Good trade? Avante for Dyna Storm?

[ideal2k]

quote:Originally posted by mud4fun

Now, problem is your in Norway aren't you? going to be difficult to arrange a race......

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Nah, Ryan Air only charge like £25 for each way flight []

[mud4fun]

We'll have to try and arrange something for the next TC event. Hopefully we'll have a big meeting at Clumber or somewhere in the next few months, maybe a Winter Drive. You could come over and have a long weekend playing Tamiya! [8D] We'd sort the race out while you where over here.

I need to save up and buy some lap timing/race equipment, don't really want to be sat there counting upto a 1000 laps......

Anyway, better leave Twmasters post alone now, we've hijacked it enough!

Twmaster, I hope you get sorted on that Dyna Storm, I'm sure you won't be disappointed []

[Lucodeath2]

Do it on bumpy grass an my Thundershot will kick backside! stick the seesaw in line an im laughin.

Flat sandy track an I would use my inferno to stand a chance.

[El Mexican]

The DS is a very buggy.

Id call it the best 2wb buggy Tamiya has ever made, mainly because its beatiful, quiet and fast.

Its also very tough. Its chassis flexes very little and its FRP shock towers can take hard hits without problems (dont ask how I know this).

[mjohnston39]

quote:FRP shock towers can take hard hits without problems (dont ask how I know this).

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I know this too (again don't ask how []), very well built and designed car, fun for casual running. Probably not competitive with the newer B4s etc...

Mike.

[Twmaster]

I think I am just going to sell the Avante as I have no interest in it.

[8)]

[TamiyaDan]

delete.

[mud4fun]

TamiyaDan, a few things here that need clarifying:

1) Nearly all Tamiya buggies sold are run as bashers NOT as race machines on carefully prepared surfaces. My comments about ruggedness are more inline with the majority of users than the minority of racers.

2) I was commenting on relative ruggedness to other (cheaper) buggies available at the same time in STOCK form. You even contradicted yourself by admitting that even you had to seek out hop-up parts to solve inherent waeknesses in the design.

3) I also raced an Avante when it was new and I still suffered catostrophic failure of major components from fatigue rather than impacts. This basically rules out the UV effect on the parts. In fact the weakest parts are the alloy front uprights and I am not aware of UV degrading such parts. I went thru loads even when they were brand new back then.

4) The Avante2001 is a very heavy car, with the same motor, battery and ESC it is 150g heavier than a similarly equipped thundershot or Manta Ray. That extra weight either reduces speed or run time. In fact I have done many tests between these buggies, running in stock form with identical motors, batteries etc and the thundershot is quicker over all surfaces other than tarmac. While the Avante2001 has a much more efficient drivetrain it can't make up the deficit in weight.

5) I have a low opinion of these cars for other reasons too. They were badly designed so that maintenance was more difficult and time consuming than on the cheaper buggies.

The motor was very difficult to remove without first removing the pinion from inside the gearbox which meant removing five screws and the top case. The Vanquish was the worst for this, the Avante2001 little better. In comparison you could remove the motor from a thundershot/manta ray in a few seconds.

To replace a battery on the vanquish meant removing the shell, removing two clips and then trying to get the battery compartment door free. This usually jams when it is covered in dirt and grit. The Avante2001 still requires removal of shell and has a fiddly retaining bracket. The thundershot has a simple swivel bracket and the battery can be changed with the shell still in place.

There are many more such maintenance issues between the two cars which is why in my opinion the thundershot/manta ray designs are far superior for use as a basher. True, in racing terms it doesn't matter as you have half an hour between races to change pinion etc but if you are out bashing that time become tedious.

If you're out playing in the snow and ice it becomes even more apparent how awful the battery compartment design is of the vanquish. If you have frozen fingers trying to remove so many pins and pry open plastic covers is just not pleasant. Being able to lift and swing a simple arm is so much better.

For those that haven't seen these cars up close and personal this is what I mean:

The clearance behind a motor in the Vanquish:

as you can see, there isn't any room to remove motor as the endbell is sat hard against a chassis crossmember.

and behind the Avante2001:

little better, servo post gets in the way.

and on a thundershot:

no problems

and on a manta ray:

no problems

Battery compartment on vanquish:

pins get grit on them and lid jams in place. (Note crow bar in background [] )

On thundershot:

simple swing arm.

