making a falcon competitive against moderns?

[drakos 0]

hi,

not new to the hobby or site but first post on this forum.

i recently aquired a falcon and was planning to make it a bit more competitive against the newer (stock) buggy's and entry traxxas models etc a the local off road track
so need some help on what to do with the suspension,engine and weight stuf?

-offcourse the first thing to do is change the dogbones
-was planning on some custom cf braces and front skitplate to stiffen up the chassis and possibly build a cf chassis. (not sure how much weight i need to lose) 
-suspension need to be changed with some modern dual rate shocks

still need to decide what engine i'm gonna run, got a sport tuned laying around somewhere but was thinking to go hotter.
how fast can i go without shattering the gearbox? and what brushed engine is best?

any other tips? do's and dont's?
what tires do i need to run?

 

will post some pic's as soon as i got delivered and update the progress

 

[iluvmud 812]

57 minutes ago, drakos said:

hi,

not new to the hobby or site but first post on this forum.

i recently aquired a falcon and was planning to make it a bit more competitive against the newer (stock) buggy's and entry traxxas models etc a the local off road track
so need some help on what to do with the suspension,engine and weight stuf?

-offcourse the first thing to do is change the dogbones
-was planning on some custom cf braces and front skitplate to stiffen up the chassis and possibly build a cf chassis. (not sure how much weight i need to lose) 
-suspension need to be changed with some modern dual rate shocks

still need to decide what engine i'm gonna run, got a sport tuned laying around somewhere but was thinking to go hotter.
how fast can i go without shattering the gearbox? and what brushed engine is best?

any other tips? do's and dont's?
what tires do i need to run?

 

will post some pic's as soon as i got delivered and update the progress

 

Dont get me wrong I love my falcon, but I'm not sure how well you can make it to stand up to today's racing. the tranny is a variation of the tranny in the CW01 so it can withstand a hotter motor just not so sure about the rest of the car as the front of the chassis is prone to being very fragile.

A good suggestion IMO would be to use a bearhawk chassis which is the same chassis but has a much improved front end in a sense of strength and suspension and improved rear suspension too , slap on a falcon body and call it a day.....

[drakos 0]

the reason i choose the falcon is that i Always wanted that car when i was young

wil look into the bear hawk suspension but i think that with some clever upgrades i can make the Original falcon front end much better.

i wanna show the youngsters that with some "period correct" homebrew upgrades i can give them a run for the money against there modern cars.
( i know it probably gonna cost more than a traxxas but don't tell them that  )

 

[Pintopower 1456]

7 minutes ago, drakos said:

the reason i choose the falcon is that i Always wanted that car when i was young

wil look into the bear hawk suspension but i think that with some clever upgrades i can make the Original falcon front end much better.

i wanna show the youngsters that with some "period correct" homebrew upgrades i can give them a run for the money against there modern cars.
( i know it probably gonna cost more than a traxxas but don't tell them that  )

 

I hear you on that man. I race my Hornet at the local track in the novice class. Never placed but never last. 

[iluvmud 812]

49 minutes ago, drakos said:

the reason i choose the falcon is that i Always wanted that car when i was young

wil look into the bear hawk suspension but i think that with some clever upgrades i can make the Original falcon front end much better.

i wanna show the youngsters that with some "period correct" homebrew upgrades i can give them a run for the money against there modern cars.
( i know it probably gonna cost more than a traxxas but don't tell them that  )

 

I hear you, I like racing these old things and certainly worth doing some home made upgrades to make it stronger, I know team CRP makes a front brace/bumper combo I had it and didnt like the way it looked and fit on my falcon so i sold it..... the brace. you can go that route but I think there are other suggestions on strengthening the front bulkhead another concern is the age of the plastic on these and the fact that there isnt a rere of it so spares are scarce. at least if you go the bearhawk route those parts are still easier to find.

37 minutes ago, Pintopower said:

I hear you on that man. I race my Hornet at the local track in the novice class. Never placed but never last. 

^Show off.........

[drakos 0]

@pintopower,  your car is exactly the reason why i started this project, and main ispiration.. amazing work 

As for the front end, was thinking of duplicating some parts from aluminum with the lathe.main concern with this is the weight.

The braces and skidplate will be made from cf sheet, and even playing with the idea of copying the tub in carbon fiber (never done anything like that but how hard can it be compaired with polyester molding? )

The biggest problems for me to solve are the suspension and geometry of chassis. just not that familiar with that stuff. 

