Saito2

What the heck is that?!?! i.e. current bodies

Recommended Posts

I think there is a parallel in 1:1 to a certain extent. F1 cards are now ugly (IMHO) combinations of wings, spoilers and diffusers - not beautiful like the cars of the 60s, 70s and even 80s. Modern road cars are all way too similar - generic blobs, with very little to separate them. The last truly 'different' UK road cars (again IMHO) were the Audi TT and the Ford Puma.

When the Wild One, the Sand Scorcher, Blazer, etc. were released, they were more or less contemporary with their 1:1 equivalents. The trouble is that there is nothing particularly interesting looks wise in modern motorsport, so it's no wonder that RC has been left to follow it's own path.

Of course, this could all be massive bias due to nostalgia...

Seems to happen everywhere though - compare the Gloucester Meteor with the F35. Maybe it's just inevitable?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

I have always thought it's crucial to keep even racing models realistic and resembling real cars to attract new people to the hobby, and though many other factors are involved too, I think the lack of realism and "connection" to real world cars is a significant reason why so (relatively) few people are now attracted to RC-racing.

This might account for the growing popularity of the VTA on-road class.  25.5T motor restriction keeps the speed down to scale and there is the (infrequently enforced) requirement that all cars have a driver figure.  This class above all others is the most realistic of any racing class I am aware of. 

897782d1332457293-u-s-vintage-trans-am-r

Another fast growing area of the hobby is crawling.  The level of scale detail is incredible!

13413255_109091716188056_1814150754_n.jp

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cause nothing looks more "scale" than a 68 camaro pulling 9 G's in a turn. :rolleyes:

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, 94eg! said:

Cause nothing looks more "scale" than a 68 camaro pulling 9 G's in a turn. :rolleyes:

But can it pull 94eg!s in a turn?:P

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2016 at 9:12 PM, 94eg! said:

Cause nothing looks more "scale" than a 68 camaro pulling 9 G's in a turn. :rolleyes:

Yeah exactly.... How many mid-engine AWD Camaros have been made so far? :D

To rebel, my VTA car is bodied with a DeTomaso Pantera.   It's a VTA rule bender, but makes more sense.

If I ever got serious about VTA, I'd build one of those XV01 Pro TCs.

Or take one of those MST FXX-Ds and set it up for grip racing ^_^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess my point was that when you are actually racing, it doesn't matter what body is on the cars.  That is if you enjoy the actual racing portion. The cars move so quickly you cannot discern any scale details whatsoever. And the cars do not move in any way that could be considered scale to their 1:1 counterpart.  So what's the point?  If you just want cool bodies to look at on the pit benches, then I feel you may be missing the point of a racing competition.

Even ultra scale off-road truck builds like the one pictured a few posts back look cool in photos....but in action they seem anything but scale.  Since you cannot scale physics, they simply bounce and bobble around unrealistically.  Would probably appear exceptionally realistic with a high-speed camera making the film slow, but otherwise they look almost comical in action.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 94eg! said:

...... So what's the point?  .......

Because that was the part that captured my imagination at 8 years old and got me into the hobby to begin with. But still, you do make a fair point. Good job there's a lot of variety for us to choose from.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/10/2016 at 6:04 AM, Mokei Kagaku said:

I know next to nothing about serious slot car racing, but the wing car bodies have looked more or less the same (for my untrained eye) for at least 4 decades now, so I reckon (and hope!) the foils and wings really make sense.

As for the "cutting edge" design of RC-bodies, I think the difference it makes is mostly noticable for really good drivers only. For most of us, it's more about the placebo effect.  Having the latest and best gives a good feeling, which is perfectly legitimate. For some however, it's also about not admitting that their skills and knowledge aren't adequate for actually having a benefit in using the "best" bodies.

 

 

camencar.jpg

Image-3996070-123091599-2-WebSmall_0_8863a6cdf1d4c0e930a37a88f36cbfc4_1.jpg

wing-car.jpg

Wing-Cars-710x270.jpg

I was curious seeing your post and slot car pics.  I had no idea these things got up to the speeds they do.  I thought Mini4WD speeds were crazy... these things are like racing photons in fiber-optic cables.  Just a blur... amazing.  Obviously there's an important distinction between the extreme adaptation of the slot car bodies and the more general lack of concern for scale details on modern R/C race cars: the slot cars need to always stay in contact with the track, lacking batteries and being dependent on that constant contact for power.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎16‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 6:30 PM, 94eg! said:

I guess my point was that when you are actually racing, it doesn't matter what body is on the cars.  That is if you enjoy the actual racing portion. The cars move so quickly you cannot discern any scale details whatsoever. And the cars do not move in any way that could be considered scale to their 1:1 counterpart.  So what's the point?  If you just want cool bodies to look at on the pit benches, then I feel you may be missing the point of a racing competition.

