beefmuffin

Is it vintage? collective tips to help make informed decisions.

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Hey Beef, I have a rare set of Bigwig G parts to trade for that chassis ;)

terragni

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11 hours ago, beefmuffin said:

Wow, OK... so the G parts I have without the ribs, etc were set aside for a Bigwig build.  But does this mean that you actually need one with the ribs, etc to accurately parts-build a Boomerang or a Bigwig??  LOLOL...

iWKad22.jpg

I'm not too sure Beef , as i do have Boomerangs that don't have the ribs & this is what screwed me up . 

It might be , In the middle / last batch of Boomerang runs may have got this ?.  

Almost wondering , if it was a redesign when they did the hotshot 1.1 , but didn't get to it in time

of run ? Will we ever Know , But at least we know Mr T knew there were weekness in the cars &

was working on fixing them , IT SEEM'S .  + the new cars that came from the hotshot , developed

the G parts & alike ??? . Would we ever know !!! .   

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On 6/25/2016 at 9:38 PM, terragni said:

Hibernaculum, I know you are interested in the Hotshot at this stage but I think we have to take this later vintage adaptation into account

Agreed. And noted. I will add mention/explanation that even though the ribs count as a difference between original Hotshot and reissue Hotshot, the difference itself first appeared in the vintage kits of other models. That said, the reissue G parts still appears to have other ways to specifically ID it - the bearing depth and the sprue (embossed writing/tab)?

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21 hours ago, beefmuffin said:

Wow, OK... so the G parts I have without the ribs, etc were set aside for a Bigwig build.  But does this mean that you actually need one with the ribs, etc to accurately parts-build a Boomerang or a Bigwig??

Correct. Checked a bunch of kits here, and every Bigwig, Boomerang and Hotshot II kit has the ribs. Every Hotshot and Supershot kit has the earlier, non-ribbed G parts.

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36 minutes ago, Hibernaculum said:

Correct. Checked a bunch of kits here, and every Bigwig, Boomerang and Hotshot II kit has the ribs. Every Hotshot and Supershot kit has the earlier, non-ribbed G parts.

Mike (@terragni) and I were further discussing in email and I think there may be certain parts - the 4wd G parts may be the apex of the phenomenon, but there are others - that were re-used across many models and underwent changes over that time where we should probably dedicate a whole page on the blog to just that part and its changes over time and across kits.  We could adopt a version numbering system 1.0.0 to 2.X.X+ where 1.0.0 is the very first Mk1 variant, 1.1.0 is the next, until 2.0.0 which would usually be the re-re version.. The third place would be to differentiate between sub-versions that have already been assigned major and minor versions.

Mike also compiled the below list of how the outdrives are seated differently across models (!).  I wonder how these compare with physical changes btw 1.X.X, 1.X.Y, 1.Y.X, etc.

Hotshot : bearing + c ring
Supershot : bearing + c ring
Boomerang : plastic bush + thrust washer + c ring
Bigwig : bearing + c ring + plastic bushes (A5)
Hotshot II : bearing + c ring with the spindle connecting out-drives
Super Sabre : plastic bush + thrust washer + c ring with the spindle connecting out-drives

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I think stadium thunder and pajero MTW is missing from the list?

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6 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

Thank you :) Fixed now.

Sorry, also the Dyna Storm

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11 hours ago, taffer said:

I think stadium thunder and pajero MTW is missing from the list?

I've added the Pajero (Tamiya model #132) to the to-do list (plus a bunch of others).
But I actually think the Stadium Thunder (#181) is pushing the boundaries of what I'd considered "vintage". But to avoid derailing this thread, I've started another thread to throw that topic open. ;)

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14 hours ago, beefmuffin said:

Mike (@terragni) and I were further discussing in email and I think there may be certain parts - the 4wd G parts may be the apex of the phenomenon, but there are others - that were re-used across many models and underwent changes over that time where we should probably dedicate a whole page on the blog to just that part and its changes over time and across kits.  We could adopt a version numbering system 1.0.0 to 2.X.X+ where 1.0.0 is the very first Mk1 variant, 1.1.0 is the next, until 2.0.0 which would usually be the re-re version.. The third place would be to differentiate between sub-versions that have already been assigned major and minor versions.

