What is it with modern appliances?

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

[rant]

I'm about to kick our Kenmore washing machine down the steps from the second floor and take a sledge hammer to it...  and it's only 2-3 years old!

When my wife and I bought our first house together 25 years ago, the sellers didn't want to take their old washer and dryer with them and sold them to us for $70.  Since we didn't have appliances already, this seemed like a great bargain.  They were basic and had the motors/transmissions/mechanical timers typical of budget appliances.  But you know what?  They worked pretty well.  And even though they had some mileage on them and did break, it was maybe $50 to replace the washing machine's mechanical timer, and it was maybe $10 to replace the belt in the dryer.  They just kept on chugging along with simple diagnostics and repairs.  Just like our really old gas furnace, which only needed a $10 thermocouple to keep working correctly.

Fast forward 15 years, and our first "nice" washer was a Whirlpool Duet front loader.  When it broke, it was such a pain in the neck to troubleshoot and I had to buy both a control board and a display board to keep it running -- that was an easy $200 for some really simple circuit boards that probably cost $10 to run down the assembly line.  Eventually it died again, and with 7-8 years of run time on it we went for a "better" wash, a Kenmore Elite top loader built by LG.  Well, here we are, the stupid thing is only 2-3 years old, and it looks like I'll be replacing a controller again.

The symptom is the machine starts up normally and toggles the tub back and forth, attempting to sense and distribute the load.  But, instead of turning on the water and going into the normal cycle, it stops and reports an E6 (clutch) error on the display panel.

So I tilted the machine on its back, tore apart the brushless motor, tore apart the clutch mechanism, tore apart the servo motor that controls the clutch and tested everything, and there are no mechanical or electrical problems in the bottom of the machine.  So now what?  Most likely scenario after eliminating these potential problems -- the controller isn't moving the servo and disengaging the clutch.  So what's that going to be?  Another $100-200?  On a relatively new machine with no signs of dust or dirt underneath it?

At the time it seemed like a good buy...  It had the features the wife wanted, it had the simple direct drive mechanism my engineering brain liked, and it seemed like the Kenmore reputation for quality might be worth something.  I think I'm just really angry because this is the second time we went for something nicer than the basic appliance, and it has bit us both times.  What happened to the washing machines that run for 10-15 years with no problems?  I'm really irritated at Whirlpool, LG, and Sears at the moment.

[/rant]

[Saito2 6673]

I feel for you. I know exactly what you mean. I saved up money to buy a washer and dryer about 25 years ago because I was sick of going to the laundromat after I moved away from home. I got the most basic, no frills ones they had and you know what? They are still working fine all these years later. My parents got bored and needed to blow money in their old age and started replacing perfectly functioning, but older appliances. Well as you can imagine the new stuff has been quite problematic after only several years. I may be sick of turning wrenches for a living but thank god I restore antique cars because I can only imagine the issues these new ones crammed full of tech and widgets will have as they age. 

[WillyChang 1814]

We used to have an Australian industry building decent appliances like fridges/washers/driers/ovens... that was just 3-5yrs ago, all gone now  they worked & kept working.

Whitegoods today (all imports) barely last 3yrs; the China stuff half you couldn't get parts for &/or uneconomical repair, the euro stuff you could get parts for but usually had to wait weeks & cost an arm & 2 legs.

 

New/modern cars are worse  rubbers degrading in latemodels under 10yrs, plastics going brittle (bits of trim ok. But bits of your plastic inlet tubing?!! yup those chunks get sucked straight into the fuel/air stream ), fabrics delaminating (foam gone to goo)... heck even the Toyota Camry's whole dashboard becomes sticky flypaper .

And its nigh IMPOSSIBLE to restore them IMHO. 

[Shodog 1835]

I agree with you they don’t make things last anymore.  My Maytag Neptune was her has just been troubles all along. It’s needed three expensive repairs in the time I’ve had it. All added up I’m only about $100 away from the purchase cost of a new machine. 

Same thing has happened with lawn mowers. A couple of years ago I splurged and bought a husquvarana  mower with a Honda motor.  You would think reliable but you’d be wrong. I got maybe 6 uses before it wouldn’t run. A $160 trip to the mower repair got me two more uses before it stopped working. I said screw it and left it out front with a free sign. 

[WillyChang 1814]

these things you can leave out in the rain for 50yrs & they still keep cutting

 

A friend bought a you-beaut Honda mower with fancy electric pushstart and all the modcons. Took it home, unloaded the crate in his living room and assembled it... then accidentally hit the Start button 

Cut a big disc in the shagpile  

[tamiya_1971 613]

So 5 years ago, we replaced our appliances in our kitchen with stainless steel, a whirlpool french door re****erator, stove, dishwasher, and microwave. I have had 2 drawers break in the re****erator, replaced at 30 bucks a pop, the vent cover on the bottom is broken, it's about 70 to replace (all outside the 3 year extended warranty). Dishwasher needed a new valve, 35 bucks, oven flat top is scratched already and we don't do anything except set pots on it for cooking. Microwave has been chugging along nicely though. 