[MadInventor 3884]

If you want to show that a vintage car can be competitive against modern buggies the Kyosho Ultima was released the same year as the falcon (1986), and would be a much better starting point . Lightweight, good suspension geometry, and a robust transmission.........

 

[iluvmud 812]

54 minutes ago, MadInventor said:

If you want to show that a vintage car can be competitive against modern buggies the Kyosho Ultima was released the same year as the falcon (1986), and would be a much better starting point . Lightweight, good suspension geometry, and a robust transmission.........

 

Get outta here with that anti-falcon talk!!!!  

[Dangerseeker 162]

kyosho cars might have been better engeneeringwise, but they never got the looks. kyosho cars = uncool cars

of course you dont win a race by being cool, but you go down with style 

[MadInventor 3884]

7 minutes ago, iluvmud said:

Get outta here with that anti-falcon talk!!!!  

Never owned one myself, but I thought it was know as the foul-can ?

 

[Dangerseeker 162]

@drakos maybe this link is of some interest:

 

 

[iluvmud 812]

6 minutes ago, MadInventor said:

Never owned one myself, but I thought it was know as the foul-can ?

 

It has its quirks but still has its place in Tamiya history  

[Backlash 481]

Just go and buy a re-release RC10 classic or worlds, and there will be no need for hop-ups to give them a run for their money...

[drakos 0]

starting with a other car is missing the point.
the falcon is nostalgia for me (or traumatic ,my dad never wanted to buy it for me  )
the other reason to start with a falcon is the the real vintage/accient look of it and strange rear suspension.. most younger drivers never seen one because it is never been rereleased.

just to start off,
what tires are best for dirt/shortcourse tracks? want to start with te most grippy tires i can find and then try to solve flipping over on tight corners with geomitry and suspension changes.
do i need to stick with the ribbed front tires or go spiked? (or spiked/ribbed?)
the rear problably i will stick with spikes, any brand/type tips? 

[MadInventor 3884]

If you want to stick with Tamiya, I think fox / wild one rear wheels will fit, and egress hybrid spikes grip really well. I would definitely ditch the original rear wheels and go with something with a larger diameter.

[drakos 0]

tamiya has got quite a hard compount to prevent stripping off the spikes on tarmac, proline or shumacher tends to be a lot softer

Was thinking of proline spiked rear and ribbed for the front? Or should is go for spiked fronts to?

Tire diameter at the rear depents on the motor and gearing. because off the limited gear options i possibly need to go bigger indeed to compensate

[Prescient 671]

The falcon wasn't really a competitive racer in its day so it definitely won't be now.

No need to mod it but just enjoy the nostalgia. 

Find comparable class to race in then it's just a case of experimenting with damper rate/tyre combos.

[Hudson 53]

I think there's a few people missing the point here, if Drakos has a nostalgic love for the Falcon and is spurred on by the challenge of trying to make it competitive(ish) today then why not, it may not be sensible and there may be other more suitable cars to start with, but if Drakos' car is a Falcon then it's a Falcon.  I adore the Falcon, it was my first car back in the day so I will be really interested to see how this one plays out.  Customisation/mods/hop ups isn't really my bag so I can't offer much help there but I really hope you achieve your goal.

 

[Prescient 671]

He said he didn't want to mod it though (certainly to the level it would need), unless I miss-read / miss-interpreted that. I got the impression he wanted it to remain falcon.

That leaves dampers and tyres and since tuning those are very much down to driver preference and racing surface, apologies if that part of my response seem rather short. To be honest there are not many other easy mods on this chassis even for camber/toe adjust. 

If you are racing in a stock comparrable vintage class then competitiveness will be down to driver skill. If you are up against modern race buggies then you need to fit equivalent tech.

[iluvmud 812]

Drakos how much are you willing to change?? I only ask cause the falcon uses odd read hubs abd are prone to breaking so put a hex in it and get some newer Tamiya wheels/tires. The rear end is also known for spitting out axles (happens in the sonic fighter and striker too- same rear setup) so might want to find a way to cure that as well. If you decide to no use the bear hawk front and like I suggested then the next thing is to lower the car with shorter shocks or adding spacers to the pistons inside the shock bodies to lower ride height for better handeling.... coincidentally going this route my reduce the issue with the dog bones popping out as well. Post pics as you progress.

