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madmickmalone

FROG vintage NIB ??

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Woah, so the body was original, after the earlier photo made us think it wasn't.

Photos, eh. Those rascals! :blink: LOL. 

I still suspect the "F" and "R" parts are reissue though. The sprues look different to the Frog kits I've seen/owned (curved corners, not square). What does the embossed text on them say? (I do not have enough detail about this right now on my page, due to not owning a reissue  F and R parts).

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hibernaculum,

 

here is 2 pictures f and r parts,

1st one is re-re (1979 tamiya ,58016/0984069,>ABS<)

2nd one is from vintage kit (1/10 rc vw buggy ,made in japan)

thoughts

 

 

 

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

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9 hours ago, madmickmalone said:

hibernaculum,

here is 2 pictures f and r parts,

1st one is re-re (1979 tamiya ,58016/0984069,>ABS<)

2nd one is from vintage kit (1/10 rc vw buggy ,made in japan)

thoughts

It appears that your second photo shows F and R parts where the sprue has rounded corners, yet the embossing still suggests it is vintage.

I had thought the vintage F and R parts all had old "square" sprues, like this (below). I could be totally wrong, and maybe the curved sprues can be vintage too. I haven't had the time to go through all my kits to check yet, so... what are other's thoughts? Happy if my assumption was wrong, it's all about working these little details out ^_^

tamiya-frog-f-r-parts-vintage.jpg?w=700

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On 7/7/2016 at 6:59 PM, Backlash said:

IIRC, my original Frog had a narrow front bumper, and a Black (Bakerlite) resistor plate..

Interesting. Given that the original catalogue photos of both Frog and Grasshopper show them both with the narrow bumper (while the Hornet has the wider bumper), it may be that some ended up in the Frog kit, if not the Grasshopper (I've never seen an actual case of either, but after looking around there are definitely a few anecdotes about the Frog).

1 hour ago, Rosey said:

This sprue is from a nib Frog kit, silly question perhaps? Need to check kits prior to and after the Frog then with these same wheels and see what other kits had square and rounded edges. Another interesting find!

Yep, that sprue I posted came from a Frog kit. And I just checked a bunch of kits and here's what I found....I found one Hornet kit which has the F and R parts with the curved sprue (same as madmickmalone's). Looking at the embossing, it's definitely still an original/vintage F and R parts. All other kits (I checked 10) had the square shaped sprue. So, both curved and square are vintage. The embossed writing is therefore the better way to detect reissue version of F and R. That, and the fact that I always feel like the reissue white plastic is this "bright white" colour, as opposed to being slightly off-white like all the vintage white plastic was.

Everything about the reissue kits is bright white, shiny, glossy, polished metal etc, and not off-white, matte, brushed aluminium etc etc like the original kits. This tendency certainly gives the original kits a nice old-school feel to them, right down to the materials and finish, as you can imagine it pertaining to the older methods of manufacture.

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On 8/7/2016 at 6:32 AM, Hibernaculum said:

Everything about the reissue kits is bright white, shiny, glossy, polished metal etc, and not off-white, matte, brushed aluminium etc etc like the original kits. This tendency certainly gives the original kits a nice old-school feel to them, right down to the materials and finish, as you can imagine it pertaining to the older methods of manufacture.

 

At last someone pointing that out. I know I'm a fool for white wheels, and the new "bright white" wheels they are selling is a turn off for me. And you're spot on the shiny, glossy stuff. Now I can see what's behind my feeling towards the new stuff Tamiya is producing. Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT against anybody enjoying the re-released stuff, they're actually made to run and have fun, it's only my own feeling about the Tamiya products, that is all.

 

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Just wondering what people's thoughts are on shrink wrapped NIB vintage kits?

Is it a huge risk in purchasing these kits without seeing the inside contents,it's not hard to shrink wrap a kit.

 

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2 minutes ago, madmickmalone said:

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on shrink wrapped NIB vintage kits?

Is it a huge risk in purchasing these kits without seeing the inside contents,it's not hard to shrink wrap a kit.

For me, that's all I collect now vintage kit wise.  This thread and others are exactly why!  Some people think it's a risk.  I feel a lot more confident that the kit inside is complete and proper.

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4 minutes ago, beefmuffin said:

For me, that's all I collect now vintage kit wise.  This thread and others are exactly why!  Some people think it's a risk.  I feel a lot more confident that the kit inside is complete and proper.

Fair point,I understand completely un-opened kits can also be tampered with.