Our now 10 year old GE dryer broke in the first year, knobs would constantly break. I found a place online, ordered about 8 of them because of how often they were breaking. Then after this batch of 8 came in, I still have 7 left. Go figure. Then the washing machine broke a couple years ago, the mode shifter went out. 100 bucks to replace myself along with a "special" hub nut wrench but spent an entire day of cussing under my breath just to get it all back together without leaks. My parents used a sears washer and dryer (my dad bought scratch and dent) from 1970 until they moved from their home in 2003 with minimal issues.   

[tamiya_1971 613]

I swear the above says refri gerator and nothing else. 

[Kingfisher 1171]

On 4/4/2018 at 9:58 PM, speedy_w_beans said:

[rant]

 

[/rant]

 

I went through a similar thing about 6 months ago with my Maytag Bravos. It was only 5yrs old and started making a loud noise when on the spin cycle. The noise was from a bearing going bad inside the gear case. The noise got so loud that you could hear it on the next block over, with my garage door closed. The bearing was a non-serviceable part, and you had to replace the entire gear case to replace the bearing. The cost of a new gear case was around $300.00 and my time. That was half the cost of the washing machine. I remember reading a bunch of other people had the same issue, and after they replaced the gear case, the issue happened to them again.

 

After a bit of online research and asking on DIY forums about the most reliable washing machine, I settled upon a Speed Queen and couldn't be more satisfied at this point. Speed Queen makes commercial washing machines that you find in laundromats. They also make those same machines for home use, without the coin slot of course. They're made in the US, and you can find parts for them.

https://www.speedqueen.com/

 

I'm pretty impressed with the Speed Queen so far. It's got an actual working agitator, unlike the small bump you find on most other washers. You can set the water level, unlike on my old Bravos X where it spent 10 minutes "sensing" the size of the load and barely giving you enough water. The Speed Queen washes clothes like I remember from washing machines when I was a kid. As soon as you push the start button, it immediately starts adding water. This startled me and caused me to jump the first time I did it, because I was so used to pushing the start button on the Bravos and waiting 10mins for it to do anything. 

But, what really impressed me was the first load of laundry I did. I have a pair of tan cargo pants that I use for yard work. I've had them for about 5yrs and have only ever washed them in the Bravos. After 5yrs of yardwork, they were looking a bit old, worn, and stained up. The tan was turning to a dingy looking grey color that I just assumed was stains. After one wash in the Speed Queen, the tan no longer looks a dingy grey color. They actually look like a nice worn bright tan pair of pants. We also noticed this with some of our towels. They came out looking brighter and cleaner. We compared this to some towels which were washed in the Bravos the day before and there was a noticeable difference. Clearly, the old Bravos X wasn't doing its job and we had been wearing less-than-clean clothes. After noticing this, we put the Speed Queen to the test. The first day, it saw "commercial" duty because we rewashed everything we own. 

We never liked the way the Bravos washed, because it never seemed like there was enough water going to to the clothes, and sometimes parts of the clothes wouldn't even get wet and you'd have to do another wash.

The Speed Queen can do a full load of laundry in 24mins, where-as the exact same load in the Bravos would take 45mins to an hour. 

I got it from a small family owned appliance shop who has guys that specialize in repairing Speed Queens, though he says they don't get many calls to fix them. I assume anybody selling you a product would tell you that though.

So, what happened to my old Bravos? I stripped the console, main board, water valves, and glass lid off and listed them on eBay. I scrapped the rest and got a whole $3.50 cents for it at the recycling center.  

The total weight of the Bravos was 114 pounds. The Speed Queen weighs 195 pounds. When looking under the skirt of the Queen, it appears to have more metal parts, and the Bravos was mostly plastic. 

 

My suggestion is to read up on a Speed Queen before you decide on a new machine. I honestly cannot wait for my Maytag dryer to die so I can replace it with a Speed Queen. 

 

[Kingfisher 1171]

On 4/5/2018 at 7:45 PM, Shodog said:

A couple of years ago I splurged and bought a husquvarana  mower with a Honda motor.  You would think reliable but you’d be wrong. I got maybe 6 uses before it wouldn’t run. A $160 trip to the mower repair got me two more uses before it stopped working. I said screw it and left it out front with a free sign. 

My neighbor had one of those mowers. He proudly showed it off when he first got it. About a month later, I noticed he was hiring people to mow his yard. I haven't seen the husquvarna since. 

 

[Juggular 4961]

Our house came with a washer and a drier.  My wife was on me for like 4 years straight to replace them. 

