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ALEXKYRIAK

DB01 Durga: thoughts?

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Hi all, in my general wonderings and readings of all things Tamiya, I have recently been intrigued and slightly enamoured by the DB01 Durga. It looks quite an interesting proposition from a body shell and frame/stance point of view; as a chassis design and powertrain it looks like it might be a little long in the tooth...? How does it stack up in the scheme of things against say a  TT-02B, DF-03, TRF 201/211 models? It does look a little bit gorgeous in my humble opinion. As usual the awesome Blackholesun.fr website is an amazing source of knowledge, this describes an R version of the DB01, and then of course a DB02 (Leonis, nasty body design IMHO) came along.

What experiences, if any, have people here had with this car?

Thanks all :)

 

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Definitely on my wish list. Not many around these days. From what I have heard from others it is leagues above the other models you have mentioned with the exception of the trf201 which is actually 2wd anyway so not really comparable.

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It's brilliant, if you can find one and spares support. 

Suffers from the discontinued Tamiya kit premium now.

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Rcjaz claim to have it and the RR in stock. Not a bad price for it either when you compare what a TT02B costs.

https://www.rcjaz.co.nz/tamiya-offroad-car-kit-db01-chassis-c-4472_82_1744_4131.html

Heard great things but never seen one in the flesh. A new mid-range buggy to replace the DB01 is the top of my wishlist from tamiya though.

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It says something about the DB-01 that instead of bringing out more versions of the DB-02 or introducing a DB-03, Tamiya have so far instead elected to add more "R"s to the DB-01. The last version had 3 if I remember correctly, and I wouldn't be surprised if a DB-01RRRR made an appearance at some point.

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Alex asked a good question I wanted to know myself.  

I am building DN01 Zahhak.  Though Zahhak is 2WD (an inexpensive version of TRF201), the suspension and ball differential look comparable (if not identical) to DB01 Durga and DB02 Leonis.  

If you want high-end stuff, go with Durga or Leonis (though ugly, it's designed by a Toyota designer).  DF03 would be at mid-point, and TT02B is at entry level.  

The plastic in Zahhak is something new to me.  It's slightly flexible, but hard at the same time.  If you carve it with a knife, it feels grainy like cutting through an apple, only much harder.  I am wondering if the plastic contains carbon particles.  The steel ball races for the differential sit on plastic parts, and they seem to be sufficiently hard perhaps due to the special plastic.  I've dulled 2 sharp blades, and I've only finished the front suspension.  A screw would go in through a hole, and when it comes out the other end, it is hot, and the thread looks worn, due to the hardness of the plastic.  I would assume Durga and Leonis are made from the same kind of hardened plastic.  

TT02 chassis was originally on-road chassis if I understand correctly.  TT02B is quite similar to DF02 Gravel Hound.  My Gravel Hound came with steel dog bones, and adjustable turnbuckles for the steering rod, unlike TT02B's all-plastic approach.  DF02's drive shaft is buried in the centerline of the chassis, instead of above like TT02.  The shaft housing would give the floor pan some extra rigidity.  Aside from that, I don't quite understand why Tamiya bothered to make 2 different shaft-driven chassis that are so similar.  I'd say they are both entry-level 4WD buggies. 

58568_1.thumb.jpg.5c5616567275cce33b04ec85dd941d0c.jpg

 

In both cars, the suspension hinge pins are U shaped pins going into both right and left side at the same time.  Though not smoothest, these are very simple and rugged.  

  5a177837c57e7_tt02bhingepin.jpg.ac678fe7cb6587d747498c2197f1368e.jpg

 

Zahhak, Durga and Leonis have individual hinge pins, and the pins are capped with balls at both ends to reduce friction, and those balls are held by the body and bumpers.  Quite complicated and time-consuming when compared to TT02B or DF02's U-sahft above.

5a177bbebd5cf_zahhakhingepins.jpg.f2107b42777c383effded34ccbc36bae.jpg

 

DF03 is in between.  It is a step up from DF02 or TT02B.  Single pins held by E-clips on both ends or grub screws in the middle. 

5a17793328d4d_AvanteII.jpg.0375b2891221f40abcc55e609a6c1fac.jpg

My only concern with DF03 is the fact that the motor is so well hidden, it may not get enough air to cool. 

