Cheap labor

[Saito2 6686]

I know this is a fact of the world we live in, but how do you all feel about cheap manufacturing from China, Taiwan, etc? I do realize there comes a time when some things have to be outsourced in order to stay competitive, but I still don't like it. When other companies got on the re-release wagon, I began to wonder where they were making their kits. Associated Electrics re-re of the RC10 really irked me. The was a car originally designed and born in the US. The old two page ad even had the heading "Import Fighter" across the top. Something's just not right about it being remade in China. I can't fully place the blame on China despite questionable working conditions (at best) as greed is what drove companies to seek cheap labor to begin with (forcing other companies down that road just to keep up). I couldn't bring myself to buy a Traxxas vehicle for this reason, although buying a used example nullifies some of the guilt. Tamiya being Japanese doesn't bother me because that's what they are, a Japanese company. I'm not putting anyone down for buying outsourced products made with cheap labor. It's a personal choice for all of us. I'm just tired of seeing "made in China" on everything I pick up. 

[gt6++ 29]

I understand where you are coming from.  It is very difficult in this day and age to not have something that was "made in china".  There are some products that seem like they are only made in china now, making it hard to support local production.  I must admit that japan seems to stand out of the norm and continues to make stuff locally. 

Don't forget though, Tamiya does have a production site in the Philippines, where I think most of our kits come from from nowadays.....who knows, some of their raw materials or parts may be coming from china and "assembled in the Philippines".

It is just a fact of life that cannot be escaped as long as mankind chases after the bottom line.

[GooneyBird 938]

TRF is still a fully Japanese product, but the lower-end kits are made in the Philippines I'm afraid. Funny enough most Japanese products aren't made in China due to the tense relationship between both countries. Plus, Japanese companies pride themselves on a very strict QC policy, something most Chinese manufacturers cannot touch. 

[lin6499 237]

deleted.

 

[moffman 5752]

I'm speaking from a UK point of view and I couldn't agree with you more businesses in the UK tend to go towards thinking that the bottom line is God we have a thing over hear called  "ripoff Britain" and a lot of companies sign up to that philosophy! not all, their is a good percentage of decent companies hear aswell, in the UK we have been outsourcing our services for year (decades in fact) so it kind of a way of life that companies go abroad for cheap labour then try to convince the public that it is a much better service knowing fine well it isn't and it's all about saving as much as they can at the expense of quality but they have spent years & years cutting and the public/customer knows fine well it isn't better And I suppose our rc's we buy tends to be going that way aswell and I have to agree when I look at my re-re's they are brilliant and very nostalgic but there is just something about them that I can't really put my finger on why it just looks a little more toy'ish than the original maybe it's the quality of the plastics etc I don't really know but again they are coming in cheaper! Mind you I would be willing to pay more not to have that little niggle in the back of my mind. Like you with the rc10 we have our UK based rc company over hear Schumacher racing which I'm happy to say is still turning out top quality race winning buggies and I can vouch for them they are fantastic racing machine's. Mind you we are out the EU now so I don't know what that's going to bring when it comes to cheap far Eastern products (rc cars!) And the rest of the EU isn't going to make it easy for us after we have just give them a punch in the face so to speak, I just hope the powers that be who got us into this know what they are doing because they have split a nation and its no laughing matter  (IMO)!

[LongRat 616]

No company can be blamed for trying to reduce operating costs.  It's hard enough to make money producing RC cars anywhere, let alone in high wage economies like the UK and US.  By the way, most of Schumacher's parts including the CNC machined stuff is done in the far east, Robin Schumacher told me himself.  The kits are made up in the UK though.  This, and importing other manufacturers' lines of RC products is probably the only reason they are still in business.

What we need to do is make manufacturing more efficient, and improve the quality of manufacturing here, which will lead to reduced labour input and ultimately drive costs down.  You have to do it better, or cheaper, or preferably both.  This is the ethos that brought Japan to the forefront of industrial manufacturing back in the 1970s.  Not long before that, anything that said 'Made in Japan' on the box was immediately signed of as junk (and often was).  Much like China today.

[moffman 5752]

3 hours ago, LongRat said:

No company can be blamed for trying to reduce operating costs.  It's hard enough to make money producing RC cars anywhere, let alone in high wage economies like the UK and US.  By the way, most of Schumacher's parts including the CNC machined stuff is done in the far east, Robin Schumacher told me himself.  The kits are made up in the UK though.  This, and importing other manufacturers' lines of RC products is probably the only reason they are still in business.

What we need to do is make manufacturing more efficient, and improve the quality of manufacturing here, which will lead to reduced labour input and ultimately drive costs down.  You have to do it better, or cheaper, or preferably both.  This is the ethos that brought Japan to the forefront of industrial manufacturing back in the 1970s.  Not long before that, anything that said 'Made in Japan' on the box was immediately signed of as junk (and often was).  Much like China today.

