4x4 Racing Buggies

[Max Roczen 0]

Hi all, 

Back in the day I remember Tamiya always having a flagship 4x4 buggy. Over the years which has been the top Tamiya 4x4? I've started the list below, is anyone able to complete and correct it? It's just out of interest as it all gets a bit unclear after Top Force! 

Hot Shot 1985

Egress 1987 

Avante 1988

Top-Force 1991

Top-Force Evolution

TRF503 2014

TT-02B MS 2015

DB01RRR

[Jonathon Gillham 4607]

I think this is a pretty difficult topic because Tamiya haven't really been into offroad racing for a while.  The Manta Ray and Top Force did ok I think back when they came out, as did the Astute with modifications in 2wd, but then things quietened down.  The DB01 was a great buggy by all accounts, and of course there are the TRF501 / 511 / 503 but they seem to be something of an orphan these days.  Tamiya isn't well supported in New Zealand which is probably why I haven't seen any racing down here or even for sale.  The TT02MS shouldn't be on the list, its a hopped up version of an entry level buggy.

Really the current ones would be the DB01RRR or TRF503, but they will be behind the competition these days.

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

4 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

I think this is a pretty difficult topic because Tamiya haven't really been into offroad racing for a while.  The Manta Ray and Top Force did ok I think back when they came out, as did the Astute with modifications in 2wd, but then things quietened down.  The DB01 was a great buggy by all accounts, and of course there are the TRF501 / 511 / 503 but they seem to be something of an orphan these days.  Tamiya isn't well supported in New Zealand which is probably why I haven't seen any racing down here or even for sale.  The TT02MS shouldn't be on the list, its a hopped up version of an entry level buggy.

Really the current ones would be the DB01RRR or TRF503, but they will be behind the competition these days.

Out of interest what makes the 503 so out of date? I'm always interested in the technical and design side of the cars. What makes say, a Lazer so much better? 

Where did the TRF502 fit? Was that a one off shaft drive option?

[Jonathon Gillham 4607]

9 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

Out of interest what makes the 503 so out of date? I'm always interested in the technical and design side of the cars. What makes say, a Lazer so much better? 

Where did the TRF502 fit? Was that a one off shaft drive option?

I don't know the TRF range very well so not sure about the 502, I just missed it from my list. The TRF503 will probably be competitive still in the right hands but I haven't ever seen one, not running nor for sale. I see TRF touring cars in stock in local online stores here but never seen a buggy. Its like Tamiya don't really care about buggies anymore.

The age doesn't seem to matter too much, the HB Racing D413 (released in 2013) won the nationals here this year, so assuming the TRF503 was good when released it will still be good now.

The Lazer is good because it has a couple of motor positions  (front and rear) and can use shorty or saddle packs so has a lot of options to setup for different tracks. I runs mine in rear motor with shorty for a clay track but would swap to front motor for carpet. I don't know if the TRF503 can do this, if it can't then it will be limited on one type of track or the other.

But otherwise, the chassis will be good, efficient drivetrain, adjustable suspension etc so should be great.

[Max Roczen 0]

Ah that all makes sense now. There was clear evolution from the Egress to the Avante and on to the Top-Force but then it fissiled out. Seems ownership of the TRF buggies went to Tamiya USA.

So if I want to get a 4x4 racing buggy it may not be a Tamiya.

[Jonathon Gillham 4607]

3 hours ago, Max Roczen said:

Ah that all makes sense now. There was clear evolution from the Egress to the Avante and on to the Top-Force but then it fissiled out. Seems ownership of the TRF buggies went to Tamiya USA.

So if I want to get a 4x4 racing buggy it may not be a Tamiya.

There is a lot of choice out there and depending on what you're doing you could stick with Tamiya. If you are racing against friends then a DB01R could be fine. If you are racing at a club check out what people at the club run. If they don't run tamiya you can always do your research on the TRF buggies and see if they are suitable. TamiyaUSA are selling the TRF201 and TRf211 cheap at the moment if you would consider 2wd.

[Saito2 6686]

I'm lost after the Top Force Evo myself but the beginning of the list would probably go:

1. Hot Shot- simply because it was Tamiya's first 4wd and actually did well on sloppy tracks and was better than the Kyosho Progress IMHO

2. Super Shot- Tamiya's all-out, fully hopped-up Hot Shot, not an Optima killer, but a beautiful, aggressive buggy

3. Bigwig- the 10th anniversary car with special body, but also carrying Technigold power and set up for 8.4v out of the box.

4. Thundershot-wasn't sure about adding this one. For a brief time before the Avante release, it was Tamiya's top 4wd kit. A big improvement over the first gen 4wds in every technical way while still sharing some of their design language. Tamiya actually got this car into the hands of racers and it did reasonably well.

5. Avante

6. Egress

7. Top Force-not quite at the sophistication level material-wise as the Egress but a simpler, cleaner overall design

8. Top Force Evo- as the Egress was the full tilt Avante, so was the Evo the full tilt version of the standard Top Force

[qatmix 794]

The TRF503 is still a fast car. It won a class at teh IFMAR worlds this year apparently. Although I cant remember which class exactly it won (As im not really into off road as much). But Terry told me. 