Mike also compiled the below list of how the outdrives are seated differently across models (!).  I wonder how these compare with physical changes btw 1.X.X, 1.X.Y, 1.Y.X, etc.

Hotshot : bearing + c ring
Supershot : bearing + c ring
Boomerang : plastic bush + thrust washer + c ring
Bigwig : bearing + c ring + plastic bushes (A5)
Hotshot II : bearing + c ring with the spindle connecting out-drives
Super Sabre : plastic bush + thrust washer + c ring with the spindle connecting out-drives

I agree with you guys - certain parts that have an undergone a high number of revisions may need their own page. However, based on the list above - how many of those six G Parts scenarios represent an actual change to the G parts mold itself

Correct me if I am wrong (maybe I missed something) but to sum up, this is what I am reading from you guys. There are 3 types in total:

  1. Hotshot/Supershot G Parts
  2. Boomerang/Bigwig/Hotshot II/Super Sabre G Parts (same as #1, except: extra internal and external ribbing, more shiny plastic)
  3. Reissue G Parts (same as #2, except: "N" printed inside, filled-in bumper stay area, altered bearing depth, and different sprue tab/writing)

But please correct me if I have this wrong :)

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bullhead and jeep wrangler must be on list (model no's under 150) but the ford f-150 is prob same as stadium thunder.......?

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Hey guys - sorry to be posting things in a pretty scattershot pattern... but that's just how I'm getting to them!

Today I received a vintage Lunchbox roller to restore as my new 100% original shelfer.  By far the hardest thing to find vintage for the Lunchbox has been the body.  In fact, outside of a whole NIB kit I was unable to find a NOS Lunchbox body by any means, anywhere.  There were quite a few listed as vintage that were obviously not.  A handful that might have been vintage but when checking with the seller they confirmed it was a re-release body.  In fact, it was surprising just how many established sellers didn't realize there was any difference between the two.

I have, in fact, never even been able to find pictures clearly showing the inner markings on a vintage Lunchbox body and certainly not a comparison between those and the ones on the re-re body.  But based on some forum posts I'd read, and pure inference, I was confident enough that I needed to locate a true original body to complete a correct vintage build/restoration.  I'm glad I did and now I can share the below pics to help others who may either have a NOS body they can sell and advertise as such or who are looking for one and will know exactly how to tell the difference.

I also had NIP sets of both vintage and re-release Lunchbox wheels and checked for differences.  As luck would have it, if you have a Lunchbox wheel you can always determine if it's vintage just by looking at those markings.  The bottom set of pics shows how.

1) Re-release body (underside of roof, toward the rear)

27958513726_a0c7bdfed3_k.jpg

27958267106_9955fe2365_b.jpg27379578654_9922e6b507_b.jpg

 

2) Vintage original body (underside of roof, toward the rear)

27712916990_55ec2f8bd2_o.jpg

27958348896_4e07c768c1_b.jpg27712946350_481578c119_b.jpg

 

3) Every wheel has one side with a version of the below markings.  The TOP version is the re-release, the BOTTOM version is the original.

27958528896_bcedb096c0_o.jpg

27379860944_abe04de0ff_o.jpg

 

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LOL - @Rosey just wrote to inquire if he could pick up those rib-less G parts and I was down to sell them since now I can't use them (!) for my Bigwig or HS2 projects :lol: but I has a double-check of my Hotshot and Supershot to ensure they were both rib-free before parting with these.

Hotshot, check!  Supershot - OH NO!  RIIIIIBBBSSSS!  So I have to swap out the G parts from that and can use them for the Bigwig.

See!  This thread is already starting to pay dividends.  Let's keep chugging along comrades.

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5 hours ago, beefmuffin said:

OH NO!  RIIIIIBBBSSSS!

ribs_p1020148.jpg

 

Ribs....  mmmm...

Terry

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6 hours ago, Rosey said:

Matman, just flip those gear boxes over would you and make sure the ribs are present :) 

As I touched on in my previous post, with regard to the Hotshot and Supershot suspension arms, I managed to get in contact with Tamiya sometime ago with a whole host of questions on the Hotshot. My predominant interest is on the Hotshot and the Mk.1 version of it which in fairness is where I wanted the direction to go but alas, Tamiya were less forthcoming in answering certain questions but still, I got some good info. Anyway, they told me that later Hotshot kits did in fact come with the altered suspension arms (F and R that were slightly modified to sit the Supershot CVAs). The screw hole in the lower F arm and the small protrusion on the lower rear arm, to align the bracket for the rear CVA.  