Don't matter where the parts are made Schumacher rc buggies are brilliant quality which proves the point you can still have good quality products at a very competitive price!

[LongRat 616]

Absolutely - that is basically my point.  It is hard to compete with those companies who offer cheap AND high quality manufacturing from China.  Because while some are poor quality, many are certainly not.

[FWLBP 53]

This is a topic that hits home for me. I'm an engineer for a large conglomerate here in the U.S. I work on introducing new products to the manufacturing environment (product management). My factory and its sister factory nearby were announced earlier this year that they will be shutting down and moving to Mexico next year. It was fairly high profile, presidential candidates discussed it several times. In all, 2100 jobs are being exported. Now, the official "justification" from the company is that this is to be more competitive and cut costs. But in light of other facts, it paints a different picture. 

Firstly, this conglomerate has many divisions and makes jet engines, helicopters, elevators, hvac equipment, etc. Massive company. All divisions of the company LOST money in 2015, EXCEPT my division. So the most competitive and profitable division in the company is the one that needs to be restructured to be competitive?? Very strange. Later on, the company stated by making this move, they will get $65 million in cut costs. Interestingly, 2 years ago (about the time planning for the shut down began) the company restructured its elevator division and it was poorly managed. Coincidentally, due to delays and costs run ups, the company lost $60 million. Very strange these two dollar amounts are so similar. So from my experience, outsourcing might not be for increasing competitiveness in the market. It might be for the CEO and management to cover their @ss from a collossal mess up, and the peons pay...

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

I'm completely against outsourcing and offshoring for a few reasons:

- The trade deficit continues to widen because of it

- A weakened manufacturing base is a national security issue

- Environmental issues are swept under the rug by moving manufacturing to a more lenient country instead of fixing the root issues

- The multinationals find ways to dodge taxes by refusing to repatriate earnings even though the headquarters is in my country

- Manufacturing is just the beginning; engineering (my profession) is affected as well depending on the level of engineering

That said, I'm not in a position to directly change or even really influence what my country does.  All I can do is vote for the politician most closely aligned with my beliefs, and then hope he didn't lie during his campaign.

[Hibernaculum 933]

Excellent topic. In fact, I nearly wrote about this recently myself. So I'll share my thoughts here, for what they are worth.

Firstly. For anyone who feels that offshore toy manufacturing in China is basically "part of life" or "just the same" as when a company manufactures in it's own country of origin, try watching this 30 minute European documentary: "Santa's Workshop - Inside China's Slave Labour Toy Factories", and see what you think of it.

It shows Chinese peasant workers making toys. Doing 14 hour shifts, 7 days per week. Sometimes performing over 100 hours of overtime per month. Living in dormitories literally attached to the toy factories, where up to 15 people share a room. And they are manufacturing items for some famous "quality" European toy brands. You can even see some of them molding toy cars.

In the early days of the R/C hobby, pretty much 100% of R/C companies were based near where their products were actually manufactured. Manufacturing products close to your headquarters had obvious benefits - the main one being a clear oversight of the entire production process from raw materials to packaging, to quality control, to the physical well-being of your staff. All Japanese brands were made in Japan. All German brands were made in Germany. All US brands were made in the USA - as the sticker on the RC10 box proudly stated.

Today, almost zero major R/C companies manufacture in their country of origin anymore. Tamiya and Yokomo may be the only hold-outs left. Tamiya is only half-Japanese at best in terms of it's output, with much production now in the Philippines. 

In terms of whole vehicles, please correct me if I am wrong, but everything else is made in China or Taiwan - including all those Kyosho and Associated rereleases. And I believe it would be naive and optimistic to assume that the R/C industry is entirely safe and exempt from the problems witnessed in relation to the general toy industry.

This is because no oversight exists in China. Western company executives are often fooled into believing their standards for quality and workplace ethics are being upheld by local Chinese manufacturers, when in fact, they have no clue what is really going on. The confused and ignorant (and sometimes deluded) faces of the Scandinavian brand managers shown in the above documentary really do tell the story.

Perhaps Apple have the resources to have their people standing in the factories all the time ensuring that things are being done to an acceptable standard. But most companies simply hire out Chinese factories, visit now and then, and otherwise place their stock orders.

And if workplace standards are often falling by the wayside, you've also got to wonder if those exploited workers are really going to care all that much about the quality of their output. I do not blame the Chinese workers themselves for what is happening - they are poor people just trying to survive. But if I was one of them, I certainly would not have much "pride" in relation to the brands I was working for. And that's the complete opposite of the "pride of workmanship" that made us fans of many famous, quality brands in the first place.

[Darat76 265]

12 hours ago, speedy_w_beans said:

All I can do is vote for the politician most closely aligned with my beliefs, and then hope he didn't lie during his campaign.

