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Saul Commer

Brushless motor in CAT 2000?

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Please bear with me as I have only recently got back into RC and I have never owned any Lipos, Brushless motors or modern cars!

I have my CAT 2000 / 95 project that I am working on and I see that Modelsport do ESC / motor combos. The only motor I have that I could use is an 11 triple.

If I just buy a brushless combo instead, what would be a good fast motor to get, that still handles well and that would also not destroy my CATs transmission?

This looks tempting but the motor rating means nothing to me :-( https://www.modelsport.co.uk/absima-brushless-combo-set-thrust-bl-eco-1-10/rc-car-products/404844

 

Thanks.

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If the car can handle an 11T triple then it can probably handle anything brushless that is designed for a 1/10 buggy.  I add that 1/10 caveat as you could put a 1/8 setup in it and it could rip it apart as they have more torque and run 4S lipos.

To give you an idea the Silvercan classes now use 21.5T (onroad) or 17.5T (offroad) and these are "blinky" classes.  Blinky means there is no timing or boost from the ESC, as that makes a huge difference.  Superstock which was the 23T motors now use 13.5T, and once again are blinky.  Mod classes (which your motor would have fallen into) are open and allow ESC programming to make them even faster.  Most of the racers I know run 5.5T - 8.5T in 4wd buggies (the 8.5T is because thats what the indoor buggies run, so 1 car 2 options to race, dedicated 4wd mod cars would run 5.5T-6.5T)

It also gets confusing when you start referring to KV rating rather than the turn rating.  The race classes use the turn rating, but reality is the KV rating is what matters as that is KV x volts = rpm.  My 21.5T Speed Passion motors are 2000kv, my 17.5T Trackstar motors are 2240kv (I think) and the 13.5T trackstar is 3040kv.  A 5.5T is around 5500kv

That motor you linked to shows as 3421kv, which would put it around a 10.5T motor.  I doubt that combo would be a great performer based on the specs of the ESC, its rated to 50a.  The top level ESC are 120a - 200a for 10th scale.  However, if its just a backyard basher it will be great fun.  I run the TBLE-02S (kit Tamiya ESC) with a 13.5T / 3040kv motor in a Boomerang and that goes really well just on NiMH.

The other thing to consider is the gearing.  The mod motor you have probably ran a really small pinion.  Brushless run much higher gearing than brushed motors as they produce more torque.  So the 13.5T in my Boomerang runs the 17T (biggest) pinion but if I put a Superstock BZ in I would probably drop to the 13T pinion and get a similar result.

If you go down the route of programmable ESC then you really need to invest in some decent lipos as well, as you will quickly reach a point with NiMH where they just can't deliver any more juice so no matter what you do the speed won't change.

There are a lot of options.

Hobbyking sell the Trackstar range and personally I've found them to be great bang for buck.  A combo with an 80a ESC and 10.5T motor is around USD$75, and they also offer higher spec ESC than that too.  I race these in 17.5T blinky class and have found them really good.  I also use their servos in my onroad racers and so far so good.  Trackstar would be my go to backyard basher brand, and selectively for racers as well when on a budget.

SkyRC has a great reputation, I don't use them but know a lot who do and they are really happy with them.  Places like Banggood sell them and they are pretty good value for money.  The Toro 120 is what most racers who use them here run.

There is really cheap like the TSky (kind of a Hobbywing knock off) which you can get from Banggood for about NZD$25 (would be about 12quid I guess) and a few people say they are great.  Personally I haven't tried them and its people on the internet saying they are good, so take that with a grain of salt.

Hobbywing sell a lot of great products and cover the range from the entry level Quicrun series to their pro stuff.  I doubt you would be disappointed with Hobbywing

Speed Passion are great but not sure if the company will be around much longer.  I use the Reventon Pro 1.1 and really rate them.  They can be had cheap from places like RCMart, but beware cheap is relative to other high end ESC, so still about USD$90, but they were twice that when they first came out.  That also comes with the program box which usually cost from $15 - $50 extra if they don't come with one.  I got a faulty Speed Passion motor from RCMart and they honoured the warranty too, so I think they would do the same with the ESC if you had a problem.

Maclan is the one I would buy if budget allowed (I always seem to need 2 of things, so while buying 1 combo is ok at around USD$250, I can't stretch to that when buying 2).  Check out Amainhobbies for those, they seem to have the best prices and the service is great.

Finally, many people on here have bought cheap ebay stuff and it works, so thats another option.

So really, its just a case of what you want to do with it, what your budget is and theres a combo available to suit.

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Excellent post from Jonathon. Not really much to add here.
Maybe one more thing considering the strengh of your "old" Cat: 
An 11 triple brushed is definately a beasty thing, but compared to the brutality of a modern hot Brushless like a 5.5T, there is still a big gap. 

