Hilux monster racer or nissan king cab re-re. Anytime soon?

[Terz1]

That would be a good idea nito! Dt03's are so cheap too. I don't know about reducing the wheelbase though but hopefully someone will come along that does. I think that's the way to go. Getting the shell and decals and fitting them to another chassis. When/if the re-re comes it comes. It'd be a nice stop gap though.

Would the gearing allow for the fitment of larger wheels on the dt03? I remember when I had the idea of fitting larger wheels on my tl01b and was told because of its pinion options it's best to stick with standard sized tyres. I know you are the monsterising expert nito! 

[Terz1]

2 hours ago, Nitomor said:

I was thinking a modified DT03 would be quite a good candidate for a modern spin on the King cab. The wheelbase is a bit too long however at 287mm  Anyone know if it can be reduced a little on the DT-03 by flipping rear arms over or something?

 

I quoted what you said or it might have been missed on page one. I'd like to know too.

[Nitomor]

I don't know about gearing on the DT, but of course there is already the DT-03T Aqroshot. 7-10mm less on the wheelbase would be nice if it is possible. I like the direct steering arrangement of the DT03, it has the motor hanging out back like the KC and a bathtub type chassis with battery etc well protected, and rwd!

[kontemax]

10 hours ago, Terz1 said:

Very nice strokerBoy. Looks fantastic!

I wasn't sure what you meant the first two times kontemax but the third time you posted it all became clear! 

Sorry, the mobile...

 

Max

[kontemax]

10 hours ago, Terz1 said:

I think the chassis and types of vehicle the wt01 and king cab are completely different and the king cab is more a speed orientated chassis while the wt01 is a go anywhere, multi function basher orientated chassis. I always thought the stadium blitzer and stadium thunder were more comparable modern versions of the monster racer and king cab. Any experience of these kontemax? If so how do they comoare to your king cab?

How can I explain the feelings?

Well, I'll try to do it.

The King Cab chassis feels lighter and more agile. When you drive it in the rough terrain you can see its wheels absorbing the bumps with more elegance, faster, it seems a dance while the Wild Dagger wheels bump all around, the chassis seems heavy and goofy, with a big inertia. The King Cab chassis seems to eat the roughness of the ground, the Wild Dagger chassis seems suffer on it.

The King Cab chassis is a well balanced 2WD, it will never dive with the front end during a jump. The motor is in the correct position, behind the rear wheel axles, in the Wild Dagger is forward the rear wheels.

The King Cab has more traction during accelerations, the Wild Dagger is always skidding, no matter if 2WD or 4WD.

The King Cab has always the correct gear ratio, the WT01 gear ratio is always too high.

There's no way how the King Cab climbs. The WT01/WR01, no matter is 2WD or 4WD, doesn't climb like the King Cab.

Is the King Cab a pure racer? Yes! Is the King Cab the best basher I ever drove? Yes!

 

Max

[Saito2]

Despite being a far earlier release, the King Cab is much more sophisticated than the Dagger. It seems very purebred and elegant in it's performance. The Dagger on the other hand is more clunky and less graceful. Daggers are tough, bulletproof trucks but would never match a King Cab in performance.

[Nitomor]

Bring on the rere...thanks for the explanation Max. I can empathise with what you say about the WT, I wonder how much the King Cab weighs? My 4x4x4 WT01 with long travel suspension, being 500g heavier than the stock rwd seems to use its suspension far better than the regular WT and feels more planted too. The front tyres on the King Cab are reasonably heavy too so maybe that helps with utilising the suspension more rather than the skimming along the surface you describe with the KC, who knows but I do prefer the motor behind the wheels and I'd be sure to be a big fan if this does get re released!

 

 

[kontemax]

14 hours ago, Nitomor said:

Bring on the rere...thanks for the explanation Max. I can empathise with what you say about the WT, I wonder how much the King Cab weighs? My 4x4x4 WT01 with long travel suspension, being 500g heavier than the stock rwd seems to use its suspension far better than the regular WT and feels more planted too. The front tyres on the King Cab are reasonably heavy too so maybe that helps with utilising the suspension more rather than the skimming along the surface you describe with the KC, who knows but I do prefer the motor behind the wheels and I'd be sure to be a big fan if this does get re released!

 

 

If you want I can compare the weight of the two models.