[drakos 0]

thanks for the reply's..

except for the people who are telling me that it won't work or is a bad plan. it is not the question if it is a good idea.  
but asking advise on how how i can accomplish it.

i've got modern cars that are much more competive,faster.stronger etc. but those are half the fun to drive (and i'm more of a builder than a driver anyway).

so i'm not going to defend my plans anymore, i chosen this car out of nostalgia and because it is a chalenge and because it isn't a Obvious choise.
i know it never gonna win any races but that is not the point of this build. i want to see how far i can take this litlle car to give modern cars a run for there money.

as for the changes i'm willing to make.. as much as needed without losing the charm and look of a vintage car.  (pintopower's hornet is a good example of how far i want to take it if needed) 
i told i'm thinking of making a new cf tub  (or go to cf dual deck chassis like the mantaray)
i've got the equipment and knowledge to remake and redesign every part on the car,  only thing that i'm not to familair with is the effect on changes to the geomitry.
for example; if i need to build new rear arm to improve strenght or give it a degree more camber i can and will do it,   

 

so now the questions,
what kind of front tires do i need for dry dirt to lightmuddy tracks with tight corners? ribbed or spiked? and is there an better choise than proline?

and the thorp drive cups, do they take newer tamiya dogbones or are they a different size? or do i need to go with df02 drive cups? (wil make custom lenght universals for the outside)  

@iluvmud; thanks for the heads up on the adapters, didn't know that one. will look into newer style hexes or remakeing the adapters.

 

 

[Prescient 671]

Out of interest, have you run/raced it yet?

If so how did it hold up and where is it lagging?

Dry dirt tracks then pin spike tyres or possibly blocks. Are you uk/eu or us based?

For your chassis. Use 3mm cf sheet for a lower deck and 2mm for upper deck brace.

Then build up the sides of the lower deck using the resin cured cf sheeting to create the bathtub although these won't be fully structual, rather for aesthetic. Otherwise you will need a full vacuum bag and oven rig to make a suitably strong all in one bathtub cf falcon chassis at home. I built a cf falcon bathtub (blitzer beetle) chassis c20 years ago but I had access to full workshop facilities at the time. 

To make adjustable turnbuckles for the front you can either buy 3mm threaded rod and tube to encase it or, I think either the dt03 or tt02b adjustable turnbuckles can be made to fit.

 

[drakos 0]

Thanks for the tips, haven't driven it, car is still in transit.

Reason why i start with questions about the tires is that the car hasn't driven in 10 years so the tires are dry rotten. 

I've read somewhere that the dt02 cups fit the diff but are a bit shorter? so if the torps accept normal dogbones that is a better starting point.                                   for the universals i'll take a random set and weld it to lenght followed by a spin on the lathe. 

[markbt73 5316]

Generally, the best way to choose tires for a track is to go see what everyone else is running and copy them. You should be able to use modern 2.2" tires if you use DT02 wheels in the front, and HPI Super RS4 wheels in the rear (after changing rear hubs from the four-point design to standard 12mm hex). Most other rear wheels have too little offset and will rub on the trailing arms.

And about those trailing arms: the Falcon's weak point in the rear is not the dogbones themselves, but that at full downward travel, they can pop out of the drive cups. The plastic dogbones themselves are plenty strong for any amout of power that you can control. So what you want to do is limit the suspension down-travel to keep the dogbones in place. About 1/4" of rubber tubing inside each rear shock does the trick, if I recall.

But then, you also need the damping on the rear suspension as light as possible, so it will react to bumps instead of knocking the rear end off-course. Use the pistons with 4 huge holes in them on the rear shocks if you're using the stock CVA's, or really light oil in other shocks.

Now, however, you have a rear end that is short-travel, light damping, and reactive enough to keep some traction under your carefully-chosen tires, but you're going to put that setup, which is ideal for bumpy, loose tracks with few jumps, on a modern track, which is as smooth and hard as a billiard table, but with crazy motocross-style jumps everywhere.

The problem isn't really so much that the cars have changed; it's that the tracks have. And for the worse, in my opinion. I like real off-road tracks, with loose dirt and bumpy sections in the corners and maybe one big jump, but many smaller ones. On a track like that, a Falcon can hold its own against some surprising competition. It was the first car I ever put on a track back in the 80s, and I did OK. But on modern hard-clay (or carpet, ugh) "off road" tracks, where speeds are ridiculously high and landings from three or four feet in the air happen several times a lap, I'm afraid it just won't stay together no matter what you do.

We might all be wrong, and I really hope you prove us wrong. I really hope you try, and I can't wait to see what you come up with. But I fear for the Falcon's well-being, and I hope you're not setting yourself up for disappointment.

(Edit: though I must admit, you have me looking at a new-built Futaba FX10 sitting on my shelf and thinking all kinds of crazy thoughts...)