Steering is also complex in Durga, Leonis, and Zahhak.  They have 2 bearings + 4 bushings for steering linkages.  Non-standard 730 bearings are supplied, but rather standard 850 bearings are not supplied (but you can buy them cheaply elsewhere).  Zahhak uses two 730 bearings and four very small 630 bushings, but fortunately, I had those tiny 630 bearings.  The steering is silky smooth.  DF03 compromises, so it comes with four 850 bushings and 2 screws (ugh!).  TT02 and DF02 come without any bearings or bushings at all--just screws that are pinning the pivot points.  I would say My DF02 Gravel Hound's steering linkage ends up producing about 3mm (1/8") of slop at the very front of the tires.  For a basher, that's fine.  

 

On the downside, I've heard of some people complaining about DB01 Durga's belt tension mechanism hard to access.  You'd have to take apart front and rear gearboxes and rotate the shoulders holding the differentials.  I suppose the belts do need some adjustment once in a while.    

On DB02 Leonis, I am a bit suspicious of the center gearbox.  It looks like a differential, but it's not.  It's just two sets of bevel gears.  You can see the gaps separating the two sets.  Instead of one big gear contacting two bevel gears going forward and backward, Tamiya installed another gear.  This way, front and rear gearboxes can be identical, without any need to reverse one gearbox. 

58507-Tamiya-DB02-TOMS-2.jpg.3d23a5dddba698a96a03415755a41f2a.jpg

When bevel gears meet, something has to push the two gears together, preferably at the tip of both bevel gears.  If I remember correctly, Juggernaut 2's bevel gears have either 850 or 1150 bearing at the tip that's held firmly.  But as you can see, there is no room for that here, so bevels are held only at their necks.  My Juggernaut 1's bevel gears failed immediately upon driving because the gearboxes didn't hold them at the tip of the bevel gears.  Even though 8 bolts are clamping it down in Leonis, I would still be worried (yet curious as to how these would hold up).  These are 1:1 gears.  IMHO, these should be like 1.2 :1 to reduce the stress.  Because of the extra metal gears, DB02 produces more gear noises.  I rather like hearing it (on youtube) because it sounds somewhat like a jet turbine, but one might find it annoying.  If so, belt-driven DB01 should be a slightly muted choice.  

Since I have DF02 Gravel Hound, I don't find TT02B interesting.  That leaves DB01 Durga, DB02 Leonis and DF03 Dark Impact/Avante II.  I haven't had any belt-driven car, so Durga looks interesting, but I also like the clunky gear factor of Leonis too.  At the same time, DF03 Avante Mk.II looks alright to me.  

5a176842136dd_AventeII.jpg.ef37befe1034bdb542fa217a3a0858ce.jpg

 

 

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The DB01 RRR is an excellent example of the DB01 Chassis, I would recommend it if you can find one, the belts on the DB01 won't need regular maintenance check the tension every time you inspect/work on the diff. 

they are difficult to get body shells for, I have had to look at getting TBG shells as a replacement ( RRR doesn't come with a Body ) 

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Alex, I've built DT01, DT02, DF02, DF03, DB01, and DB01R buggies so far.  I also have a TRF201 (42167) and DB01RR (84369) NIB.

DB01 positives from my point of view:

  • Better supplied equipment - plastic materials (glass-reinforced nylon), machine screws, ball bearings, turnbuckle adjusters, oil dampers, 48p spur
  • Quiet and smooth drivetrain
  • More precise suspension and steering
  • Suspension is more supple/compliant -- great for street bashing!
  • Large variety of hopups available
  • Design lineage traceable to the TRF501x

DB01 negatives/gotchas from my point of view:

  • Some people build the ball diffs incorrectly; they miss the twist arrow that tells them to flip the diff before installing the bolt and nut holding it together.
  • The plastic used for the inner suspension blocks and damper stays can be very hard; tapping the holes with a thread-forming tap is recommended to avoid stripping the screws during assembly.
  • The front wheel hexes are unique to Tamiya and can crack if someone overtightens the front nylon locking nut.  Tamiya does offer a slightly thicker hex as a tuning option, which can also fix this weakness.  Replacing the nylon lock nuts with serrated wheel nuts is a good idea too.
  • The steering bellcranks are a little sloppy with the kit-supplied brass bushings.  Replace these with four 850 ball bearings to see some improvement.