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It is true that with hop-up parts the Avante family could perform better but that is also true of a thundershot/terra scorcher.

It is also true that all cars suffer breakage from either fatigue or impact damage but in my opinion the Avante family of cars suffer breakages sooner and cost more to repair. Again, this is more of an issue to a basher not a racer.

If you ran a Vanquish and Avante2001 you'd know that the Vanquish was more rugged simply because it had longer suspension travel. The yellow CVA shocks up front on the vanquish allowed nearly 3/8" more travel than the stock Avante2001 items. This extra travel reduced impact damage on the structural components. The Vanquish also had a different shock layout at the rear. The vanquish shocks sat ahead of the axle line which gave considerably longer travel than on the Avante2001 where they were behind the axle. The vanquish also had greater ground clearance which made it more suitable for rougher tracks. However, the vanquish had plastic shock towers which break on the first heavy roll. The Avante2001 was much stronger in that respect.

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In truth we are both correct in our own assessments because we are talking about running these cars in two different environments.

While I did indeed race an original Avante, my opinion is geared more towards the bashers as that is where most of these buggies are sold and used. You are talking about racing on prepared tracks which accounts for a tiny percentage of buggies sold. Your opinion is valid but not for the vast majority. As I feel most TC members bash their buggies rather than race, especially the older vintage ones, I feel an assessment should take into account the probable use.

I have always compared performance based on running both cars over identical conditions albiet rougher tracks than you would race on. It still provides an accurate measurement albiet at the rougher end of the scale.

When I give an assessment of something it is also in stock form unless otherwise stated. It is unfair to give people an impression that a vehicle is better than it actually is just because you've fitted aftermarket parts. True I have fitted many hop-ups to my buggies, especially my thundershots but they have been very well documented in both the forums and my showroom.

I've already said many times, on tarmac or very smooth tracks the Avante family will out perform the thundershot or manta ray however that is irrelevent to an argument over ruggedness. A thundershot or manta ray driven over that same equally smooth track will last even longer before breakage occurs.

My Avante2001 is still my favourite buggy of all the ones I've owned and that is why I run it often. Most of my runners are however thundershot family based as they are cheap and simple to fix. Anybody wanting to run a vintage Tamiya as a daily runner knows all too well the high cost and rarity of Avante family cars.

As you will see though fromt the pics above, I own all of these buggies and run them regularly. My opinions are based on direct comparison today not on memories from many years ago where you tend to suffer 'rose tinted spectacle' syndrome.

As to the original point of this topic, that of comparative value between a Dyna storm or Avante then it clearly depends on intended use. As I don't believe in having an R/C car that isn't used the Avante is worth considerably less than the DS which is capable, cheap to fix and has better parts availablity.

The avante really only has an inflated second hand value because so few people ran them that it retains an almost mythical status. That doesn't mean that is was any good. In fact it wasn't any good because other manufacturers produced far superior buggies at that time and Tamiya's main market of bashers couldn't afford such high prices or felt the lower priced buggies were better value. It may well be the best looking buggy that Tamiya ever produced but that is surely irrelevent to anybody wanting to run one.

[mud4fun]

quote:Things like that makes me wonder if you've actually run these cars

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LOL - There are many TC members who have seen me run these cars and I don't mind running them over rough ground or jumps etc. I'd love to run my Avante2001 more often but as it generally lasts only 2 minutes before something expensive breaks I prefer the t'shots.

I don't race any more and haven't for many years because there are no buggy tracks local to me since the touring cars dominate the club scene at the moment.

I've suffered no problems with gears softening, in fact I'm still running the same internals in my 9.6v t'shot and that has done maybe 20-30 hours use running with a dyna run super touring. My daughter is running the same internals on her gearboxes and they've been in there over a year. She runs it about an hour a week.

Manta Ray is indeed less robust than thundershot as far as I'm concerned and it is true, I don't run the manta ray much because it is no better than the t'shot in performance. However, I've had many TC members argue otherwise.