However we put a huge amount of faith in the seller,do you have any not so obvious tips when purchasing a shrink wrapped car?

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Well - here in the US the Tamiya distributor for most of the vintage period was MRC.  They used to do the shrinkwrapping, after putting their own part number stickers and other promotional stickers on the box, then shrinkwrap over it.  It's pretty easy to identify their shrinkwrap... it's much less elastic than newly applied wrapping would tend to be.  It feels closer to cellophane and tears easily.

Have a look at this entry from my TC showroom to see some examples: http://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?cid=122582&id=39840

 

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There was someone on here (loaded perhaps?) who used to send them through an airport x-ray machine to verify the contents of shrink wrap kits.

I only have a few shrink wrap kits - and just like beefy above, they're generally obviously old (the wrapping is brittle and aged, they've got a period and appropriately weathered borgfelt toys importer sticker on them for Canada). I did gamble on a shrink wrapped mint Fox that looks like fell off the Tamiya assembly line into a time machine - perhaps one day I'll open that one up and see.

Not sure if others have heard any horror stories, but I actually can't recall hearing too many stories of people opening shrink wrap kits to find bogus contents. 

In general, I'd probably go for boxes I can look into, for a few reasons:

  1. you can see the condition of the contents: have the tires perished, has the plastic yellowed, have the blisters come off. I recently opened a kit that's been sitting calmly in the original shipping box since it was bought ... and just the weight of the tires had ripped the cardboard dividers up)
  2. not all vintage kits are created equal - v1 vs v2 production runs for models like hotshot, sand scorcher, or even the red vs white bodies in monster beetles

As long as you know what to look for (and ask for some specific pictures), not only can you pick out a re-release, but you can get the version you want.

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4 hours ago, gordb said:

There was someone on here (loaded perhaps?) who used to send them through an airport x-ray machine to verify the contents of shrink wrap kits.

I'm pretty sure that is/was @Crash Cramer

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1 hour ago, beefmuffin said:

I'm pretty sure that is/was @Crash Cramer

Hi there Ben! I think our good friend Chris only mentioned that doing that was possible a while ago. I can be wrong but I think it was loaded the one doing the X-ray thing. By the way, I'm going to send you a PM later on. Cheers :)

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Tend to agree with @gordb. I always enjoy seeing and admire sealed kits. I still even have some. But I've opened far more. Because it's a kind of cost/benefit situation...

When choosing sealed over unsealed, you are effectively prioritizing these 2 things:

  • Condition of outer box (usually nice and white)
  • Knowing the parts inside are all vintage.

...over knowing about these 6 things:

  • Variant type. Mk1, Mk2 etc.
  • Parts breakage (requiring outright replacement). I once bought a NIB vintage Monster Beetle which arrived with broken window glass. I recently bought a NIB Wild One which had a metal bevel gear sealed inside a perfect blister, yet the bevel gear was cracked in half!
  • Parts wear (possibly affecting value). Clear bodies often get scuffed by chassis parts. Decals get creased by boxes sliding around.
  • Internal packaging issues. Dividers are often very ripped, blisters coming apart, etc
  • Leakage of oil/grease. Fairly common.
  • Decomposition. Particularly rubber bands, balloons, etc.

Ultimately it comes down to price.

I have no issue taking a gamble on a sealed kit if it's not too much dearer than an unsealed kit would be. But when the price is way higher (as they often are), I think sellers are assuming that the sealed value of other collectibles automatically applies to vintage R/C, when it kinda doesn't. 

Compare Vintage R/C kits to vintage LEGO sets for instance... 

A sealed vintage LEGO set is a sure bet of being ok on the inside - it's all pretty much 1 material (super tough plastic) and the sets probably never had variants either. For this reason, sealed vintage LEGO sets are worth a lot more than opened ones.

Vintage R/C kits on the other hand, are packed full of beautifully complex parts, but with heavy metal objects mixed with fine plastic objects, liquids and even paper. After 30+ years of being shuffled around people's attics and shipped around the world, there are a fair few things that can go wrong inside the kit.

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Thread revival :P

This brilliant thread contains lots of useful Frog info, that I have used and added to where I can. 

One person said earlier that their original Frog kit contained the narrow/earlier front bumper (as used by Audi Quattro), and a black resistor plate. Can anyone confirm whether they have seen other early vintage Frogs that contained the narrow bumper? 

The Frog had the narrow bumper in its catalogue photos. I would just like to settle once and for all whether the Frog officially came with the narrow bumper, early in its production run.