[Mokei Kagaku 2706]

 

5 hours ago, drakos said:

thanks for the reply's..

except for the people who are telling me that it won't work or is a bad plan. it is not the question if it is a good idea.  
but asking advise on how how i can accomplish it.
......

so i'm not going to defend my plans anymore, i chosen this car out of nostalgia and because it is a chalenge and because it isn't a Obvious choise.
i know it never gonna win any races but that is not the point of this build. i want to see how far i can take this litlle car to give modern cars a run for there money.

as for the changes i'm willing to make.. as much as needed without losing the charm and look of a vintage car.  (like pintopower's hornet) 
i told i'm thinking of making a new cf tub  (or go to cf dual deck chassis like the mantaray)
i've got the equipment and knowledge to remake and redesign every part on the car,  only thing that i'm not to familair with is the effect on changes to the geomitry.
for example; if i need to build new rear arm to improve strenght or give it a degree more camber i can and will do it,   

.....

so now the questions,
what kind of front tires do i need for dry dirt to lightmuddy tracks with tight corners? ribbed or spiked? and is there an better choise than proline?

......

I think there are a couple of paradoxes in this and the whole discussion.

It's perfectly alright to see "the impossible" as a challenge and hardly anyone here (me neither) is against that. However, if I have understood you correctly, you have never run a Falcon and thus never experienced the handling or the technical issues. Countless others on here have a lot of experience and knowledge about the Falcon and know very well what parts of it that can't possible stay unchanged/ must be replaced if you want acceptable durability and handling. The Falcon was even mediocre (I'm NICE now! ) in this in terms of handling and durability 3 decades ago. 

"Giving modern cars a run for their money" is of course a subjective statement.  Independently of the cars themselves, the technical and driving skills of the people running them will also massively influence what it takes of a Falcon and its driver.  Some here are very ambitious on your behalf and thus rather pessimistic about the Falcon's potential for achieving your goal, and since you've just started posting here on the forum, it's completely impossible for us to know how ambitious your plans actually are. The "pessimists" among us may simply be a lot more ambitious on your behalf than you are yourself. Many here are or have been very active in organized racing and will have that as the reference when reading your statement, while for others, "racing" against the local children and their modern entry level models on the street, will be the "threshold".  None of these two extremes are more or less worth than the other as a hobby/pastime, but needless to say, which of these extremes or anything between these two extremes you will be up against will have major influence on how tough the challenge will be. 

Reading your different posts, it's a bit hard to see how much of the "soul" and typical characteristics of the Falcon you are prepared to let go in favour of handling and durability. Your approach seems to have changed a bit as the thread has developed, which is of course OK, but makes it a bit more difficult to comment. You need to consider that before simply dismissing those who have pointed out that it's a "bad plan" or similar.

If my impression that you don't have any hands on experience with the Falcon is correct, you have obviously read and/or heard quite a bit about the Falcon and have acknowledged that both the front and rear suspension, drivetrain and front bulkhead have massive durability and/or reliability issues and that the suspension is completely outdated and was anything but state of the art at the time the Falcon was released either.  That's great and a good starting point! But, with that in mind, I don't understand why you focus on things like replacing the tub with a cf tub or dual deck chassis. Admittedly, the tub has got some issues too, but considering all the other shortcomings, is together with the body just about the only parts I personally would focus the least on improving or replacing. Probably not at all. Also, you focus a lot on tires. On one hand I think that is very appropriate because tire technology has made incredible advances over the last 30 years. On the other hand, the focus on tires seems rather irrelevant in this early phase as there are other shortcomings you need to address before the admittedly very important change to vastly superior modern tires will make any sense.

Personally, I would first address the suspension issues and the weak front bulkhead, and unless you are prepared to replace all the parts with the virtually direct bolt-on Bearhawk/Blitzer parts (or adapting some other existing parts or making your own from scratch), it will very likely be your biggest challenge.  As Markbt73 has pointed out, with the rear suspension you face the dilemma of several durability, reliability and handling issues and unless you are prepared to replace or modified it all beyond recognition, you will be left with an unacceptable compromise if you expect reasonable durability  and reliability, and simultaneously handling good enough for tackling just about even the weakest competition. Especially if you intend to run on a modern buggy track.

I wish you the best of luck with your project and would love to see you succeed. However, I fear that once you've made your first real experience with the handling and durability issues, you will understand why so many here for the best of reasons think your goal is so ambitious. Or even virtually unachievable if the model in the end is supposed to resemble a Falcon more than for instance the Neo Falcon does.