The DB01R has higher-spec equipment:  TRF buggy dampers, better adjusters/turnbuckles, reinforced drive belts, some carbon-reinforced (instead of glass-reinforced) plastics, and more.  Still in the spirit of the TRF501x/TRF511x

The DB01RR has even higher-spec equipment:  Big bore dampers, LiPo-compatible chassis tube, gear diffs instead of ball diffs, etc.  Still in the spirit of the TRF501x/TRF511x.

The DB01RRR borrows some elements from the TRF503; different gear diffs, different belts, etc.  I didn't buy a RRR because it would break some compatibility with all the other DB01/R/RR kits and parts I have.

The DT/DF kits use ABS plastics, self-tapping screws, bushings (not bearings, unless its the DF03).  The suspensions and steering tend to be sloppier.  Ride height on DF02 and TT02B is pretty low compared to other chassis.  The drivetrains are louder/less refined.

I could say more but it's pretty late here, and I'm heading off to bed...

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Just my 2 cents.... I had 2 db01 at one point a baldr and a durga. Fantastic car very capable and very fast with brushless, only ever broke suspension arms on them (was using reinforced ones that don t flex and snap on impact) still have fond memories of them they were great fun and very good at jumps. However pinion change/belt change and diff maintenance were horrible, the tamiya machine screws are no good and strip the plasric of the chassis and all maintenance is time consuming and overly complicated. 

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5 hours ago, speedy_w_beans said:

Alex, I've built DT01, DT02, DF02, DF03, DB01, and DB01R buggies so far.  I also have a TRF201 (42167) and DB01RR (84369) NIB.

DB01 positives from my point of view:

  • Better supplied equipment - plastic materials (glass-reinforced nylon), machine screws, ball bearings, turnbuckle adjusters, oil dampers, 48p spur
  • Quiet and smooth drivetrain
  • More precise suspension and steering
  • Suspension is more supple/compliant -- great for street bashing!
  • Large variety of hopups available
  • Design lineage traceable to the TRF501x

DB01 negatives/gotchas from my point of view:

  • Some people build the ball diffs incorrectly; they miss the twist arrow that tells them to flip the diff before installing the bolt and nut holding it together.
  • The plastic used for the inner suspension blocks and damper stays can be very hard; tapping the holes with a thread-forming tap is recommended to avoid stripping the screws during assembly.
  • The front wheel hexes are unique to Tamiya and can crack if someone overtightens the front nylon locking nut.  Tamiya does offer a slightly thicker hex as a tuning option, which can also fix this weakness.  Replacing the nylon lock nuts with serrated wheel nuts is a good idea too.
  • The steering bellcranks are a little sloppy with the kit-supplied brass bushings.  Replace these with four 850 ball bearings to see some improvement.

The DB01R has higher-spec equipment:  TRF buggy dampers, better adjusters/turnbuckles, reinforced drive belts, some carbon-reinforced (instead of glass-reinforced) plastics, and more.  Still in the spirit of the TRF501x/TRF511x

The DB01RR has even higher-spec equipment:  Big bore dampers, LiPo-compatible chassis tube, gear diffs instead of ball diffs, etc.  Still in the spirit of the TRF501x/TRF511x.

The DB01RRR borrows some elements from the TRF503; different gear diffs, different belts, etc.  I didn't buy a RRR because it would break some compatibility with all the other DB01/R/RR kits and parts I have.

The DT/DF kits use ABS plastics, self-tapping screws, bushings (not bearings, unless its the DF03).  The suspensions and steering tend to be sloppier.  Ride height on DF02 and TT02B is pretty low compared to other chassis.  The drivetrains are louder/less refined.

I could say more but it's pretty late here, and I'm heading off to bed...

Very well put Paul ;)

 

Having bought a used DB-01 Durga and a DB-01R I would say they are great buggies, 10 years out of date for racing but the -R was very capable at club racer level.  The -RR and -RRR were expensive upgrades that Tamiya released to try to give people something to compete with once the chassis was being outshone by competition. 