Every politician tells the truth, just like pigs can fly, and those flying pink elephants....

[MadInventor 3884]

Re the original question, I guess it depends on how you'd feel about paying 'Made In Japan' prices versus 'Made in the cheapest place possible'

In 1986, I bought a Hotshot kit for £108. Using an inflation calculator off the internet the equivalent cost now would be £295. And the equivalent cost of a 1988 Avante would now be £762. Sure, some of the cost reduction in the case of the hotshot can be put down to kit packaging and changes to the design (Probably cheaper in this day and age to make an ESC instead of a MSC), but that's still quite a difference especially if you multiply it up against how many kits a year and spares a lot of people buy.

I don't think it should burn the conscience any more than when you buy a flat panel TV or a smartphone or any other piece of modern tech. Sure the environmental impact is a concern, and the working conditions in the factories seem bad and it looks like workers are being exploited, but no-one is holding a gun to anyone's head to work there. If they weren't working in the factory where would they be working? Out in the fields in all weathers doing back breaking work for even less money.

By comparison of working standards, don't forget it wasn't so long ago in history that Britain used to send children down coal mines to work..........

[Hibernaculum 933]

 

12 hours ago, MadInventor said:

no-one is holding a gun to anyone's head to work there. If they weren't working in the factory where would they be working? Out in the fields in all weathers doing back breaking work for even less money.

It may not be a gun to the head. But I guess if the only choices are back-breaking work in the fields for even less money, vs  7 day weeks + 100 hours of overtime per month in a factory, that is a miserable choice for anyone to have to make. 

Personally (and I'm not opposing your points MadInventor, just speaking personally) I find it all a bit... embarrassing. And I'm not an activist. But when I think of people living lives of near-slavery, purely to enable western companies to have wider profit margins than if they manufactured at home, I feel ashamed. 

And for what it's worth, money where mouth is: I admit it is near impossible in some product categories to not buy made in China (e.g. technology items). But most major purchases I make are of items made in Europe (kitchenware, white-goods), the USA (outdoor tools, machinery), Australia (indoor furniture, food), Japan (real cars and parts), NZ (food, items made out of possums*), and so on. Even my wife favours buying clothing made elsewhere. And since everything I have R/C-wise is either Tamiya brand or 25+ years old, almost 100% of my R/C stuff is non-China.

Incidentally, a Chinese friend of mine (who only left China a few years ago) recently remarked to me about how bad life had been there, and stated that he hates products that are made in China because of the emphasis on quantity-over-quality. And that where possible he always buys things that are "Made in Japan".

H.

* everything in NZ is made out of possums.

[MadInventor 3884]

10 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

 

It may not be a gun to the head. But I guess if the only choices are back-breaking work in the fields for even less money, vs  7 day weeks + 100 hours of overtime per month in a factory, that is a miserable choice for anyone to have to make. 

Personally (and I'm not opposing your points MadInventor, just speaking personally) I find it all a bit... embarrassing. And I'm not an activist. But when I think of people living lives of near-slavery, purely to enable western companies to have wider profit margins than if they manufactured at home, I feel ashamed. 

And for what it's worth, money where mouth is: I admit it is near impossible in some product categories to not buy made in China (e.g. technology items). But most major purchases I make are of items made in Europe (kitchenware, white-goods), the USA (outdoor tools, machinery), Australia (indoor furniture, food), Japan (real cars and parts), NZ (food, items made out of possums*), and so on. Even my wife favours buying clothing made elsewhere. And since everything I have R/C-wise is either Tamiya brand or 25+ years old, almost 100% of my R/C stuff is non-China.

Incidentally, a Chinese friend of mine (who only left China a few years ago) recently remarked to me about how bad life had been there, and stated that he hates products that are made in China because of the emphasis on quantity-over-quality. And that where possible he always buys things that are "Made in Japan".

H.

* everything in NZ is made out of possums.

I quite agree with what you are saying, I just wanted to show there's 2 sides to every argument. It might be a miserable choice but at least it is a choice. People sometimes have no choice (For example those conscripted into the armed forces during wartime). It is however pretty bad that people are living those kinds of lifestyles to provide cheap toys for the western world.  

As you say, it's very difficult to be a consumer with a conscience. Especially when you look at how things are made. How much of the goods manufactured outside of China use either tooling or raw materials sourced from China ? Is for example, the Japanese made car using Chinese steel, or Chinese made CNC machines in the factories. Do the American made power tools have Chinese electric motors inside them ?

I know from my own experience of trying to sell stuff I've machined myself that people are very reluctant to pay anything above Chinese rates for manufactured goods. For example a TXT-1 aluminium gearbox I made paid back an hourly rate of around £4/hr, less if I'd charged for the materials I'd used.