Safe to assume then that there were quite a few transitional alterations to some parts throughout their respective production runs. Up to us now to discover and catalogue what these were :) 

Hibernaculum. I can help you with anything Hotshot related, if you need some info. I of course am still discovering stuff but I wrote a compendium some time ago on the differences between the Hotshot, Supershot and Hotshot II. *missed those rear gear box ribs lol I since took it off here but I know lars (I think that is his name), with my permission put it onto his website. I am going to write a new one at some point, get my nib Mk1 Hotshot kit out and take some proper pictures of all the bits and pieces. Same with my nib Supershot and Hotshot II. Do it properly!!!

 

Yes they have the ribs ( NOT the Frog Jumper ribs ) :lol:  . 

Boomerang G parts . 

af409936c131feb4795c9acee64362f2_zps4g28

Now the inside shot , you can see that it's NOT filled in behind the Hex ( bumper stay ) & there are still the square holes

at the rear of the front . 

cadaafaec4561b927a3387a9863bbc9a_zpsspii

Super Sabre G parts ,

f6811ebcd858c41c188a37491387b8ab_zpsab7p

Now the inside , you can see that it's NOT filled in , Behind the Hex ( bumper stay ) & the square hole's , ONE was filled in .

Right hand side ! , Not too sure why one out of the two Square holes was ?.  ( NOT IN THESE PICS , BUT IN NEXT PIC ) 

ab5ef778c77ed530439dc1ba144fcabc_zpsocjs

Why one square hole is filled ?. I have tryed to see if i can get it out , as it look's like something is stuck in there .

Could not get it out , didn't try too hard , as i don't want to damage it . 

 5f2ce7d46dd435c9615bfa81858bc0ae_zpsxfro

 

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Well done guys, with the photos and research lately. Excellent stuff. It's a great team effort here ^_^

My weekend was busy, but I made a tiny start to the Hotshot page last night. So all Hotshot vintage vs reissue information will be collated here: https://rctoymemories.com/tamiya-hotshot-vintage-vs-reissue/  using the same format as the Frog article (which I still also have a couple of things to add to, but it is probably 95% complete). I will be getting to the Hotshot parts trees soon. 

BECVw2r.jpg

etc... I still have 90% of the info to add :lol:

On 7/1/2016 at 4:47 PM, Rosey said:

As I touched on in my previous post, with regard to the Hotshot and Supershot suspension arms, I managed to get in contact with Tamiya sometime ago with a whole host of questions on the Hotshot. My predominant interest is on the Hotshot and the Mk.1 version of it which in fairness is where I wanted the direction to go but alas, Tamiya were less forthcoming in answering certain questions but still, I got some good info. Anyway, they told me that later Hotshot kits did in fact come with the altered suspension arms (F and R that were slightly modified to sit the Supershot CVAs). The screw hole in the lower F arm and the small protrusion on the lower rear arm, to align the bracket for the rear CVA.  

Safe to assume then that there were quite a few transitional alterations to some parts throughout their respective production runs. Up to us now to discover and catalogue what these were :) 

Hibernaculum. I can help you with anything Hotshot related, if you need some info. I of course am still discovering stuff but I wrote a compendium some time ago on the differences between the Hotshot, Supershot and Hotshot II. *missed those rear gear box ribs lol I since took it off here but I know lars (I think that is his name), with my permission put it onto his website. I am going to write a new one at some point, get my nib Mk1 Hotshot kit out and take some proper pictures of all the bits and pieces. Same with my nib Supershot and Hotshot II. Do it properly!!!

Invaluable stuff Rosey, thanks for this. While the main focus of this project (for now) is not so much to focus on the differences between mk1 and mk2 vintage kits, but rather to just help ID anything vintage over anything reissue/rerelease, we are still going to need to highlight "all the varieties of vintage" and to be able to say "If part X looks like any of these, then it is vintage.". 

Since you are almost the only person with a NIB Hotshot Mk1, some photos of your Mk1-specific parts trees would be awesome, when you have time. The left column on my page will then perhaps carry 2 photos (one labeled Mk1, one labeled Mk2) for the parts that differed between Mk1 and Mk2, as a way of saying "these were both vintage".