Why not read my reviews of thundershot, avante2001 and manta ray in the reviews section? I think they are pretty accurate and honest.

PS. Don't talk to me about that manta ray motor mount either, mine has broken 3 times this year! **** thing is rubbish design. Whj on earth Tamiya went from a metal mount on the t'shot to a plastic one on the MR I'll never know but annoying anyway. First thing you have to buy to run an MR is the hop-up alloy motor mount. At least the Avante family had metal mounts even if they were a bit fiddly.

I think your problem with the gearbox is due to the wafer thin plastic casing where the webs run over the motor. I melted my gearbox casing on the MR when running a dyna run super touring with too high a pinion. Never had any problem with the t'shots though. I think more of the motor is enclosed in the MR case which lets less cooling over the motor maybe? I always use a much smaller pinion than really necessary now on the MR to keep the motor cool and I use a heatsink too.

[TamiyaDan]

delete.

[mud4fun]

Hi TamiyaDan, are we talking about the same parts here? Here are pics of the parts I'm talking about:

I am not aware of any strengthened ones. I have checked out all my Avante family chassis, that is 3 vanquish, 2 Avante2001 plus half a dozen spare packs and all are identical. I have also already replaced maybe 6 or 7 sets in the last 6 months and all those were identical to these as far as I know. If these are the strengthened ones then they are no better than original. These last only a few minutes on bumpy ground.

When I said you contradicted yourself I was referring to you mentioning that you'd replaced them with the 'new improved' parts, implying that you were aware of the weakness of the original. As the whole point of this argument is to compare stock vehicles then any improved parts are irrelevent. There were also improved parts available for other buggies but we are not counting them in on a discussion regarding 'stock' reliability and ruggedness.

At the end of the day there is little point in prolonging this discussion as you are convinced that an Avante is more rugged than a Thundershot and my opinion is vice versa. All I know is that my original comments were made after running these cars in STOCK form side by side which is as fair as it can get really?

I haven't driven the Dyna storm myself but I have witnessed one being driven at very high speed over exactly the same bit of ground that trashed my Avante uprights.

[mjohnston39]

There were two versions of the Avante family uprights, the photo above shows the beefed up ones.

Mike.

[TamiyaDan]

delete.

[mjohnston39]

quote:the vanquish was also not advertised as a Racing car. it was touted as the budget way into R/C and it sure was the original kit sold for 88$. while an avante was around 209$ at the time

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The Vanquish sold for a little more than that when it was released, IIRC Tower was selling them for around 214$ and the Avante/Egress up around 300$+

Also we should remember that Japanese tracks at the time tended to be smoother than those in North America or Europe, hence the more limited suspension travel.

Mike.

[TamiyaDan]

delete.

[mud4fun]

Your living in the past mate, nobody races Avante or thundershot or any other vintage buggies now. We are not talking about racing. We are talking about bashing a car around the local park, car park etc.

It is totally irrelevent to be describing the performance of a car on a track 14+ years ago when pursuading people of the virtues of a car to run today. Fact is the Avante family are NOT suitable as runners, bashers or for anybody that needs a simple, easy to maintain car. The fact that you have given such impressive details on how difficult they are to setup to get them to perform is evidence enough that they are worthless as vintage runners for the vast majority of both this club and the rest of the general public. You have expressed in far better terms what I've been stating all along. Thank you! []

PS. I have 20 years experience as a fully qualified mechanical engineer plus 25 years experience of model engineering. If I'm incapable of getting one of these cars setup properly to traverse 100 yards of grass without breakage then god help the rest of joe public!

[mjohnston39]

quote:well then i got myself quite a deal

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Sounds like it, perhaps they were blowing them out, IIRC Tower was selling the Vanquish for 99$ in 91/92.

Mike.

[TamiyaDan]

delete.

[netsmithUK]

OK Everyone lets calm down a little here. Everyone is as bad as each other. You are all welcome to put your opinions about the models forward but lets try and keep cheap personal swipes at the posters out of it.

