Cheap off road rally car?

[Mokei Kagaku]

2 hours ago, TurnipJF said:

The MF-01X is a M-size chassis, shorter and narrower than a standard touring size chassis such as the TT-01/TT-02/TB-01/XV-01. Shells that fit it will be too small for a touring chassis and touring size shells will be too big for the MF-01X.

Principally, yes, but touring car width is easily possible by using TL01 suspension arms, TL01 driveshafts and generic suitable length tierods and upper arms. Wheelbase can be varied in quite small increments by combining the different spacers included (short, medium, long). And the TL01 suspension arms being a twopiece design, wheelbase can be varied with approximately -5/+5mm in tiny increments by placing spacers/washers between the two halves. Up to aroun d 255mm wheelbase, the TL01 propshaft can be used (cut to length and crossdrilled for the 2x10mm Pins). Longer than that, and a longer 5mm shaft has to be sourced.

That said, for a touring car size rally car, there are of course more suitable chassises than the MF-01X, but the MF-01X is a very customizable design.

I quickly made a table to visualize how wheelbase can be changed just by combining chassis spacers (I may have overlooked some combinations). Unlike the M03 and M04 chassis spacers, the MF-01X chassis spacers aren't particularly rigid and the fit between chassis and spacers is surprising poor for being such a modern design, so there is a bit of flexing and slop, but then again, does that in reality really matter much?

[TurnipJF]

All of the above is true, but if one wants a touring car sized MF-01X, I'd think one might as well get a TL-01. Apart from motor position, their layouts and abilities are very similar.

[Mokei Kagaku]

3 minutes ago, TurnipJF said:

All of the above is true, but if one wants a touring car sized MF-01X, I'd think one might as well get a TL-01. Apart from motor position, their layouts and abilities are very similar.

Exactly, that's also why I wrote; "That said, for a touring car size rally car, there are of course more suitable chassises than the MF-01X, but the MF-01X is a very customizable design."

However, without cutting the chassis, the shortest possible wheelbase with the TL-01 chassis is approximately 245mm (with spacers between the suspension arm halves.). So, instead of cutting a TL-01 chassis, I opted for a MF-01X with TL-01 suspension arms (etc.) when I replaced the TA03F-S chassis for the Corolla WRC and Peugeot 206 WRC bodies. Primarily because I prefer to combine parts rather than permanently modifying parts to get the dimensions I want. That's where the "Lego-ness" of the MF-01X comes in so handy.

[Juls1]

TL01LA is a better rally chassis than MF01X if not for any other reason than it is 257mm. However it's also wider, can have more travel etc.

Whats wrong with the TL01LA is it's vintage and will most likely cost you more than a XV01 to setup as the LA variation is rare, and requires buying all the parts separately to make a conversion.

the XV01 is day and night in terms of handling and precision compared to the TL or TT or even DF03RA chassis arrangements. Having owned a large number of tamiya chassis, 

I can say the TT01/02 is the last chassis that comes to mind when we talk about rally conversion capability, lots of people have done one, because lots of people owned this cheap chassis, 

and tamiya released a number of rally shells on it. The way the plastic arms just pivot in the plastic chassis for a start isn't really ideal when the going gets dirty, along with the pivot ball suspension.. argh. 

If your needing alot more travel, then you'll be grinding whatever chassis you buy to let the arms down. And if you go too far it's going to look plain and simply stupid and handle like crap.

I found these tyres help quite a bit on top of the other mods, as they are just slightly bigger than a tamiya rally block, but much grippier on firm/dusty surfaces and don't wear so quickly. 

They also look a little more realistic than tamiya rally blocks.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LY8019-1-10-Scale-RC-On-Road-Car-Rubber-Tread-Rally-Tyre-Tire-Soft-x-4/332516090423?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

 

 

 

[TurnipJF]

The TL-01LA has some good points, but to my mind this makes it a superior touring car, not necessarily a superior rally car.

 

The lightweight grey chassis mouldings may be lighter than the stock black ones, but for rally strength is a more pressing concern than weight, so I'd argue that the plain black ones are better.