[Wooders28 4723]

I don't know what to say about the racing , flagship, 4wd models as the last one I remember was the Avante, which I'd still love to own. I don't remember seeing a Top Force at any tracks, it was all Schumacher, Kyosho and Yokomo's! 

I've always put Tamiya in the , fun, RC car bracket. (Not a bad thing!) 

[Saito2 6686]

I think the Avante was the last Tamiya 4wd to make a splash at the tracks until the modern era. The Hot Shot cars had their time but were eclipsed when the Optima series hit. While I find the Thundershot series under rated (they really are good buggies, in many ways), I don't think they grabbed the average racer's attention. By that time, the field was thick with Optima Mids, Cats and C4 Yokomos. The Avante on the other hand was such a break from traditional Tamiya offerings that it commanded attention. Of course, while the designs concepts were neat, they didn't translate into a successful racing buggy. After the Avante, I feel, at least in my area, Tamiya faded from the 4WD scene, despite the fact the DF01/Top Force was a good buggy.

[i_am_scarecrow 913]

How does the DF03 Dark Impact compare to some of the above mentioned cars? 

[Wooders28 4723]

31 minutes ago, i_am_scarecrow said:

How does the DF03 Dark Impact compare to some of the above mentioned cars? 

I like the Dark Impact, it's a good car, (one is my avitar!) but not a racer out of the box.

The gearbox and diffs need mods to take any, racing power motors, the chassis is plastic, shocks are ok, but lack adjustment etc.

By the time you've bought a slipper, gearbox / diff mods , carbon chassis, shocks etc, you'd be cheaper buying an off the shelf racer like a 2wd Schumacher KF2se (£200) or a 4wd K2 (£340) 

BUT If you want to try your hand at racing and own a dark impact, it will get around a track, and more importantly, be fun 🖒

[i_am_scarecrow 913]

I have just bought one, I'm waiting for it to arrive. 

I race on road at my local club but in the summer I'll be organising a Tamiya class for our off road track. I know Schumacher make brilliant cars but I'm a die hard Tamiya man so nothing else will do. Out of the box it looks pretty good, oil shocks and bearings included in the kit. The idea behind our Tamiya classes is to keep the costs down so this is kind of the entry level into off road racing for us. Motors will be limited to something like the 15t Saturn and the Hobbywing 1060 quicrun esc, I'm guessing the gearbox should handle that ok? What gearbox/diff mods are there for it?

 

[Wooders28 4723]

2 hours ago, i_am_scarecrow said:

I'm guessing the gearbox should handle that ok? What gearbox/diff mods are there for it?

When i got mine in the late 2000's parts where getting harder to get, now near impossible, but seemingly the aluminium gear on the main shaft wears and takes out the rest of the gears, i found out a hardened heli pinion worked, so when I got the slipper set i did that mod (I've done a thread on here). I used 3racing diff joints with Schumacher tungsten diff balls, 3racing swing shafts (still available,I like these as if you pop a turnbuckle, you don't loose the drive shaft 😁), 3racing damper set (still available, but listed on eBay for the dt03, but I'm running Schumacher big bore shocks on mine atm). I'd recommend shock towers, (I went for aluminium, but I think you can get carbon too), as the stock plastic ones flex a fair bit. I've got the uprated turnbuckles, but tbh, I don't think they made that much difference as you get enough adjustment with the stock ones, just a bit more of a faff.

I've not seen alot of these parts for a while, but I've not been looking either.

[i_am_scarecrow 913]

Great stuff,that will help quite a bit! Many thanks.

[Wooders28 4723]

1 hour ago, i_am_scarecrow said:

Great stuff,that will help quite a bit! Many thanks.

The hardened gear thread , not sure how much abuse the stock gear will take, a went straight to 5700kv brushless with 3s lipo! 

 

[i_am_scarecrow 913]

Did you use the standard pinion gear?

[Wooders28 4723]

8 hours ago, i_am_scarecrow said:

Did you use the standard pinion gear?

It's running a standard spur and pinion, I'd already got most of the pinion and spur options in 05mod , so didn't see any reason to swap to 48dp.

[Yalson 514]

On 10/19/2017 at 10:02 AM, Max Roczen said:

Hi all, 

Back in the day I remember Tamiya always having a flagship 4x4 buggy. Over the years which has been the top Tamiya 4x4? I've started the list below, is anyone able to complete and correct it? It's just out of interest as it all gets a bit unclear after Top Force! 

Hot Shot 1985

Egress 1987 

Avante 1988

Top-Force 1991

Top-Force Evolution

TRF503 2014

TT-02B MS 2015

DB01RRR

I think the Egress and the Avante should be the other way round. The Egress was definitely a development of the Avante. It definitely wouldn't have been the other way round, as the Egress was a pukka racing car, although unconventional by then-contemporary racing thinking due to being shaft drive, while the Avante was sluggish, overweight and generally something of a dog.

