinier.  No other significant differences I detect.  There, of course, is a difference when using re-re vs vintage drive cups, driveshafts, axles, etc.  The most significant of which is that on the vintage outdrives you use C-clips to secure them inside the bearing housing, whereas with the re-re parts you use E-clips.

13517824_10157170278035165_350775662_o.jpg

13523736_10157170278040165_1330968762_o.jpg

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3 hours ago, beefmuffin said:

I just did a comparison of the vintage vs re-re rear Hotshot / Boomerang / Bigwig gearbox so adding those pics here.  The only visible differences are added braces (i) between the upper and lower suspension arm mounts on the re-re; (ii) an extra brace inside the upper arm mount on the re-re; and (iii) the re-re plastic is a bit shinier.  No other significant differences I detect.  There, of course, is a difference when using re-re vs vintage drive cups, driveshafts, axles, etc.  The most significant of which is that on the vintage outdrives you use C-clips to secure them inside the bearing housing, whereas with the re-re parts you use E-clips.

There's also the differences in the embossed writing on the sprue. (If you get time Ben, post those reissue numbers and codes from the sprue, and I will whack them into my next page). 

Let's also bite the bullet and say the next main focus car is: Hotshot vintage vs reissue. I will start setting up a page. (I know there are already one or two people waiting in the wings ready to braindump their knowledge about the Hotshot ^_^)

Also feel free to circle in red all areas of a reissue part photo that differ from the original (e.g. this). Any quick red circle will do though, doesn't have to be perfect. Keeping in mind that this extra effort only has to be done once, then it's done forever ;). Your photos above are great too Ben. It's great if they show detail - but even if close-ups are not possible, a red circle can be used to indicate the differences and the text I write with the pic can explain the change.

Sorry, I am being a bit of a slave driver :P Totally appreciate anyone with anything to add in this thread!

I was actually unaware of those brace differences, so that is pretty significant actually. I thought the gearbox halves were going to be the same apart from sprue/embossing, but yet again, Tamiya has remolded the reissue part with changes (compared to the original). As Fumito Taki said about another reissue (the Sand Scorcher):

"We never kept the original molds and tooling, so when Mr Tamiya wanted to re-release it I had to redesign it from the original in our Museum! Measuring it and using CAD, I did it in three weeks. I designed the original model using pen and paper." - Fumito Taki

I think most parts in the 80s were also molded differently to how they are mass-produced today. There was a lot more handwork involved back then, and more so the earlier back in time you go (e.g. SRB). I think this is another nice thing for vintage collectors to consider. @OCD summed it up well once when he wrote:

Quote

Something about knowing that the plastic came from the old original hand-fabricated molds means a lot to me in terms of nostalgia. The level of precision from this era is a truly unique moment in history. It was a boom time for Japan in those days, and Tamiya really seized the moment by creating such labor intensive designs. The amount of effort they put into their molds back then will never be equaled IMO. I also think things would have continued this way if it weren't for the Japanese economy taking a bad turn in the 90s. Instead we've progressed into a more mass consumer goods type of models

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No problem!  Will definitely do, Rob... but it might be a while to do a proper job of it.  If I can get to it this weekend I will, but have been hard-pressed for time not already spoken for.  Procrastinating on four 5min tasks somehow feels more acceptable than procrastinating on one 20min task.  LOL...

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Don't worry, I totally know the feeling. I am hoping to dedicate some more time this weekend too. There's no rush of course - we have already been struggling with all this information being strewn across dozens of threads/website, for many years. So just the fact that we are making the effort to finally collate it, is a great start I reckon ^_^ We'll just keep plodding along, even if it takes a month to do each car. And even if we get the most popular cars done first, I think that's going to be really valuable for a lot of people (there are constantly more newbies coming out of the woodwork who are interested in collecting originals, but don't know where to start).

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Beef and Hibernaculaum

Those two additional braces are introduced to the rear gearbox between the Boomerang and Bigwig. The plastic used seems to change to a 'shinier' material as well.

IMG_2258 e.jpg

IMG_2257 e.jpg

You can see the outside braces in the Bigwig manual.

terragni

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Wow, really??  I think for Hotshot parts especially we're going to need more gradation than vintage vs re-re.  Obviously there's Mk1 and Mk2 then onward, but I was unaware there were further multiple variants.  Thanks Mike (@terragni)!