But I persevered.  After the first year, Tony, to our Southwest dumped his 6 year old washer.  He said, "I tell you, these new things last only for 5-6 years!"  The second year, McPhersons, to our East replaced their washer after 7 years.  And now I hear you guys saying the same thing.  Our dryer did make noises, but when I bought a belt to replace, it stopped screaming (I guess it didn't like to be stripped apart).  I think we will keep those 90's machines until they die.  When they do, I'll consider SpeedQueen.    

We've been lucky that our 2004 Subaru never gave us any problem for 14 years (cross our fingers!).  It has been solid.  Occasionally brake pads or the rotors got replaced.  At 9 year mark, I got new tires, belts and stuff just to be safe.  Replacing AT fluid and filter is super easy on Subarus.  The oxygen sensor went out after 11 years.  The power steering pump just got replaced.  Things you would expect to replace after a decade.  That's about it.  My brother-in-law had an AWD BMW 328?  It was always being fixed for this and that.  His AWD couldn't get out of the parking lot when it snowed just an inch. 

Once when we were living in an apartment, it snowed like 15-16 inches.  Somebody had blocked the mouth of the parking lot.  We called cops.  The cops said, "even if we tow it away, how are you going to get out?"  My wife said, "It's a Subaru!"  And then she drove 30 yards, pushing the snow in front and leaving a car belly-trail behind, and drove off the curb.  The cops didn't say a word and drove away.  Here, our driveway has a bit of an incline, but I don't bother shoveling the snow, unless the snow is deep enough to plug the tailpipe.  Then I shovel shallow, along the path of the tailpipe (I'm a lazy guy).  My brother-in-law is now driving a Subaru too.  Suzy and John beyond the flower bush drive 2 Subarus, and I see more Subarus when Suzy's grown children visit.  

Below is our ancient Forester. (I don't know whose rabbit that was. He was nonchalantly eating our grass, and then slowly pranced away.)   

[speedy_w_beans 4272]

Thanks for the stories and commiseration, everyone!  I'm in good company.

Thursday I gave it one last try and checked over the mechanism, sensors, motors, wiring harness, etc. in the machine again and concluded it was definitely the controller.  Argh!

Friday morning I was researching washing machines and was surprised to see the reliability rankings.  There was a bit of conflicting data, but just the idea the industry accepts a substantial (3-10%) failure rate in the first year blew my mind.  Some of the data posted by appliance repair companies was helpful.

In the end my wife and I went to the local home improvement store and bought another LG top loader, just without the useless Kenmore branding.  We spent less on this machine than the other one and tacked on a 3-year service plan for $80.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result, but the data suggests staying away from Maytag and GE.  Whirpool seems to be middle-of-the-road.  LG and Samsung seem to be better on average even if my experience wasn't.

Saturday our old washing machine became an organ donor; most of the parts are common with the new one.  I pulled the main drive motor, the clutch, the sensors, the servo motors, the door latch solenoid, the water valves, the drain pump, the electrical filter boards, the complete wiring harness, the power cord, the leveling feet, and other parts.  All of these parts will fit in a box and sit in the garage waiting in case the new machine fails and I need something quick to keep it going (hopefully not a control board).  The enclosure, top cover, and tub itself will head to the recycling center next week.

Kingfisher, I like the Speed Queen you bought.  That's my next move if this machine fails in 3 years.

[WillyChang 1814]

Dayum I like that SpeedQueen too!

If only it weren't 110V and they were sold here  

[Juggular 4961]

12 hours ago, speedy_w_beans said:

There was a bit of conflicting data, but just the idea the industry accepts a substantial (3-10%) failure rate in the first year blew my mind.  Some of the data posted by appliance repair companies was helpful.  ....

....  bought another LG top loader, just without the useless Kenmore branding.  We spent less on this machine than the other one and tacked on a 3-year service plan for $80.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result, but the data suggests staying away from Maytag and GE.  Whirpool seems to be middle-of-the-road.  LG and Samsung seem to be better on average even if my experience wasn't. 

 

It makes me wonder if the failure is intentional.  If 100,000 units of washers are sold, 3% would be 3,000 units.  If it costs $700, even 3% would be 2.1 MILLION dollars.  

Say half the disgruntled buyers go elsewhere.  But the other half would stay like Speedy did because LG is still more reliable than others.  And, people with broken Maytag who are now turning to LG too.  If we consider that a wash (pun intended), would LG want to lower the failure rate to 1%, and lose 1.4Million dollars?  Or keep the failure rate the way it is, and keep that 2 Million dollars?   

LG could keep the failure rate the way it is, as long as the company's reputation is still better than others.  3%-10% failure could earn them 2 Million to 11 Million dollars.  