 

Max

[Nitomor]

Hi Max,

If you wouldn't mind that would be great! I'd be interested to know. My RWD WT01 with polycarb shell is 2020g with mods such as jumbo servo, GPM mounts, longer shocks, beadlock rear tyres, bearings and brushless setup. My WT01 4x4x4 is exactly 500g more and with hard shell another 250g on top of that. The Lipo is then a further 220g on top just to throw some weights around!

Thanks,

Nito

[kontemax]

Ok, I'll try to do it in the week end, I'm working 15 hours a day.

 

Max

[Truck Norris]

Just weighed mine.

King Cab with radio gear but no battery is 1780g. Radio gear is Acoms AR-227FE, AS-7 servos x2 and MSC.

My RWD WT01 (Twin Detonator polycarb shell) is 1820g, again no battery. Hobbyking metal gear standard size servo and tiny Acoms GR-24 receiver. RCDamper alloy shock towers and Ansmann oil shocks.

ESC probably about the same weight as an MSC and servo? You wouldn't need the resistor though.

[Terz1]

That isn't as big a difference as I thought it would be. Which is nice. Thanks for taking the time to do that truck.

As I mentioned before I think the stadium blitzer and stadium thunder are the more comparable truggies to the king cab and monster racer than a wt01. Has anyone had the the experience of a king cab and a stadium blitzer and how they compare? It's been an idea of mine for a while to get the stadium blitzer and do the monster racer livery and dye the wheels red, may be raise the shell a bit too.

[Nitomor]

Thanks Truck, I really didn't expect the King Cab to be lighter. Cool. This thread made me curious about the 4wd Vajra, that weighs in at;

With metal geared servo, TT02B receiver box with Futaba 6ch rx and Quicrun 1060ESC. (No battery). Would be interesting to know the stadium blitzer and also an Aqroshot which for me is closest to KC with motor mounted out back and a reasonably enclosed chassis, shame the wheelbase is 10mm ish more.

 

[Terz1]

Wow your Vaj (love the name ) is much lighter nito. Just found an article which lists the stadium blitzers weight as 1260g. Very light! I don't know if that's including all the electrics etc.

http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/58482stadium_blitzer/index.htm

[Nitomor]

It surprised me, considering it's 4wd too, ok it has carbon deck etc but nice to know it does actually keep it light not just bling. I bought this to use but it looks so nice it may now be destined primarily for the shelf  

[Terz1]

I know how you feel. I build so many and think it's too nice to run now. Years back I built one which intentionally looked bad so I would actually use it.  I couldn't stand how it looked though and gave it a facelift. 

[Saito2]

In answer to the Blitzer vs King Cab question, I have both. The King Cab was arguably the first racing truck "kit", coming out before the Losi JRX-T. Though flawed, the transmission is a competition-style 3 main gear unit similar to those of the era. Despite the slipping ball diff, the trans is quite efficient otherwise. The steering uses a true bellcrank system. The suspension is a work of art with very long travel, adjustable camber and sway bars. This suspension means the King Cab eats up rough terrain and takes high jumps with ease. The truck was built with racing in mind. It sits rather high, like a truck, as that was the style at the time, but its not top heavy. 

The Blitzer mimics the lower, wider stadium-truggy style that came after the King Cab, akin to the original RC10T. However, the Blitzer was not designed for racing, rather just the look of it. It's mostly a re-tooled Bear Hawk (itself a mid-range, leisure oriented buggy). The transmission is big and bulky with tough chunky gears. Not the stuff of racing (especially with only 2 available ratios) but very bulletproof. The steering is direct and suffers from bumpsteer. The suspension is simple upper and lower fixed arm stuff (though turnbuckles could certainly be added for camber adjustments) The arms are tough and rubberery adding to the Blitzer's durability. The whole package works surprisingly well and is quite strong, but will never have the competition pedigree the King Cab had (or was at least aiming for).

I've been kicking the idea of really going to town on a Blitzer for years. The chassis would need to be a longer double-deck 'glass or carbon fiber piece. The Blitzer is too short and the battery sits the wrong way. A bellcrank steering system would be in order and likely taller, stiffer shock towers. I never got around to it, as bolting the Blitzer's simplistic plasticy front and rear assemblies to carbon fiber just seemed odd. The Futaba FXT  kind of went this route back in the day. A joint venture between Futaba and Tamiya, the truck had a black anodized aluminum tub chassis (similar to the RC10T), a special motor mount allowing 4 pinion selections and a ball diff added to Blitzer package. Its a fairly rare truck that most have forgotten.