I would not go higher than an 9.5 brushless for your Cat, otherwise you will destroy your belts or melt your diffs within' a couple of runs. Also keep in mind that the plastic parts of a 25 Year old car start being brittle and it would be a pity to break it in halves after a big hit, so maybe a little less is more here...

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22 hours ago, Saul Commer said:

Please bear with me as I have only recently got back into RC and I have never owned any Lipos, Brushless motors or modern cars!

I have my CAT 2000 / 95 project that I am working on and I see that Modelsport do ESC / motor combos. The only motor I have that I could use is an 11 triple.

If I just buy a brushless combo instead, what would be a good fast motor to get, that still handles well and that would also not destroy my CATs transmission?

This looks tempting but the motor rating means nothing to me :-( https://www.modelsport.co.uk/absima-brushless-combo-set-thrust-bl-eco-1-10/rc-car-products/404844

 

Thanks.

I’d say go for an 8.5T brushless for 2S LiPo’s or if you think you’ll try 3S out go for a 10.5T. 

I too am an old RC racer. And I’ve found an 8.5T to give comparable performance to an 11-13 turn brushed race motor on 2S LiPo’s. 

You could go quicker. But probably isn’t needed. 3S on a 10.5T should be faster than the 8.5T/ 2S and a bit slower on 2S. 

I’d personally go for a sensored setup. It’ll be a bit more money but they are much smoother and nicer to drive. More akin to quality brushed setups. Sensorless brushless setups are a bit on/off in their power delivery. 

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I recently asked a similar question on facebook with regards to a procat.

The rere XLS transmission upgrade will fit the procat, which means i could run a 6.5t, but on stock parts, I'm going to look for a sensored 10.5t set up.

(Cant believe i'm going to write this but..... )

Vintage stuff wasnt designed for brushless speeds, so even if the drivetrain holds up with a 5.5t, it won't go around any corner at modern car speeds and if you're going to try, bring a dust pan and brush! 🤔😂

Also, turns / kv seem to be more of a guide to the speed, my sensored reedy 6.5T running some boost and turbo is loads quicker and punchier than my, now expired, sensorless 3.5T 5700kv castle motor ever was.

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48 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

Also, turns / kv seem to be more of a guide to the speed, my sensored reedy 6.5T running some boost and turbo is loads quicker and punchier than my, now expired, sensorless 3.5T 5700kv castle motor ever was.

I second that...
Especially cheap Motor/ ESC combos from hong kong shops for 100$ or less are ridiculous compared to high end stuff. I used to buy several speedpassion combos in the past, like 6.5Turns plus "120amps" reventon esc's. These sets are okay for playing around on a parklot but not more. No punch, constantly cut off's due to overheating etc was more a pain than a joy.
I endet in buying a "true" ESC plus 6.5T from Team Orion, costs 4 times the money but it's rocket solid and usable for serious racing. And my 13.5T Orion Stock Class Motor easily outruns my 8,5Turn speedpassion.
In the end, it's the whole setup that matters, like good batts, correct gear ratio, powerfull ESC with "true" amps and Motors with a good heat dissipation. Buy cheap buy twice, that's what i learned:lol:

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1 hour ago, Wooders28 said:

(Cant believe i'm going to write this but..... )

Vintage stuff wasnt designed for brushless speeds, so even if the drivetrain holds up with a 5.5t, it won't go around any corner at modern car speeds and if you're going to try, bring a dust pan and brush! 🤔😂

A Cat2000 is probably pretty stout though. A mate used to have one and I ran a Fireblade 2000. Running a 10 turn brushed motor in one was no probs at all. 

And I couldn’t disagree more about the handling. We aren’t talking Grasshopper or Hornet here. The Cat2000 has adjustable double wishbone suspension, good adjustable geometry and alloy oil filled shocks. On a nice strong and rigid chassis. :)

 

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1 hour ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

And I couldn’t disagree more about the handling. We aren’t talking Grasshopper or Hornet here

My optima mid custom (with gold shocks, special? 🤔 ), even with the same brushless set up, would have no chance of staying with my K1 and my Ultima, even with its 6.5t, wouldnt stay with my KF2 ,as everything has moved so far forward (not just the motors 😂) 

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Not driven an Optima so can’t comment. But isn’t the Optima from 1985 and one of the first of its kind? And more importantly 15 years older than a Cat 2000. 

 

Schumacher-Cat-2000-SE-Chassis.jpg

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1 hour ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

Not driven an Optima so can’t comment. But isn’t the Optima from 1985 and one of the first of its kind? And more importantly 15 years older than a Cat 2000. 

