Derka

Tamiya Touring Chassis brushed motor compatability?

Recommended Posts

Hi,

I recently purchased a TT-02 D for club racing at my local indoor carpet track. I really enjoyed the build and taking my time painting the shell and applying the decals. However, the TT-02 has its limitations out the box. There is no adjustable front toe, front or rear camber and rear toe in without spending upwards of £80 on Yeah Racing aluminium parts and the Tamiya Steering upgrade.

I sold the TT-02D on instead of throwing money at it and purchased a Schumacher Mi5 Evo used but I cannot fit my Tamiya Sport Tuned brushed motor to the motor mount because of the pinion shaft collar/bushing and the fact the two holes in the motor could not match up with the chassis motor mount holes. I tried a Etronix 21T tuned motor, which has a smaller bush/collar but still ran into problems. Its not surprising really as I guess its a full fat racer designed for Brushless and LiPo.

Our club runs Brushed and NiMH because its a small track and we want it to be affordable for everyone so a Brushless setup was not accepted so I'm selling the Mi5 Evo.

I'm back looking at touring cars, from Tamiya. The TA-0x and the TRF Family but I don't know if they are designed to only take Brushless motors or not?

From my research from reading manuals the TA-01 through TA-05 all definitely take Brushed motors. The TA-06 and 07 show pictures of Brushless motors in the manual so I assume a brushed motor wouldn't fit?

I'm fairly new to Tamiya models and on-road carpet racing so I'm struggling a bit trying to find what will take a brushed motor in the TRF Family, Possibly only the 414?

Ideally id like the newest Tamiya that still supports running the Tamiya Sport tuned motor or a Brushed motor so that parts support is still available.

Any helps on what chassis take brushed motors would be great.

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The size and mountings are the same for brushed and brushless so you can run either in any chassis that accepts a 540 sized motor. Issues usually arise from components being stressed by to much power but if you're doing the opposite that won't be a problem.

Newer chassis are photographed with newer motors, that's all, and most buyers of the TRF range will be running brushless.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the want or need to try and restrict the speed and cost of getting into the hobby by continuing to use brushed motors, but I cant help but feel that you are fighting a losing battle...

With a lot of Tamiya cars now coming with a TBLE02S Brushed/Brushless ESC, why wouldn't you look at allowing a brushless motor similar in performance to the brushed Tamiya Sport Tuned motor?

Maybe one of the inexpensive 21.5 or 17.5  sensored motors from HobbyKing or Speed Passion might be suitable.. You may need to limit the gear ratio to keep the parity between the 2 motor types, but if you have racers buying 3-4 Sport Tuned motors a year, then you have just paid for a Brushless motor and ESC..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Truck Norris said:

The size and mountings are the same for brushed and brushless so you can run either in any chassis that accepts a 540 sized motor. Issues usually arise from components being stressed by to much power but if you're doing the opposite that won't be a problem.

Newer chassis are photographed with newer motors, that's all, and most buyers of the TRF range will be running brushless.


With the higher end race cars, the fitment issues arise in the cars motor plate where there is not always provision for the larger bearing on the mounting face of the 540/Sport Tuned motor to fit through.. Brushless motors don't have a protruding bearing on the motor face..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Truck Norris!

So I could buy the current TA-07 and a brushed motor would fit that standard mount? Just you mention that the size and mounting are the same for 540 sized brushed and brushless motors, except that's not what I experienced with the Schumacher so I assume you are referring to the Tamiya chassis where they will all accommodate a Brushed and Brushless motors?

In regards to Brushless, I appreciate its more efficient, zero maintenance etc but we only have around 7 members with a mix of chassis all running Brushed. If one runs Brushless, for instance a 1800kv on 2S LiPo it means that car is always going to have a slight edge on acceleration. Pretty much all members wouldn't want to spend £70 on a brushless setup even if they knew its actually more economically viable. I have tried on various occasions to push the matter but it falls on muted ears unfortunately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If memory serves, a 21.5t on the tamiya tble-02s is slower than a silver can on the same esc with the same gearing, wheels, and tyres.

To make the transition easier, your club could look into doing a bulk purchase of say the tamiya tble-02s esc and some 21.5t sensored motors, and then sell them onto the members. With a good deal, the club could make a little money back, whilst allowing the members to get a good bargain. The club however will have to change the rules for the class to ensure everyone in that class moves to the brushless system, either by getting it through their own personal channels, or via the club.

what you could do, if your willing, before you sell that Mi5 evo chassis, is stick a 21.5t motor in it with the tble-02s esc, and put it through it's paces at your track, get some of the other racers to run the track with you, this might be all they need to move from brushed to brushless.