Rob (@Hibernaculum), I wonder how best to organize / present the internal variations??

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4 hours ago, beefmuffin said:

I just did a comparison of the vintage vs re-re rear Hotshot / Boomerang / Bigwig gearbox so adding those pics here.  The only visible differences are added braces (i) between the upper and lower suspension arm mounts on the re-re; (ii) an extra brace inside the upper arm mount on the re-re; and (iii) the re-re plastic is a bit shinier.  No other significant differences I detect.  There, of course, is a difference when using re-re vs vintage drive cups, driveshafts, axles, etc.  The most significant of which is that on the vintage outdrives you use C-clips to secure them inside the bearing housing, whereas with the re-re parts you use E-clips.

13517824_10157170278035165_350775662_o.jpg

13523736_10157170278040165_1330968762_o.jpg

You can use the out drives on both , dog bones , Axles ( As long as it's re re Axles , Dog bones , Outdrives  , ALL re re )

& All the vintage is use all together ( Axles , Dog Bones , Outdrives ) As they are different sizes from vintage too re re .

IT'S the gear box is the difference ( RE RE ) that HAS to have the E Clip & the vintage gear box has to use the C Clip .  

As the re re gear box has been made to allow the E clip ( the space ) As the E Clip is wider . Hope this helps .

 

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5 minutes ago, matman said:

IT'S the gear box is the difference ( RE RE ) that HAS to have the E Clip & the vintage gear box has to use the C Clip .  

As the re re gear box has been made to allow the E clip ( the space ) As the E Clip is wider . Hope this helps .

Are you sure about that Mat (@matman)?  I used to think that too, but I changed my mind that the difference in thickness only relates to the placement and width of the groove in the outdrives so as to accommodate the C vs E clips.  I don't see any difference in thickness... although if you are sure I can figure out a way to compare measurements.

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51 minutes ago, terragni said:

Beef and Hibernaculaum

Those two additional braces are introduced to the rear gearbox between the Boomerang and Bigwig. The plastic used seems to change to a 'shinier' material as well.

IMG_2258 e.jpg

IMG_2257 e.jpg

You can see the outside braces in the Bigwig manual.

terragni

You have re re Gearbox's , I can see that in the pic . This is why it's shiner & also the front gearbox where the hex

brace goes is filled in , where the vintage had a gap . When i get some time i will pull out the two & show the differences .

The manual does not show the change & i have not seen the change in the car's i have pulled apart .

Not even in the hotshot 2 manual it show's the change .

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41 minutes ago, beefmuffin said:

Wow, really??  I think for Hotshot parts especially we're going to need more gradation than vintage vs re-re.  Obviously there's Mk1 and Mk2 then onward, but I was unaware there were further multiple variants.  Thanks Mike (@terragni)!

Rob (@Hibernaculum), I wonder how best to organize / present the internal variations??

I think for now the best thing to do (for now), is stick to the first question of "How does the reissue kit differ?".

Or to word it another way: "What changes were introduced by the reissue kit that were not present in any original release?"

I totally agree that the mk1 vs mk2 etc variants in the original models are very interesting. And we should (and will) catalogue them eventually. (I've tried already with a couple of them). But since the re-re kits are actually entirely new models in Tamiya's model history (as they have entirely new model numbers and even new names in some instances), and they are separated by a large period of time (anywhere from 15 years to almost 30 years), and the goal of this particular project is kinda to help collectors weed out the reissue stuff from the original stuff when building/buying/restoring... let's stick to that I reckon ;)

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matman, you can see that they are vintage by not having the second tab on the sprue with the batch #/production dates, also has the made in Japan stamp with no >PC< material stamp

terragni

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5 minutes ago, beefmuffin said:

Are you sure about that Mat (@matman)?  I used to think that too, but I changed my mind that the difference in thickness only relates to the placement and width of the groove in the outdrives so as to accommodate the C vs E clips.  I don't see any difference in thickness... although if you are sure I can figure out a way to compare measurements.

Yep i'm sure , we have gone through this before . You can put in an 850 bearing in that hole , to give it support .

As i have that in there now .