I sold my Durga on, having rebuilt it with a lot of new parts and upgrades - I still have the DB-01R and its still a fantastic buggy, very robust and whilst quite technical to work on compared to the DT/DF/TT-02 types its as enjoyable to build/maintain as it is to run.

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Lads, thank you all so much for such in depth and extensive comments and reviews, very much appreciated, and very informative also. (What a brilliant forum this is.)

I am considering taking the plunge with this chassis / car, it looks a really enticing and interesting build. I am interested in the belt drive system, never run one of these, and also the plastics, all my cars so far are the normal basic plastic, not carbon (or other) reinforced plastics. The big bore aeration shocks are also a plus if going RR.  The basic DB01 Durga body is really seductive. Having watched many YouTube videos the car looks reallly well balanced and stable  

 As usual it comes down to a ) get the ‘basic’ DB01 Durga and then succumb to HUAD* or b ) go for an R or an RR and freak at the initial expenditure but comfort myself in the knowledge that if I’d gone for option  a ) I’d probably have ended spending the same amount of dosh anyway due to *Hop Up Addiction Disorder...!

i prefer the basic Durga black wheels and the Durga bodyshell (hard to find but Kamtec do a replica apparently....), so I guess these would be additions if going for an R or RR. 

Hmm, a bit to consider...

thanks guys :)

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21 hours ago, ALEXKYRIAK said:

*Hop Up Addiction Disorder...!

Ah, that made me remember your post.  ...Sorry, I've only been an occasional visitor until now...  You have the *white* TT02B fully hopped up with all the blue aluminum.  How could I forget those white chassis (along with Granddad Stinky's). 

I do understand your affliction of HUAD.  I'd say you should go with the basic DB01 and go with HUAD.  If it costs the same, it's more fun that way.  You get the sensation that you are "ditching the lesser parts and getting the improved parts."  A house built for you the best way, or A house you improve to be the best?  I'd choose the latter.  Having said that, you should look into the manuals, to see what you'd want to feed your Hop up addiction.  RRR, for example, seems to come with strange 3mm thick bearings that are hard to replace, if lost.  I believe things like that is what Percymon was referring to, when he mentioned the compatibility issues. 

Whatever you choose, I'll be looking forward to your build post.  I liked your neat TT02B build photos.  

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Thanks Juggular :P Yes the HUAD takes many forms. Sometimes it's worth the "house improved to be the best" mentality (love the metaphor by the way), and sometimes it's simply a matter of comparing the cost of a basic kit which you will probably hop up in a few specific areas, versus the same base kit that comes with additional hop up parts (ie, the MS versions of cars such as the TT02-B MS, or the R or RR versions of cars as in the DB01 car in question on this thread, etc)

  I did a bit of man maths and for various reasons I went for an RR version of the DB01, which is now in the post. Silly, I suspect, but it's done now :blink:. I appreciate the maintenance and availability of parts issue, this might worry me a bit in the future. What I will say about HUAD, it's not simply about getting all hop-ups, its about sourcing those hop ups that are genuine improvements, and ignoring the silly or detrimental ones - aluminium suspension arms for example.

I hear the Durga body shell is perhaps a bit too tight to cover and fit over the on-board kit, and that the Baldre car / kit whilst more generous with space for electronic kit, is nowhere near as good looking as the Durga shell. I certainly prefer the Durga shell to the Baldre shell. Any opinions on the Baldre shell vs the base Durga shell?

I think I prefer the Durga shell miles more.... thanks all.

 

Alex

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Since RR or RRR parts may be expensive, I would have chosen RR myself.  (RRR is too expensive for my budget, if I'm honest).   I'll be counting days to see your post on DB01RR.  Talking about silly hop-ups, I've seen non-rotating gear axle made in shiny blue aluminum (in the gearbox).  It may wear out faster than steel, but I guess one could save about half a gram or something.  As for the shell, I hated Bigwig with a passion, now I think it looks good enough, so I've learned to keep my mouth shut.  Just go with what you like.  If Durga shell is unavailable, I wonder if one of TRF201 body might be more palpable than Baldre? The rear end seems to be a tad longer than Durga, (but I have absolutely no idea if you can make it fit or not.  If it doesn't, forgive me in advance).   

header_42167.jpg.0d9b6ab5f1566fcfb9d28b4f24c29075.jpg

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Congrats on buying a DB01RR; I think you'll really like the kit.