 

This is especially the case if you can get one with the more recent mouldings which feature a cut-out below the steering servo. This allows debris to escape that might otherwise jam the steering. (You can of course cut a hole in an older set of mouldings, but the pre-moulded hole looks neater.)

 

The fancy TRF-style arms are nice, but you can get even better ground clearance with the stock ones and a set of M-05RA/MF-01X hubs, which drop the axle relative to the suspension arms. The arms themselves are thus higher off the ground than the LA ones would be.

 

Finally, rally is not a gentle discipline. You want some thing that is cheap and easy to fix. The TL-01LA is getting quite rare and special now, whereas standard TL-01s (and the parts to fix them) are still plentiful and cheap.

 

[Juls1]

I agree the lightweight grey tl01 chassis is junk. The LA’s I had never came with those chassis, it was aftermarket only I thought.

I had considered using the m chassis RA uprights in stock tl01 arms but back when I used to race TL01’s in rally those parts didn’t exist. 

The biggest issue I had was the front tyres spraying crap all over the motor endbell. But with basically sealed brushless motors available now that’s much less of a issue.

The simple fact is the xv01 is tamiyas rally car right now. It uses a number of original parts along with parts from the 4wd race buggy DB01 and the TA06 touring car. Both professional level race kits. 

There is lots of xv-01 parts, lots of people using them. It makes little sense to deliberately buy a touring specific chassis to heavily modify it for rally use. 

Juls

[TurnipJF]

While I'd agree that the XV-01 is a Tamiya's premier rally car, I wouldn't say it is their only one. The TT-02 with its ability to be built with extra ground clearance using the stock parts is clearly designed for more than just smooth surface use, and the MF-01X is similarly equipped with dual ride height hubs.

 

Also, given the expense and relative rarity of XV-01 kits and parts, I'd say there is a very good reason to buy a touring chassis and mod it for rally use. It is cheaper!

 

Furthermore, if you do a good job of it, it need not be any less capable than a XV-01. Plus for those who like to tinker, the challenge of modding is far more satisfying than simply building a kit already designed for the purpose.

[Juggular]

Get 2 or 3.  Getting just one is very unfair to yourself.  As TurnipJF had said, I would recommend finding a shell that looks good to you.  

Then see whether or not you like the chassis.  Tamiya sometimes has different chassis for one shell.  For example, Lancia Delta comes with both XV-01 and TT-02 (there might be one more chassis).  Then study the difference. 

I would factor in the weight-distribution to your realism. 

XV-01 has the motor in front.  It drives like a car with engine block weighing down the nose.  I have DF02 with a mid-ship motor.  So there is no need for me to get TT02 which is basically the same.  But XV-01's front motor is what draws me to it.  I also want TL01B simply because of huge arm travel.  But you said you want a realistic rally car.  Huge arm travel might not give you the scale realism you want.  If you want a VW rally bug, MF-01X might be realistic with the motor mounted behind the rear wheels.  

Tamiya instructs you to set the shocks very stiff.  You would have to set them extra soft, if you want to achieve realism in the shocks.  

I found this clip of a bunch of XV-01 rally cars.  They turn quite differently from mid-ship cars.  The center of gravity is right behind the front wheels. So these cars pivot on front wheels, and they fish-tail a bit like the real cars in my opinion.  

 

[Badcrumble]

55 minutes ago, Juggular said:

Get 2 or 3.  Getting just one is very unfair to yourself. 

Ha! I’d managed to damp down my enthusiasm for an MF-01X until this thread came along.

That video was great and reflects what I’d seen / heard about the XV-01 - want to get building mine now.

To return to the OP’s request for a cheap rally car - I wouldn’t say that the XV-01 was cheap. Not to start with and not if you start going for hop-ups like slipper clutches, suspension mounts, etc.

I reckon the MF-01X would bring a lot of smiles for the outlay - if a less challenging build.

 

 

[Juggular]

I like the Martini paint scheme! 