Re Re front box , with vintage out drive .

Bearing in box .

 5b445cfa739cd3f36908ca49b020954e_zpsigwy

Bearing on outer box ( But not as good on re re , as it is on vintage ) . + you don't have to add this of course . 

 

1acf5c187fc379def37f68b4d77129a8_zpsjry3

 

One vintage out drive .

bae883e148bb42bed564cf69775587b8_zpsh1mw

 

Out drive in Re re box with E Clip . 

47ce905e51877f2618c499b0c9aa66a9_zpstqwr

I can do the vintage box , with re re out drive if needed . 

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55 minutes ago, beefmuffin said:

Are you sure about that Mat (@matman)?  I used to think that too, but I changed my mind that the difference in thickness only relates to the placement and width of the groove in the outdrives so as to accommodate the C vs E clips.  I don't see any difference in thickness... although if you are sure I can figure out a way to compare measurements.

Look at the bearing depth of the gear box , that's where it is different .

Now as (@terragin) has said , i have one front Gearbox that LOOKS the same as re re , BUT the bearing depth is the same

as Vintage . Now is this the 1st gen of the re re boomerang & they corrected it ? I don't know . As the two look the same &

this is where some of the problem maybe .

1st pic . re re bearing is lower , i can put my finger nail on the inside of box & run it towards bearing & it drops in .

But on the Vintage it does not , nail will hit bearing & will stop me .

 33c077111a7e13f1c1f56167a228e228_zpslryi

Now the two re re's that look alike , But the only thing that is different , as bearing depth . Both have the N inside the box 

Vintage don't , Both has the filled in behind the hex , bumper stay & both have one hole filled in to the back .

0d5fd7ee4df90f91f2ccc70ee2a6c441_zpstl1i

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40 minutes ago, matman said:

Yep i'm sure , we have gone through this before . You can put in an 850 bearing in that hole , to give it support .

As i have that in there now .

Re Re front box , with vintage out drive .

Bearing in box .

 5b445cfa739cd3f36908ca49b020954e_zpsigwy

Bearing on outer box ( But not as good on re re , as it is on vintage ) . + you don't have to add this of course . 

 

1acf5c187fc379def37f68b4d77129a8_zpsjry3

 

One vintage out drive .

bae883e148bb42bed564cf69775587b8_zpsh1mw

 

Out drive in Re re box with E Clip . 

47ce905e51877f2618c499b0c9aa66a9_zpstqwr

I can do the vintage box , with re re out drive if needed . 

Are these differences only on the front box?  I didn't have the front to look at side by side today.

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24 minutes ago, beefmuffin said:

Are these differences only on the front box?  I didn't have the front to look at side by side today.

Rear is the same . Depth is it . 

Now i had got vintage gearboxs some time ago , but they looked like re re all the way . BUT !! 

I got them out & the bearing depth is the same as vintage , front & back . But bright plastic , look way to new for

it's age , compared to the vintage one's  i have & know are vintage . + look the same as re re in colour etc ( as i had pointed out in above post ) .

The sprue didn't match up with the box's , with the sprue marks .

What i'm thinking is these are the 1st Gen re re hotshot / boomerang gearbox's , with out the bearing relief ?.  

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7 minutes ago, matman said:

 

Hit Quote in stead of Edit :( 

 

 

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Rosey

Those gearbox parts are from a Boomerang kit

I have seen them in other NIB Boomerangs for sale, like this one taken off ebay (I think)

05e.jpg

As noted my matman above, the only difference between these later gearbox parts and the rere parts (off the sprue), is the depth of the bearing holder, 4mm on vintage and 4.5mm on the rere

Hibernaculum, I know you are interested in the Hotshot at this stage but I think we have to take this later vintage adaptation into account

terragni

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Ok , i have gone & got my NIB Boomerang & Super Sabre out .

The Boomerang G parts . 

39fe6db826062b6035638d2069cfadf0_zpsmr6a

 

The Super Sabre G parts . 

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Good call terragni :D .. 

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Wow, OK... so the G parts I have without the ribs, etc were set aside for a Bigwig build.  But does this mean that you actually need one with the ribs, etc to accurately parts-build a Boomerang or a Bigwig??  LOLOL...

iWKad22.jpg

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