One recommendation:  Order yourself a 54061 DB01 Double Slipper and incorporate it in your build from the start.  While the DB01RR does include the standard slipper clutch hopup, some people have reported damaging center pulleys when running gear diffs.  Basically, if you have a DB01 with ball diffs, the ball diffs slip just enough that they don't transfer a lot of shock to the belts/center pulleys when landing jumps.  If you have a DB01 with gear diffs, then there's no "give" or "slip" in the diffs themselves, so when landing jumps all the shock of the landing is transferred to the belts and center pulleys.  The solution in this case is to upgrade to the double slipper; this allows both halves of the drivetrain to work independently.  Shocks or jolts to either end of the drivetrain are not transferred to the other end.

Having used both Durga and Baldre body shells, I can verify the Durga shell leaves less room underneath it for the motor and ESC.  The shell basically rides on top of the motor; it's that close.  The Baldre shell does leave more room and in theory is the better performer on track, but like you I much prefer the Durga because it looks lower/wider/sleeker.

A few build tips:

  • You may want to use some Associated Green Slime on the gear diff O-rings and gaskets, as well as the damper O-rings.
  • Gradually tighten the gear diff screws in a cross pattern.
  • If the rear wing rests on the rear damper stay, consider trimming it back so there is some clearance.  When the DB01s were still fresh on the scene, some people broke rear damper stays during crashes because the rear wing acted like a giant lever directly connected to it.  Trimming the wing to provide some clearance allows the wing to flex more in a crash.
  • Replace the single slipper with the double slipper for the reason mentioned above.
  • The kit gives you both 17T and 23T 48p pinions.  What sort of motor do you plan to use?  I found a 19T pinion worked pretty well for a 4200kV sensored brushless system.
  • For all of the universal/CVD shafts, there's a lot of value in grinding ~3 mm wide flats in each of the cross pins.  People have had the cross pins slide out of the CVDs even after torquing down the grub screws quite hard and using thread lock.  Grinding the flats with a rotary tool will guarantee the pins won't fall out, even if the screws loosen a little.
  • One thing that came up on the older DB01R -- it was necessary to add an extra O-ring or two inside the rear dampers so the suspension didn't droop as much.  This guaranteed the rear universals wouldn't pop out of the diff drive cups.  I'm not sure if this will still be necessary for the RR, since it comes with big bore dampers.  If you assemble the shocks, attach them to the rear, and find the dogbone ends of the universals are a little too close to the end of the cups, you might consider opening up the dampers and adding an O-ring or two under the pistons to limit droop.
  • The rear wheels install on the axle stubs easily enough, but be extra careful installing the front wheels to the front hexes.  The manual mentions being sure to line up the hex before tightening the nylock nut.  You'll notice the wheel "pop" over the hex once moderate nut pressure is applied.  If the nut starts to get tight and the wheel hasn't popped onto the hex, there's a chance it isn't aligned correctly.
  • There isn't any room under the Durga body for heatsinks or fans; you may need to trim the shell a little bit to promote more air flow.

Enjoy!

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RRR have different hex on front, if i remember correctly, but they fit "speedline buggy wheels" from DE Racing (TLR22.4 front, kyosho RB6 rear), lot of hopup as big bore aeration damper, alu hex, gear diffs, metal parts... the price is justified.

 

DB01_RRR_0156.jpg

 

Durga body is so cool, even team azarashi, tateego body could fit.

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Hi guys. @Juggular and @Jonathon Gillham, yes I will be planning a build thread on this very special car. It's quickly jumped to the top of my queue of kits. I love doing the build threads, it's half the fun of putting it together, even if it adds another hour or two onto the build obsessing on that perfect photo of a shock/damper to shock mount detail... OCD alert or what...! I absolutely love the engineering and detailing of the designs. 

Doing a thread is slightly daunting on a kit like this, perhaps, as it's a little more complicated than the average kit, I don't want to get it wrong 'in public'... Plus this will be my first belt driven. Bring it on.