I think it did. 

I have recently acquired a vintage NIB Frog kit with the earlier bumper. But I want to hear from others before I start claiming outright on my website that early Frogs really did come with those rarer, narrow bumpers. What do you guys think? @Frog Jumper @beefmuffin @mongoose1983  @gordb Or anyone else have thoughts on this?

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I just want to add that I think this is a definite, given all copies of the original Frog manual show the earlier, narrow bumper. It would have been pretty weird for Tamiya to use that narrow bumper right through the original catalogue pics and manual, without ever including it in the kit from Day 1.

Most likely...

1983 Frogs (before the release of the Grasshopper) had the narrower bumper and black resistor plate. I am also seeing black ball connectors - is that something others are aware of?

1984 and onwards (after release of the Grasshopper), Frogs got the wider bumper, white resistor plate, off-white ball connectors.

I have never seen a Grasshopper kit come with the narrow bumper. The Grasshopper was pictured with it in catalogue photo. But the Grasshopper manual always showed the wider bumper. 

Any objections to what I have written?

(The pattern here is very similar to the early vintage Hotshot (with different bumper), versus mid or late vintage Hotshot.)

The wider bumper had a further change also - later vintage versions of it have a wider central support.

This later version became the basis for the remake kits also - the Remake era Frog also has the wider bumper with wider central support - but with a further change whereby the embossed writing on the remake era bumper is also different to all vintage versions. 

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I can add nothing to the conversation about the front bumper...

Terry

 

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I do remember seeing a just built Frog with the narrow bumper. I think they first released it with that smaller bumper. I'd like to hear about this, too.

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2 hours ago, mongoose1983 said:

I do remember seeing a just built Frog with the narrow bumper. I think they first released it with that smaller bumper. I'd like to hear about this, too.

I was a sponsored racer at the time the Frog was released, so three other team members and myself got our first Frogs with the first shipment and they came with the narrow bumper without the reinforcement ribs of the later wider bumper. Mine snapped around the center hole pretty soon, something I believe I have never seen on the wider bumper. Resistor plate was of course black as were the ball connectors.

 

Furthermore, prototype photos showed the Frog with side mounted resistor, bumper mount without body post mount, no skidplate, no holes for the skidplate in the frame. In other words, like the Brat and 047. It also had a different servo saver (possibly mock-up) and somewhat different stickers. Possibly also no sunburst washers in the front suspension, analogue to the early Brat and 037, but it’s difficult to judge.

 

 

 

I bought a new built initial production Brat a couple of years ago, and wrote and illustrated a comparison between the initial/early and late(r) Brat, and discovered more differences than I was aware of in advance, including different gearbox housing plastic part.

 

Initial/early vs. late(r) Brat comparison

 

As for narrow bumper on the Grasshopper, I may remember it incorrectly, but I’m pretty sure the first ones came with the narrow bumper. Anyway, I clearly remember the use of the 850 plastic bearing (no 850 bronze bearing included), which caused the bearing to seize even if it was properly greased. Also, no hole for front body post, black ball connectors, no cage for the resistor and gearbox housing with shallower reinforcement ribs, making snapped axle housings pretty common.

 

 

49896217_1869194203207507_3796939522764177408_n.jpg

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Re: Grasshopper

22 minutes ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

As for narrow bumper on the Grasshopper, I may remember it incorrectly, but I’m pretty sure the first ones came with the narrow bumper. Anyway, I clearly remember the use of the 850 plastic bearing (no 850 bronze bearing included), which caused the bearing to seize even if it was properly greased. Also, no hole for front body post, black ball connectors, no cage for the resistor and gearbox housing with shallower reinforcement ribs, making snapped axle housings pretty common.

At this point in time, I am still unconvinced of narrow bumper being included in early Grasshopper kit. But... everything else you said about Grasshopper, is true based on kits I have seen.

Re: Frog. Yes, it seems we can agree/confirm once and for all I think, that the early vintage Frog did have the narrow bumper. My NIB kit here (narrow bumper, black resistor plate, black ball connectors) is the first time I have found a kit that truly backs up the theory.

I guess the Frog in the picture is another case of "Prototype" variant... which (like so many others early photographs of prototypes) was not actually obtained by the public. Same goes for Kyosho Scorpion box photo car, Tamiya Super Champ early catalogue photo, and others...

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I’ll have to dig out my Frog kit and look for the differences.

It was purchased NIB from a Japanese collector, and it’s been a very long time since I’ve had a peek inside.

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