[Terz1]

Brilliant info there saito it sounds like the king cab and monster racer have some pedigree and from what you mentioned the stadium blitzer isn't the same calibre even though it's a fantastic basher. It makes my decision to change the order of the king cab and monster racer back in the day at the LHS more regrettable now 

The futaba ftx does look impressive. Probably very rare too.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-electric-off-road-trucks-buggies-truggies-more-147/6898588-official-futaba-fxt-thread.html

[Nitomor]

Interesting stuff Saito, the Vajra has a bell crank steering setup but I'm not sold on the directness of it, I think the issue with that is the sloppy servo saver though, maybe I should put a ring on it...o,o,oh, o,o, oh, o, oh.

I just placed an order on Tamico for some spares for the WT's, mine and my boys took a spanking last time out. While there I seem to have accidentally on purpose hit the "in der warenkorb" (it's about the only German I speak thanks to Tamico) button on an Aqroshot. For 88 euros with CVA's etc it seemed good value and justifies the postage on the rest of the items. Might try a monster racer theme and see if there is any scope to reduce the wheelbase with it and use the Aqro shell as a basher shell for the Vajra since they use the same body. Would be interesting to have a play with this chassis, I'll weigh it up when built and post the results. 

The Japan show is only next weekend so let's hope we have some good news on the rere front

 

[Terz1]

Good job getting the aqroshot, good price too. You'll have to do a build thread if you do monster racer with it . I've got my fingers crossed for a surprise at the Japan show. 

[Wandy]

On 12/09/2016 at 2:49 AM, kontemax said:

I don't believe that Tamiya will re release these models due the terrible geartrain.

I'm amazed that we still see these kinds of comments. They brought back the Monster Beetle with it's exploding gearbox and the SRBs with no differential, a bendy piece of GRP for a chassis and a glass RC compartment and yet some still believe that a few teething problems with the King Cab's drivetrain would prevent a re-release? Not a chance.

The only thing that couldn't be justified for re-release so far, based on performance, was the original Holiday Buggy/Sand Rover and it wasn't really that surprising considering that chassis had the strength of balsa wood and an unsealed gearbox.

Pretty much everything else from #58027 onwards is up for grabs IMO.

[kontemax]

5 hours ago, Wandy said:

I'm amazed that we still see these kinds of comments. They brought back the Monster Beetle with it's exploding gearbox and the SRBs with no differential, a bendy piece of GRP for a chassis and a glass RC compartment and yet some still believe that a few teething problems with the King Cab's drivetrain would prevent a re-release? Not a chance.

Probably you don't know well the King Cab geartrain as I know it.

In the King Cab geartrain you break everything.

The iddle gear is prone to consume the teeth in one side and to break the teeth in the other side.

The second gear of the spur gear is prone to consume or break the teeth.

The differential gear is prone to break the teeth.

The ball differential will endure minutes with a motor faster than a silver can (a Dyna Run Stock motor is more than enough to destroy it).

The A1 gear brace is prone to break.

All the gears are quickly prone to great consuption due the unsealed gearbox (that is not a box at the end).

The differential outdrives are prone to great and quick consuption.

The half shafts are prone to great and quick consuption

The wheel axles are prone to great and quick consuption.

The Universal Joint Axles are prone to great consuption in the inner side and to break in the outer side.

There's no way to fix this geartrain. When you fix a part you break another part. No way. The geartrain is simply under dimensioned and badly designed.

Except the geartrain the King Cab has also some defects and weak points:

- Chassis/bumper mount.

- Chassis/steering links mount.

- Skid plate.

- Chassis/Skid Plate mount.

- Body mounts.

- Battery holders.

- Front steering knuckles.

- Rear upper arms mounts.

- Chassis/top rear end.

- Rear hubs.

Net of all this, the King Cab is an excellent and funny basher and runner, depending the tires you will mount.

With the low profile racing tires will be fast on the track, with the tall profile monster truck tires will be an excellent basher and jumper but the King Cab will always be a model that needs a lot of work to reduce the problems. On contrary it will be a very frustrating model.

I should open a thread only to describe the modification that I made on mine to be a little bit reliable.