I've used the silver can and 21.5t as a starting point, if your fellow racers are using faster brushed motors, then look at upping the ante in the brushless motors

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the feedback.

The Brushless combos are not much more money then a £30 brushed ESC and £20 brushed motor. Even more so when you consider a brushed motor will need replacing every few months (ish) making the brushless motor much more financial sense.

The TBLE-02S doesn't support LiPo cut off, only LiFe, I believe? I have the one from the TT-02D.

Tempted to try a 21.5 Brushless motor just to test.

Our current limit is 21T brushed motors

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The feedback im getting is our members don't want to spend much on upgrading there cars to brushless so brushed remains.

 

So back on topic... Any one know what is the latest chassis that fits Brushed motors?

 

Im thinking TA05/TA05 v2?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Backlash for taking the time.

I have actually posted the £55 combo on the group and no takers. They're all cash shy and don't want to, or see the need to upgrade to brushless so Brushed it is unfortunately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the car that you have wont take a brushed motor, then what are you expected to do?? Personally I'd just buy a brushless motor and ESC and run that, but gear it so that its the same speed as everyone else.. After they have all replaced their Sport Tuned motors a few time throughout the year, maybe they will start to turn toward your way of thinking...

AND, if the clubs current BRUSHED motor limit is a 21 turn, then maybe you should buy a 13.5 BL motor and really put the cat amongst the Pidgeons.. LOL.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__39887__Turnigy_TrackStar_13_5T_Sensored_Brushless_Motor_3040KV_UK_Warehouse_.html

And Yes, you can get that in a motor / esc combo as well..

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__74353__TrackStar_ROAR_approved_1_10th_Stock_Class_Brushless_ESC_and_Motor_Combo_13_5T_UK_Warehouse_.html

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I bought the car on the premise it would take a brushed motor. It doesn't. So I will sell it as its not suitable.

It is my club and my rules based on feedback from the members that they are happy running what they got, which is old Tamiya stuff and some other quite old brushed touring cars and they have no inclination to upgrade. Sure, I could run brushless but for the sake of fairness and an equal playing field I will run brushed too. It is a shame, but I have to listen to my clubs members as they're the ones who pay the venue hire :)

 



 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Derka said:

Thanks Backlash for taking the time.

I have actually posted the £55 combo on the group and no takers. They're all cash shy and don't want to, or see the need to upgrade to brushless so Brushed it is unfortunately.


I understand what you're saying.. A similar thing happened at my club when LiPo batteries first came out.. What we ended up doing to those that were diehard NiMh fans was put a LiPo in their car, and let them run one for a race.. It didn't take long to convince them of the error in their way of thinking.. :D

The same happened with brushless motors.. There was a 540 silver can class that was very popular, and some wanted to start running brushless motors, so they ran 21.5 BL motors.. It took a while, but eventually everyone converted over to brushless..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

your correct, the tble-02s doesn't have lipo cut off, but lipo alarms are cheap, that said there are many different brushless esc's that are cheap, but they all act differently, by using a uniform esc and uniform motor everyone is on the same plane.

the down side to using a cheaper esc is the lack of ways to easily and quickly identify when a setting is different from one to the next. which means the pre/post race checks may miss something which gives 1 driver an edge over others, the race esc's generally have what is called blinky mode, which is 0 timing, no boost, no turbo, and a light, or pattern of lights that blink to indicate the esc is in that mode. The tble-02s, even with it's lack of lipo cutoff, is a good option to set as a stock esc, the settings, timing, boost, turbo, brake, etc, are all preset and unchangable, making it a good alternative to race spec esc.

 

I think the 17.5t brushless motor is on par for a 21t brushed motor, tho stock classes for onroad isn't my strong point, well, stock classes in any form aren't my strong suit.

 

And back to your OP, most motor mounts in kits today are designed with the expectation they will be run with a flat faced bushless motor, and not a brushed motor, to my knowledge only tamiya still builds to accept brushed motors, and maybe older brands like kyosho. I know here in NZ the M chassis racing is about the only class still running brushed motors, that class of racing is very restrictive, kit stock format with bearings and cva's being the only allowed hopup's, it's not a class run at my local club, so never really looked into it, but it is popular in the north island.

 

Something that may help shake them of their aversion to spending money, is look at their cars, if they are running xray's serpents, mugen's, etc then point out they have a car worth a couple of 100 quid, and are putting a 100 odd quid into it each year to keep it running, instead of spending 50ish quid once a year or even longer. If they are all running tamiya's, point out that they are spending the value of a kit pretty much each year in motors alone, instead of half the value of the kit most likely once for the life of the car.