Even ultra scale off-road truck builds like the one pictured a few posts back look cool in photos....but in action they seem anything but scale.  Since you cannot scale physics, they simply bounce and bobble around unrealistically.  Would probably appear exceptionally realistic with a high-speed camera making the film slow, but otherwise they look almost comical in action.

My steel hulled King tiger drove in a scale manner and didn't bounce around thanks to its 10.5Kg weight, :), but unfortunately the gearbox also behaved in a scale manner and shredded itself on the first outing ......:(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote= Mokei Kagaku] As for the "cutting edge" design of RC-bodies, I think the difference it makes is mostly noticable for really good drivers only. For most of us, it's more about the placebo effect[/quote]

I noticed this line the quote two posts above and wanted to touch on this specifically to kinda help everyone...

Race bodies are not a bolt-on-and-go-faster item.  They are a tuning option. The difference between a good driver and an amateur is that they understand what the different bodies and body-settings provide, and select accordingly.  It is a tuning option that can alter the balance between the front & rear tires or even help increase low-speed grip or high-speed stability.  It is in no way a placebo.  For a mid to expert level driver, selecting the correct body WILL make the car go quicker around the track.  Selecting the wrong body can make an over-steer or under-steer nightmare on the track.  Most racers that run the same track all the time, stick with one body that works best for them.

Protoform bodies I am familiar with:

- Mazda 6 most rear bias (understeer and very stable at higher speed)
- Mazdaspeed 6 most balanced for my 415MSXXMRE (good balance)
- LTC-R a little front bias (light oversteer & less high-speed stability)
- R9R a lot of front bias (most oversteer and I never wanted to try it)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, 94eg! said:

[quote= Mokei Kagaku] As for the "cutting edge" design of RC-bodies, I think the difference it makes is mostly noticable for really good drivers only. For most of us, it's more about the placebo effect[/quote]

I noticed this line the quote two posts above and wanted to touch on this specifically to kinda help everyone...

Race bodies are not a bolt-on-and-go-faster item.  They are a tuning option. The difference between a good driver and an amateur is that they understand what the different bodies and body-settings provide, and select accordingly.  It is a tuning option that can alter the balance between the front & rear tires or even help increase low-speed grip or high-speed stability.  It is in no way a placebo.  For a mid to expert level driver, selecting the correct body WILL make the car go quicker around the track.  Selecting the wrong body can make an over-steer or under-steer nightmare on the track.  Most racers that run the same track all the time, stick with one body that works best for them.

I'm fully aware of and agree with you on all the technical aspects. I also agree that they make a significant difference for expert drivers, possibly also mid level drivers, depending on the definition of "mid" level. My remark about "placebo effect" was meant for all drivers below expert and mid level. (Thus my remark about "really good drivers" in my previous post)

When I started racing in the early 80's, I wanted all the best parts although my knowledge and overall skills were way too low to benefit from the minor differences between the best and "just" "2nd/3rd-best" parts. Before the 1/12 carpet national championship in 1982, I discussed with the previous national champion and he kindly and patiently (more than I deserved) told me to run what I already had. I didn't listen to him and bought the best I could get (including body). I ended up around 60th place of about 130 participants (1/12 was BIG at that time!) and later it became clear to me that the difference between having the best and "2nd best" with my limited skills and knowledge wouldn't have been significant.

Shortly after, I started to work for the Tamiya distributor and in parallel for a major hobby shop, and over 17 years, I experienced similar behaviour from customers and fellow racers countless times. People who were obsessed about "needing" the best, thinking and even claiming it did a difference, when they in reality neither had the knowledge, nor technical/driving skills for it to make any significant difference. And THAT's where the placebo effect comes in.

As stated earlier in this thread, of course the "sum" of even the tiniest differences add up to a real advantage for the best drivers, but the majority of drivers have too many major deficits for the potentially same advantage to make a significant difference.