Regarding the Hotshot G parts. Are we all in agreement that as far as the original Hotshot kit was concerned there was only ever one type of G parts tree included in the kit? The later "Ribbed G parts" sounds like it only came in the Hotshot II, Super Sabre, Boomerang, Bigwig kits etc. Having said that, I may still need to add a pic/note about it, as even though it may never have come packed in the Hotshot kit, to a person searching eBay for Hotshot G parts they are gonna need to know about the ribbed version. It is still embossed RCC Hotshot and is still vintage. So most sellers who are selling one will naturally assume it was a Hotshot kit part. When in fact it was really a Hotshot II, Super Sabre, Boomerang, Bigwig kit part.

Phew! I think if we can solve the Hotshot breakdown and get that page in the bag, many other models will be a snap ;)

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The 1st MK 1 hot shot , had different front gear box . The brass bumper holder was way different to the MK1.1 hotshot

vintage we all know . Rosey knows more about this & hope he can upload the pic's .  I'm sure we have gone over this before

with Rosey & crashcramer at some point , with the arms , gearbox's , bumpers etc of the mk1 / mk1.1 . 

Just remember there is a MK 2 hotshot as hotshot two  . 

Good stuff so far H ..   

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@Hibernaculum I'm sure @Frog Jumper or someone will have the answer on the Frog Z parts and if not I'll sort that ASAP.

In other new, as another non-sequential piece of the puzzle I was lucky enough this week to score a complete NIP set of vintage Avante wheels.  I also had a NIP set of Avante 2011 ones.  They're quite similar in color and form of the wheels themselves, although the shade of yellow/orange is slightly darker / less bright in the originals... in a way similar to the close to perfect form of the various white re-re 3-piece buggy wheels... the vintage are a slightly darker / less bright hue.  It may not be that visible in these photos, and unless you have them side by side it would be hard to know one from the other.

Luckily there are many ways to know the difference: packaging, sprue-design and writing, writing on the wheels themselves (does not seem to apply to the locking hub covers, which seem to be completely indistinguishable once off-sprue).

I don't have time at the moment to graphically highlight the differences or even describe them in detail here... already spent the time I had getting the pics.  Partway thu the battery in my Nikon died and I had to switch to a little ultra-compact Canon, which can be seen in the pics but doesn't detract from illustrating the side-by-side details of the differences btw vintage and re-re.  In the below pics I'll order the pics so that for each feature the first set of pics is for the vintage followed by the re-re.

28302107275_d1b1dd66ff_o.jpg

27685851324_f74eebfe2d_o.jpg

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28198062122_0792f9bfc3_o.jpg

28198061212_01fed7ae5f_o.jpg

28198060002_cd1271ef4c_o.jpg

 

28198058782_cd9fbfc256_o.jpg

28198055442_3b228f969e_o.jpg

28198056862_b4a3613f63_o.jpg

28198056112_ee5e450e46_b.jpg

28198057932_7f0c43c3c2_o.jpg

28198057532_669bd21f30_o.jpg

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33 minutes ago, Hibernaculum said:

Can anyone confirm what writing is embossed on the sprue of the reissue Frog Z Parts?

Yes. Although it's really,really small. This is the best my camera can do. Hope it's good enough.

P1000865_zpsh6nwbeay.jpg

 

P1000866_zpsjm0fm6gp.jpg

 

P1000867_zpspsyygaqn.jpg

 

From left to right - C1983 TAMIYA, 58041/0983093, C1986/TAMIYA, 58055/0983093-50, >PS<

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14 minutes ago, GregM said:

Since Tamiyabase had a "changes" tab on their reissue section for years, I wonder why few people bothered adding more info into that existing website?

Please see http://tamiyabase.com/index.php?option=com_joodb&view=article&joobase=26&id=354&Itemid=1348#changes

Hmm I'm guessing that it was primarily @larbut himself filling in most of this info.  I think the difference is that submitting it that way depends more on each individual doing the submitting, where here we're doing it much more collaboratively.  Then @Hibernaculum organizing everything is great.  I also don't see why we wouldn't be fine with the same info making its way onto Tamiyabase.com... unless anyone else here has any objections, I wouldn't.  The better to share the information as widely as possible.

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