By the time the Thundershot series came out, racing tech had moved on so much in most markets that they were no longer seen as being in any way competitive. They weren't bad cars by any means, but they were old tech compared to the dual-decked, belt-driven, ball-diffed machines being made by Schumacher, Kyosho etc. There was one guy at my local club who was a huge Tamiya loyalist who managed to make his Thundershot reasonably competitive, but he only managed it by replacing so much of the car with carbon fibre after-market and specially made parts that he could have bought a Cat AND a Mid with the money he spent on it. And even then it still wasn't as good.

Another aspect which prevented that generation of Tamiya 4WDs from being considered proper racing cars was that BiTD the Boomerang and Thundershot series used to have a reputation for shredding gearboxes if you upped the motor power by too much. Part of this may have been down to the cars generally being raced by inexperienced youngsters who did not maintain them to the highest standards and could not afford stronger after-market parts. But there was also a general understanding that while you could happily run a hot 13 x 2 modified in a Cat straight out of the box, you did so with a standard Tamiya shaft drive 4WD at your peril, as their plastic innards simply could not take the forces involved*. I remember Boomerangs and Super Sabres being particularly partial to this. The sound of a Boomerang jerking back to its owner having loudly mashed its own innards, with motor screaming due to being largely unhindered by any form of friction from the drivetrain, is one I have heard often and will never forget.

It surprises me when people on here talk about running Boomerangs and other Tamiya tub-chassis cars with wild brushless motor set-ups, but I imagine some of that comes from keeping them well maintained and only running them occasionally in non-race environments.

*Being a long-time Mid owner, I am aware of its unfortunate tendency to destroy idler gears for no apparent reason at all. This wasn't necessarily down to the power of the motor being used, however. I have destroyed idler gears in my Mids when using hot modifieds, but also when running a perfectly standard 27T stock motor. I think it has more to do with the amount of wear on the gears inside the box and how much heavy braking and hard acceleration it is being asked to do. It may also have something to do with grip levels, as although it used to happen quite regularly off-road, I never remember stripping one when racing on tarmac.

[highflyer 73]

Love the cars on the list...  But to tune the monsters the diffs play a big factor. I figured out using half the gear diff fluid (don't fill it all the way up) in a Db01/501x it will perform well like the touring cars.

[Max Roczen 0]

So I think their 4x4 racing buggies went: 

Avante 1987

Egress 1988 

Top-Force 1991

Top-Force Evolution

TRF 411X

TRF501

TRF511

TRF502

TRF503

Gave up with off-road racing and turned to on-road instead. 

[Max Roczen 0]

I'm going to buy a 1/10th 4x4 off-road buggy. I've concluded (rightly or wrongly) that the best Tamiya (for dirt racing) is the TRF 502X. 

Does anyone know how much slower this buggy would be compared to a 2018 Team Associated B64? Is it night and day? I really want a Tamiya but the best buggy I can get is from 2010 (the 502X)!  

[ThunderDragonCy 7886]

35 minutes ago, Max Roczen said:

I'm going to buy a 1/10th 4x4 off-road buggy. I've concluded (rightly or wrongly) that the best Tamiya (for dirt racing) is the TRF 502X. 

Does anyone know how much slower this buggy would be compared to a 2018 Team Associated B64? Is it night and day? I really want a Tamiya but the best buggy I can get is from 2010 (the 502X)!  

If you're on Facebook it might be as well to ask on the TRF Off Road group on there. There are still people doing really well with 511s mostly, but a couple have 502 as well. 

[Max Roczen 0]

Cool, found the trf off road group on fb.

[Jonathon Gillham 4607]

15 hours ago, Max Roczen said:

I'm going to buy a 1/10th 4x4 off-road buggy. I've concluded (rightly or wrongly) that the best Tamiya (for dirt racing) is the TRF 502X. 

Does anyone know how much slower this buggy would be compared to a 2018 Team Associated B64? Is it night and day? I really want a Tamiya but the best buggy I can get is from 2010 (the 502X)!  

I would expect them to be ok for club racing still unless you're running it well put of the range it was designed for. High grip is common now and back in 2010 I don't think grip levels were as high. I run on a low grip outdoor dirt track with a Kyosho Lazer ZX6 in rear motor and an Ultima RB6.6 in mid motor standup and my driving is the limiting factor. A guy at my club runs an RC10 Worlds rere (late 80s design) and he reckons a modern RC10 B6.1D would give him about 2 secs a lap. He sits mid field in 17.5T blinky class, but has been racing 20 odd years so knows what hes doing.

If you put the Tamiya's on that really high grip carpet you would probably be well off the pace, but on a dirt track or astro you would probably be able to keep up. The older buggy may cost you a second or so a lap but if you can't lap consistently then its not going to make the slightest difference to you.

My main worry would be the cost - those kits are crazy expensive now. Parts availability should be fine, but I don't know about durability. In 17.5T blinky I have only ever had one breakage in 2 seasons and thats for both cars. People told me the Lazer is fragile but thats not my experience, although somehting like the Tekno or Hot Bodies are even more bulletproof (which is why my 5yo has an HB D413...)

The B64 would be the 'better' choice but half the fun is running what you want, so why not give the TRF a go?