 

I know people like them, they don't see the whole picture, just the immediate cost to them right there, not what they will spend in 3 months time, and not what they spent 2 weeks ago. Have a friend that was like this, both him and his wife, took me about 6 months of me saying things like "have you broken more parts?" and "waiting on those parts to arrive still are you?" and the best one that I used in front of his wife "so how much have you spent on parts for this car now? reckon you could have brought an ex race one by now", 2 weeks after that last one he was asking me to find him something better than he had *lol*

backlash is making a good case, just fit a comparable brushless setup in the car you have, and go practice with it, tell them your tired of wasting money buying cars to find one that will work with brushed motors, while allowing you to set it up to suit your driving style, and that forcing any possible new comers to conform to using cars that don't allow this will kill the club in the long term, as no one in their right mind would be willing to put such constrants on themselves.

to give some perspective, it would be like the btcc or dtm turning around and saying everyone has to use this chassis from the 1960's with this 1600 cc motor as that's the only motor the chassis will accept, no modifications are allowed to the motor or chassis except for a protective roll cage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

an addendum to my last post

I can't stand people that refuse to see past the end of their nose, let alone see the benefits of moving to a more cost effective form of anything. it's great to relive the past in some ways, it's bad for everything and everyone to remain in the past due to shortsightedness or closed mindedness.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Darat76 said:

an addendum to my last post

I can't stand people that refuse to see past the end of their nose, let alone see the benefits of moving to a more cost effective form of anything. it's great to relive the past in some ways, it's bad for everything and everyone to remain in the past due to shortsightedness or closed mindedness.

 

And you will probably find that the one person who is screaming the loudest about running brushed motors now, will be the first one to want to change to brushless when he/she has to upgrade his/her old car due to not being able to buy parts for it..

One more thing..

If these guys (and girls) are currently running quite old TC's, and you go out and buy a High End current model TC, you may find that there is going to be a considerable parity issue in the chassis itself.....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup. All issues I have raised but they all say the same thing.

 

'I dont want to spend much'

' Im not bothered about being the fastest'

All the cars are quite old, the Mi5 Evo is very modern chassis but it wouldnt be fully exploited as we only have a small ish oval.

I appreciate the help guys, I am converted to brushless and always was but my members are happy running brushed (For now!!)

In regards to my original question what would you recommend?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd go TA07 personally. It's really very new so parts support will be good, can accommodate brushed motors and will be upgradeable with lots of trick bits still being developed. 

TA05 would be my second choice. I love mine, it doesn't get used enough and is very much a case of the car being far more capable than the driver. It was a big step forward over the TA 04, whereas feedback on the TA06 (which I concede I have never owned / built / even examined up close) are that it was more of an evolution of the TA05 - it brought nothing new to the party.

All of the above is opinion and may even be utter cobblers.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Chris,

Thank you.

How certain are you the TA07 will take a brushed motor?

Is the TA-05 still in production in any way shape or form or am I going to have to find a used one?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got to ask.. Are these guys running LiPo batteries, or are they still using NiCd/NiMh batteries??

(Are you using LiPo batteries?)

If I was in your position, and wanted a BL motor that is similar in performance to a Sport Tuned, then I would probably buy a Trackstar 17.5 BL motor... (Its been a few years since I last raced, but I believe that they run 17.5 BL motor and *Blinky ESC as the "Stock" (27 turn brushed stock motor) equivalent at off-road here in Australia)

If you need an ESC as well, then I'd buy a Trackstar combo.. I would also buy the program card, as it appears that this ESC has adjustable timing / boost settings which may help you with the parity issue.. If the 17.5 is too fast, then you can either gear down, or take some timing off the motor, or maybe detune it on the ESC..

* Blinky mode on the ESC means that thee Timing and Turbo Boost settings in the ESC are set to 0 (zero).. You can still physically alter the motors timing though..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

given that about 99% of all tamiya kits have, do, and will come with silver can motors, the ta07 will take a brushed motor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Derka said:

How certain are you the TA07 will take a brushed motor?

 

This TA07 looks to have a 540 silver can in it..
 

0048_TD_Tamiya_TA07_Build.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The guys are indeed running 6-cell NiMH.

Hmmm. TA07 could be the car as its current and would take brushless if (when) we go brushless!

 

Hopefully the TA07 will take 6-cell NiMH lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Derka said:

The guys are indeed running 6-cell NiMH.

Hmmm. TA07 could be the car as its current and would take brushless if (when) we go brushless!

 

Hopefully the TA07 will take 6-cell NiMH lol

unless it's setup for shorty lipos, or saddle packs, it will take a nimh/nicad, and the chances of tamiya changing battery styles now is so slim it would even register :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Awesome. Well, the TA07 generally seems to have been accepted as a good club racer. Its got a fairly hefty price tag though of £200!
Food for thought tomorrow TA05 vs TA07!

 

Thank you guys :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now