Personally I've read the thread and do feel the arguements keep changing and people are arguing different points and the goal posts keep changing. Maybe they should all be started as different threads with clearly started definitions of the the arguements are. As it is its going no-where fast. Everyone has their own experiences both back in the days and present day and no-one can tell them they didn't have those experiences. So its stalemate as far as i see it.

x says he had an avante at this time and it did certain things and performed in certain ways. y say he had one and it did other things. Sometimes thats the way it goes. Neither are wrong. What I do think is wrong is when people start putting opinions across as if they are FACT. This is a different thing. To be presented as FACT I thing these arguments need to be backed up with documented market research of thousands of tests not just a few peoples experiences. Personal experiences are just that personal epxerience and no-one can argue that they didn't happen. Likewise everyone is entitled to opinions, and opinons can't be can't be wrong - that said they may be different to your own opinions. Sometimes you just need to agree to differ.

I think in answer to TWMaster original question, if you want a fun runner you are not going to have any problem getting parts for then the Dynastorm is probably the better of the two (then again can't remember the last time i saw dyna bits on ebay [])

If he you were looking for the generally more collectable of the two, then the avante would be the best choice.

If you just wanted to swap Mike then back to my original post I would imagine you'd get a taker and it would be a better deal for them, probably $ wise anyway. And as TamiyaDan pointed out if you sold it on ebay you'd get enough for pretty much any more modern runner you wanted.

Chris

[DJTheo]

I think everyone has his point there, only there has a misperception when comparing both cars. Why:

quote:1) Nearly all Tamiya buggies sold are run as bashers NOT as race machines on carefully prepared surfaces. My comments about ruggedness are more inline with the majority of users than the minority of racers.

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No mate, an Avante was a ultra expensive high end race car, never meant to be bought as a kid basher, thats why I think it didn't even have the MSC inside. A Thundershot was a basher and to compare them both in a bashing environent is unfair, as the TS is superior there, as its also unfair to compare them in a racing environment where the Avante is superior.

quote:Your living in the past mate, nobody races Avante or thundershot or any other vintage buggies now. We are not talking about racing. We are talking about bashing a car around the local park, car park etc.

id="quote">id="quote">

I think mud4fun has his own, different from the majority idea about use of vintage cars. In my (and several others) opinion they are better for some gentle running for reliving the past. IMHO it doesn't make sense to bash vintage cars hard, as a) they are expensive, parts are hard to find c) modern cars are much more robust and fast. SRBs and 3speeds are also very fragile cars, but we still have alot of fun driving them like they were meant to, in a realistic environment or a nice sand beach etc...

quote:It is totally irrelevent to be describing the performance of a car on a track 14+ years ago when pursuading people of the virtues of a car to run today. Fact is the Avante family are NOT suitable as runners, bashers or for anybody that needs a simple, easy to maintain car. The fact that you have given such impressive details on how difficult they are to setup to get them to perform is evidence enough that they are worthless as vintage runners for the vast majority of both this club and the rest of the general public. You have expressed in far better terms what I've been stating all along. Thank you!

id="quote">id="quote">

Exactly, you say it![8D] Avante isn't a basher, its a historical piece of high end engineering, to carefully adjust and admire, while driving it with care, like also a 3 speed is. Thats also what makes their value so high, while the TS family cars low, as bashers you can find any modern RC car, which are also better. Don't get me wrong, I still like the TS family, but not so much because of their running ease(as modern cars are even better there, thats evolution) but because of their 90s Anime design [8D].

To conclude, I think the question was more easy then we think, TS is a better basher/every day runner and Avante a better racer car, it doesn't make sense to compare them, as it doesn't make sense to compare a robust but slower TL01 to a fast but problematic TB EVO03.

Cheers and peace []

[mjohnston39]

Well put DJTheo![^]

[Twmaster]

One point I noticed in this thread was mention of the Avante not coming with an MSC. Is this so?

[mjohnston39]

Yes, IIRC only the Vanquish came with an MSC. I don't think there was enough room to mount an MSC on the Avante. Also I seem to recall when the Avante was released Tamiya also released their reciever/ESC.[?]

Mike.

[Twmaster]

Thanks Mike. That answers my question and then some. This one has a Tekin 411 ESC in it. []

I am going to see if I have time this week to get busy cleaning the Avante up so I can sell it. If anybody has a silly high offer to make on the thing shoot me an email.