 

Schumacher-Cat-2000-SE-Chassis.jpg

Optima mid custom was one of the later optima's circa '89 

Schumacher cat 2000 was first released '93.

Had to check in wiki, but i rememeber it being at the time i was stopping racing as it seemed to be going on road.

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13 hours ago, scoobybooster said:

I second that...
Especially cheap Motor/ ESC combos from hong kong shops for 100$ or less are ridiculous compared to high end stuff. I used to buy several speedpassion combos in the past, like 6.5Turns plus "120amps" reventon esc's. These sets are okay for playing around on a parklot but not more. No punch, constantly cut off's due to overheating etc was more a pain than a joy.
I endet in buying a "true" ESC plus 6.5T from Team Orion, costs 4 times the money but it's rocket solid and usable for serious racing. And my 13.5T Orion Stock Class Motor easily outruns my 8,5Turn speedpassion.
In the end, it's the whole setup that matters, like good batts, correct gear ratio, powerfull ESC with "true" amps and Motors with a good heat dissipation. Buy cheap buy twice, that's what i learned:lol:

This is interesting, so the Team Orion gear is worth the money? Many at my club run it because the guy who supplies it wins the national champs and races at the club. I do wonder about the claimed specs, I am currently trying Trackstar servos with better specs than Savox 1251MG servos for 1/3 the price. They seem ok so far, but I'm still not convinced. What I am really trying to figure out is whether its worth the extra money on the motor or ESC or both as the price difference is huge!

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1 hour ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

This is interesting, so the Team Orion gear is worth the money? Many at my club run it because the guy who supplies it wins the national champs and races at the club. I do wonder about the claimed specs, I am currently trying Trackstar servos with better specs than Savox 1251MG servos for 1/3 the price. They seem ok so far, but I'm still not convinced. What I am really trying to figure out is whether its worth the extra money on the motor or ESC or both as the price difference is huge!

The answer is yes, no and maybe. 

Most people who win at club level do so down to driving skills more than how much they have spent on gear. 

Expensive stuff is usually good. And I’m sure when measured in a lab will out perform budget items. However on track or bashing it might well be difficult to spot that difference unless you are one of the elite.

of course this will depend on which items specifically you are comparing. But if you have no real point of reference then the only thing that matters is if it is sufficient.

 

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1 hour ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

Most people who win at club level do so down to driving skills more than how much they have spent on gear. 

This ^^

@Jonathon Gillham, If you are at the stage where you are trying to shave 10ths off your lap times, and not just to get a lap without incident or marshalled, then the top end stuff will make a difference, other than that, from my experience, you'll just crash quicker!!  🙄😂

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6 hours ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

The answer is yes, no and maybe. 

Most people who win at club level do so down to driving skills more than how much they have spent on gear. 

Expensive stuff is usually good. And I’m sure when measured in a lab will out perform budget items. However on track or bashing it might well be difficult to spot that difference unless you are one of the elite.

of course this will depend on which items specifically you are comparing. But if you have no real point of reference then the only thing that matters is if it is sufficient.

 

You have pretty much summed up what I thought. When I compare my cars to others I find them comparable, ie my offroad cars can clear the doubke with Trackstar motor and esc, same as the orion powered cars. My onroad with Speed Passion was as fast as the other cars worth many times as much the first night when my FDR was lower, but last race I was slower as I dropped pinions to get temps lower, and will work my way back up. So from what I have seen in the real world there isn't much difference, but think there should be.

@Wooders28 unfortunately I'm not shaving 10ths off with a slightly better line just yet, but on the plus side I'm shaving whole seconds off by not getting marshalled😂

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When i do some touring car practicing, i want to race a full battery in one strip, without stop. This is usually a 20min turn with a 6000mAh Lipo .

Try this outdoors in summer, at 35°air/55°track temps. When your combo takes the full run without shutting off, it's worth the money.(Of course with an appropriate and reasonable gearing / ESC setup)
The Orion takes the beating without probs, sometimes the tires don't:D
 

 

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3 hours ago, scoobybooster said:

When i do some touring car practicing, i want to race a full battery in one strip, without stop. This is usually a 20min turn with a 6000mAh Lipo .

Try this outdoors in summer, at 35°air/55°track temps. When your combo takes the full run without shutting off, it's worth the money.(Of course with an appropriate and reasonable gearing / ESC setup)
The Orion takes the beating without probs, sometimes the tires don't:D
 

 

I do this with my buggies which run Trackstar gear, they run about 15min - 20min before I remember I should give them a rest and swap to the other one.  The motors feel hot but not too hot, but I have just bought a IR temp gun to better keep an eye on things.

My touring car is the one that has been properly hot, but I don't know how hot since I didn't have the tool to measure.  It smelt pretty bad though and there were a few comments about someone overheating, oops!

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