A bold example for fun; We had a customer who repeatedly moaned about the "variation" of hardness in different batches of the same type of tires, claiming that the "variation" made some tires "totally unuseable" for him. Measuring the hardness with a high grade shoremeter, the actual variations were well within tolerances. In fact, they were even within Gauge R&R (insignificant variation in repeatability and reliability of measuring "methods" of different skilled shoremeter users).  A bit later, he bought a Voltec Fighter for his son (roughly 5 yo) and then returned it, being "disappointed". I kept that Voltec Fighter and disassembled it, just to find several assembly errors, including a missing bearing. So, a customer who claimed that literally immeasureable (imho imaginary) "variations" meant "win or lose" to him, actually wasn't even capable of assemblying Tamiya's by far simplest model with the clearest assembly manual to an acceptable standard.

Still, he considered himself to be an "expert" driver and mechanic, and blaimed the lack of success on the track on real but tiny or even imaginary differences between parts and even batches of the same parts, instead of admitting that he needed to learn and practice a lot more.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

Still, he considered himself to be an "expert" driver and mechanic, and blaimed the lack of success on the track on real but tiny or even imaginary differences between parts and even batches of the same parts, instead of admitting that he needed to learn and practice a lot more.

You can meet people like this at pretty much any track on any given evening or weekend, and probably in pretty much every other hobby / sport too.  IMO they're all part of the great assortment of different types you can meet in this hobby, along with the "just for fun-er", the "I only come for the social-er", the "I treat every race like the last round of the world championship-er" and the "If I win I'll post an acceptance speech on Facebook that would shame an Oscar winner-er" :D

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the term is 'All the gear, no idea'

I tell people that they just need to run what they have at the track until they can avoid hitting the boards consistently. Some listen, some just buy a fast motor and a top end car and hit the boards harder and break more expensive parts.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

I kept that Voltec Fighter and disassembled it, just to find several assembly errors, including a missing bearing.

This highly amuses me. Thanks for sharing that story! :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/27/2016 at 4:10 AM, qatmix said:

I think the term is 'All the gear, no idea'

I tell people that they just need to run what they have at the track until they can avoid hitting the boards consistently. Some listen, some just buy a fast motor and a top end car and hit the boards harder and break more expensive parts.

When I moved from a ta05 to a trf415 I broke less parts and they were cheaper and easier to swap out too. Also switching to race bodies cost a lot less than the scale bodies. They even lasted longer too and were easier to find identical replacements. The car handled a lot better and was much more consistent from race to race. I was a novice at the time of the changes, and I never progressed past the sportsman level. I'm more of a mechanic than a driver.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 28/10/2016 at 5:05 PM, 94eg! said:

When I moved from a ta05 to a trf415 I broke less parts and they were cheaper and easier to swap out too. Also switching to race bodies cost a lot less than the scale bodies. They even lasted longer too and were easier to find identical replacements. The car handled a lot better and was much more consistent from race to race. I was a novice at the time of the changes, and I never progressed past the sportsman level. I'm more of a mechanic than a driver.

I started racing on carpet with a TT01, the only mods being bearings, Tamiya CVAs and foam tyres.  I drove it for about 6 months but never really got the hang of not smashing it into every barrier going.

Then I switched to a Corally RDX and immediately found I could power down the straights without it wibbly-wobbling sideways into the barriers.  It would actually track straight under power.

A few years later I returned to carpet racing after a long lay-off with a TA05 IFS.  I never did manage to get it to handle right.  I swapped to conventional front suspension and a Protoform body but still had terrible trouble with understeer in and oversteer out.  One day I swapped transmitters with the club champion's TA06 and immediately put in my personal FTD.  Meanwhile he was rotating my TA05 out of every corner.  I stripped and rebuilt that car, eventually sold it to someone else, but nobody could ever get it to perform on carpet.

Back this summer I was having a horrible time getting some solid laptimes on a little friendly grass track meet with my modded Bear Hawk.  A friend lent me his Yokomo Hot Dog and for the first time all day, I felt like I was driving a car that would go exactly where I pointed it.  I'm by no means a good driver but I actually felt like I could have competed with that car rather than turning up and making a fool of myself :D

I'm not suggesting that everyone goes straight for a top-spec race car before they've got their driving skills sorted, but some cars are so bad that you pretty much have to be a national-level racer just to get them around the track :P 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now