@speedy_w_beans, thanks for the excellent tips and advice there. I looked into the double slipper upgrade, man it's pricey...! At least, in the US on Tamiyausa it's dirt cheap - but I can't order it to the UK for some reason. Haven't thought about which motor as of yet, will need to look into that and do some research. Am a little torn between which shell to go for, the Durga is amazing and the Baldre is a little pedestrian. I see Kamtec do a Durga replica shell for cheap as chips as far as bodies go, like 7 quid , so might plump for that and experiment with it to achieve a balance with the electronics fitting and get a handle on overheating. Juggular, yeah I wondered what other shells might fit. @mastino thanks for the advice, nice car.

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So while the DB01RR is winging its way over to the UK, a question or two. 

1. What motor / ESC combos do people run with this? I was thinking of a brushless 13.5 or perhaps a bit quicker, say 9.5. TBLE02s will work with the 13.5 but what’s a good ESC for a faster motor? Am not going to be racing on a track yet. 

2. I did a bad thing and looked to see what hop ups are available for DB01RR and up. Quite a few it turns out.... But one that seems to be a good one is a rear hex conversion to run hexes on the rear. Do you concur?

3. I have a Durga bodyshell also on the way. People have mentioned cutting holes in it to promote cooling to alleviate heat build up. Is there any specific place that is preferred to create the hole (or holes) on this shell? 

Thanks all :)

 

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I would buy something better than a TBLE02S for this. It should be programmable with a low motor turn limit. The TBLE02S just doesn't seem to perform that well compared to others and is limited. What are the racing classes? Here its 17.5T blinky, 8.5T blinky (indoors) or mod which is open. I would get an ESC to cover all of them and go with the 8.5T motor which should cover mod and indoor.

I like the Speed Pasdion Reventon Pro 1.1, I have a couple and find them really good, a big step up from Trackstar.  People here really rate the SkyRC Toro120 as well. Anything from Team Orion, Tekin etc will be great too.

One benefit of Speed Passion motors is the connectors, its easy to change motor if you decide to swap between stock and mod for example.

What does the DB01 run on the rear if not hex? The hex conversion sounds sensible to me...

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Thanks Jonathon for recommending the Speed Passion Reventon Pro 1.1. Quite pricey though. Tekin also. Lots of 'out of stock' here in the UK.  Are there cheaper alternatives with similar performance?

DB01RR runs a pin type on the rear, hex on the fronts. I don't understand why this would be. Rear hex part is Tamiya 54669 Buggy Aluminium Hex Hubs.

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I got mine cheap from RCMart but checked and they have sold out. I think it was USD$139 for the combo - ESC motor and program card. A lot of money still compared to what I had spent previously but I'm very happy with the purchase.

The Trackstar Turbo 80a is a great ESC for the price but limited to 10.5T, also factor in a program card. It could be a good option though on a budget, this with a 13.5T and boost and turbo and lipo made my TT02B mental. The Trackstar Gen II 120a looks to be the SkyRC Toro 120a in a different colour so should be good but is close to the Speed Passion price anyway.

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Thanks mate, wherever I look it seems most items are out of stock or shadow stock. It’s a bit odd! Are hobbywing XERUN combos any good?

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I've never used Hobbywing but they must be the most popular gear at my onroad club so must be pretty good. I know a guy who runs awesomatix (really expensive chassis) and Higher servos and Hobbywing ESC and motor and he is happy with them. There are a lot of clones out there too and people usually only copy good stuff right?

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Ok well I have gone for a Hobbywing XR10 Pro ESC Combo With XERUN V10 8.5T Motor

http://www.cmldistribution.co.uk/product/HW38020219/hobbywing-xerun-xr10-pro-esc-xerun-v10-8-5t-motor-combo

 

Battery wise was thinking of something like this: Orion Carbon Pro Ultra 7.4V 5800 110C LW Tubes (270g) ORI14087

https://www.modelsport.co.uk/orion-carbon-pro-5800mah-7-4v-lipo-battery-110c/rc-car-products/403579

Just need to check it’s dimensions to see if it’ll fit the DB01RR

Quite a few batteries have a dual C number, ie 60/110, which I assume means normal and ‘burst’ rate. Other batteries like the Orion above only have one number. Why is that? I think elsewhere on this forum you recommended a minimum of 40-60C for anything racy. 

 

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