Interesting how rear-mounted motor makes it fishtail less, but front bounces a bit.  

Similar videos linkes show the same track, but this MF01X ahs a Suzuki racing paint scheme.  I like that also.  

EDIT: It just occurred to me, why does it have the motor in the rear for Jimny?  

 

[Jonathon Gillham]

39 minutes ago, Badcrumble said:

To return to the OP’s request for a cheap rally car - I wouldn’t say that the XV-01 was cheap. Not to start with and not if you start going for hop-ups like slipper clutches, suspension mounts, etc.

 

This is a bit off topic (but maybe still relevant) but I find the definition of cheap to be very subjective.  The number of TT builds on here which would cost more than a TA07 or a DB01 and still be less capable amazes me.  I get that its fun to upgrade and it can also easily get out of hand - $10 here, $20 there and suddenly the kit price has been spent again.  The TA07 is roughly US$200 but comes with bearings, universals all around, fluid filled diffs, adjustable spur/pinion, turnbuckles (and they're blue!), blue ball connectors (bling is important).  Oh, and TRF alloy shocks.  I've probably missed more.  So you have to add a body, tyres, motor and ESC which all come with the TT02 but nothing else needs upgrading.  Or start with a TT02 and add all those bits, except the body and tyres, the shocks alone almost bring it up to the TA07 kit price.  (granted the TA07 isn't for everyone as it has the flat chassis which doesn't provide protection like the tub from the TT02, but swap TB03/4 in place of the TA07 if you like, I just don't know what they come with stock but its bound to be at least oil shocks!)

My cars stay pretty stock, other than the necessary upgrades such as bearings and I have DF02 diffs for when I want to run brushless in my TT02B, but rather than buy a TT02 and a lot of hopups, I am much more likely to buy a TA07. 

Even when racing, I keep my cars reasonably stock and have only upgraded weak parts to save breaking (steering bits in the Ultima RB6.6) or when its obvious (F103 front end on a TRF102 for extra width, arguably a downgrade but the extra width trumps TRF parts) or when the stock part is so bad (glued together pulley on the TA07 springs to mind when the alloy part was US$5.45 to replace it).  On my Lazer ZX6 I just carry a bunch of spare shock towers rather than upgrade as that just sends the problem further down the chassis.

Now to my point, I don't know about rally cars, but to me the XV01 seems the better bet than a TT02 with a lot of upgrades/modificatoins to make it a rally car.  Same as a DB01 is a much better option than a TT02B with upgrades.  It would surely be cheaper in the long run and more satisfying to drive with a kit thats designed for the purpose?  Unless the purpose is the fun of building/modifying, then this rant (how did it turn out that way?) is irrelevant (actually a rant on the internet is irrelevant anyway right? if only POTUS knew!)

[Juls1]

On another note, the tt02s model with reversable arms is a poor rally car as the front c hub hits the suspension arm if you want to drop below level arms. The c hub is small and flimsy so grinding it out of the way will most likely just cause it to fail. I don’t know why they made that part like that as it flex’s forward during suspension compression ruining your caster settings. 

Juls

 

 

 

[Re-Bugged]

Probably not cheap but check this out, lights, opening doors, and working windscreen wipers!! 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ayFDH_6OT6U

[78Triumph]

I'm a huge proponent of the XV-01, specifically the long damper spec.  Drives amazing, and in my experience brought a whole new element of realistic handling rc cars.  Lots of hop ups available too.  My MF-01X is still un-assembled so I can't compare the two side by side, but I have a feeling they're not even in the same ballpark.  The XV-01 is a pretty high level kit, the MF-01X doesn't even come with oil dampers.  By the time you by the basic upgrades like bearings and oil shocks you're just about at the XV-01 price level, you'd just need to pick a body.

I'm not sure what you're after though, with scale rally driving you won't be plowing over tree roots and rocks the size of 1/10 logs and boulders.

[TurnipJF]

True. It may also depend on what you mean by rally.  Are we talking WRC or Dakar?