Once said all this, Tamiya can re-release what it thinks to be meritorious to be re-released in its opinion. For sure I will be glad if Tamiya will re-release the King Cab but I believe that will be almost impossible. If Tamiya will need my experience to enhance the King Cab, well, it knows where it can find me.

 

Max

[Mokei Kagaku]

5 hours ago, kontemax said:

.......In the King Cab geartrain you break everything......

...the King Cab will always be a model that needs a lot of work to reduce the problems. On contrary it will be a very frustrating model.....

Max

 

11 hours ago, Wandy said:

I'm amazed that we still see these kinds of comments. They brought back the Monster Beetle with it's exploding gearbox and the SRBs with no differential, a bendy piece of GRP for a chassis and a glass RC compartment and yet some still believe that a few teething problems with the King Cab's drivetrain would prevent a re-release? Not a Chance.

I kind of agree with you both.  When the re-re Frog was announced, I was confident that Tamiya wouldn't release it with the original gearbox virtually unchanged. They did, and I think it's barely acceptable. Then, when the re-re Monster Beetle was announced, I was even more convinced that Tamiya would do major changes to the original design, and if I remember correctly, you and I discussed this quite a lot Wandy (?), and you were right. I don't mind losing a bet, especially when it wasn't really one ;-), but I still think it's totally inacceptable of Tamiya to keep such a poor design as it suffers even more with the big tires and lower gear ratio. Sure, it has a nice element of nostalgia, but look at what Kyosho is doing with their re-releases! I don't have to consider for a second which approach I prefer.

 

So, as Tamiya could re-release the Monster Beetle and Blackfoot (ORV for short) almost unchanged, that would to some degree indicate they could do the same with the King Cab/Hilux (KC). Both gearboxes can't be fixed and made reliable using just parts available from Tamiya and they are massively flawed and fragile in stock form. However, I think there is a major difference, that made it much less dissatisfying and less frustrating to repair and service ORV's for customers than it was with the KC's. The ORV gearbox/driveshafts would always make a lot of undue noises, vibrate and skip teeth and "hexes" and it would wear pretty fast in the hands of most customers, but it could be made to last for a while. Long enough to allow customers to have fun and not feeling they had to replace parts or turn in the model for repairs all the time. The KC gearbox however, even though our learning curve was steep and we improved the assembly process over time, would never last for an acceptable time between repairs, making customers unsatisfied and incapable of enjoying their model in a way we never experienced with the ORV.

 

In the hands of an experienced enthusiast and proactively maintained, a KC gearbox's durability can be acceptable, especially as most have many other models and don't run each model that much. For the typical buyer however, who would run his/her KC as often and much as possible (and then some!) and didn't have the experience or motivation to maintain a lot, it was terrible.

 

As for the other weaknesses you mention Max, I don't at all disagree, but most of those problems will be found in many models of that time, and many of them in the ORV too.

 

So, I thought Tamiya couldn't possibly re-release the ORV without major changes to the gearbox and it certainly didn't stop them from doing it, so I won't bet a cent that the same can't happen with the KC. I think it would be even more inacceptable though!

I kind of

 

[Nitomor]

OMG.

Perhaps I'll just stick with the WT01

 

 

[kontemax]

I agree with all things you wrote and let me explain better.

The King Cab was so funny to drive that I lost so many time to repair it that is the same amount I spent in all other models I own and I used.

This means that everytime I exited home to drive it was a sort of challenge about how many minutes the model ran before a breakage. The model was always dismantled almost one time per exit on the run place. I used it as a basher because it is a pure jump breed element.

Probably the Monster Beetle tires did their job to grind the geartrain but my friends with the same model and normal track tires suffered the same problems. The geartrain was a bad geartrain for the Astute already, that is a fast, quick an lighter model, what do you think could happen on a heavy big and fast model?

I remember that I must learn to drive it to avoid breakages, if not after every single jump a gearset were gone destroyed. I remember that I changed five or more gearsets on this model, I had a cemetery of gears and A1 parts in the toolbox.

After the King Cab is arrived the Wild Dagger, a bombproof model but the chassis was half of the fun to drive. The winning points of the King Cab were its weight, the balance, the gear ratios, the suspensions and the dampers that are all the weak points of the Wild Dagger. Another world that never totally conquered me again.

 

Max