Do our ESCs fail on us 3-10% of the times?  No, because Tamiya replaces them, so they want to keep the failure rate low.  What if installing 8000fF capacitor instead 2000uF can prevent failures?  For 20 cents more, they can keep the washers running for decades.  But no company wants to race for perfection.  In the end, a few companies will go bankrupt, and the top company also makes less money as a result of the competition.  And if one winner company wants to buy the rest, they will be hit with the anti-trust law, and cannot monopolize (to jack up the price).  Which means Maytag might want to keep the status quo the way it is, even if Maytag might be at the bottom of the market.  I suspect such "understanding" has become an unspoken rule.  As long as they don't actually get together and discuss who takes how much (like mob bosses), they are not against the anti market-fixing law.  

Even if concerned-citizen-for-washers wants a lemon law for washers (to guarantee for 5 years, for example), corporations can spend just a few million dollars on Washington not to protect consumers, telling the politicians, "you are keeping the Freedom (to fail and make money) alive."  

For all I know, Comcast or Verizon could slow down this page on purpose, now that net-neutrality is gone last December.  LG might pay Comcast to block threads critical to LG (I shouldn't give them ideas).  The repair companies' data that Speedy saw?  That might not be around for long.  Spectrum and Futaba could lobby to make us pay for our 2.4Gh radio waves per minutes (like cell phones).  --Again, I shouldn't give them ideas!--  Federal Communications Commission is rather friendly with corporations, it could force the people to pay, saying "this is for market Freedom and Innovation (for corporations to charge the people)."   I like SpeedQueen, if their corporate motto is reliability.  They can overthrow the unspoken "understanding."   But now, LG could pay Verizon to slow down SpeedQueen's site, unless SpeedQueen pays more than LG.  The Free market relies on the free exchange of information.  If Ford can block news of people burning in Pintos, that's very good for Ford, but no justice for the people inside the burning cars.  I'm wracking my brain for nothing?  Maybe.  But Ford decided that letting people die and paying for the deaths were cheaper than recalling Pintos, until the government ordered a recall to protect the people.  Too bad FCC isn't on the side of the people.  

[Units edited.  It's a rant for sure.  What if I'm a house painter, and 10% of my paint job runs off the walls in 1 year, and then I have the audacity to ask you for $700 more?  But that's the corporate standard today.  Look up Ford Pinto from youtube. I cannot link.  Maybe Ford paid to prevent linking already?  lol...] 

[WillyChang 1814]

5 hours ago, Juggular said:

It makes me wonder if the failure is intentional.  If 100,000 units of washers are sold, 3% would be 3,000 units.  If it costs $700, even 3% would be 2.1 BILLION dollars.  

"million" bud  they're not $700k Ltd Edn Astons 

Bearing in mind 100,000 units @ $700 = $70 million 

ya can't create cost of $2.1b when total revenue is only $70m

(even creative accounting has it bounds of plausibility )

 

[Juggular 4961]

LOL, Willy's right, 3% is "only" 2.1 million dollars.  Apparently, 3rd day of not-eating didn't help with my math skills (at least, I hope it could unclog arteries).  

Let me edit my math.  The scale is different.  But Ford's cost for making Pinto safer was just $11 per car.  Ford was willing to let people burn for $11.  Whereas Tamiya decided not to jump into LiPo battery business, so things would not burn down.  Something to think about... 

[WillyChang 1814]

Pinto is an iconic case but c'mon, Furd just got unlucky it got picked up in the "perfect storm" of lawyers vs bigCoy-with-public-liability-insurance - it's all a matter of "wrong" timing.

It could easily have been any other car company... Pinto is a tank vs a Austin Mini or worse, the Mini MOKE  heh go peek where their tanks are! (check behind the taillight & side pontoons...)

 

50-60yrs ago (1940-50s) just about ALL cars held their fuel in tanks behind rear axle... why? Simples! That was furthest  point AWAY from the engine where there's sparks & parts hot enough to ignite leaking fuel = safety. Just 20yrs EARLIER (1930s) most cars held their tanks in front high up on the firewall (heh!) above the engine & fuel was gravity fed... hey they didn't need fuel pumps  

Also didn't have so many ambo-chasing lawyers back then!! 

 

As for washers failing 3% in first year... it's possible... but they'd all be under 1yr warranty, they just get fixed for free? 

I've hung around whitegoods repairers & parts suppliers more than I'd liked, they all say Washers are the only machine that don't (can't) get fully tested at the factory before they're boxed up & shipped out. Everything else can be easily plugged in & run thru its paces before despatch whereas a washer gets its first full cycle only after installing.

There's other issues like dodgy installation... unlevel location (kills bearings fast), hard water (kills solenoid valves), salty air, hot damp environment... lots can go wrong outside of mfg control.

Downunder the deliverer, unless you tell them otherwise, usually stays around to help install the machine & runs a quick cycle before they leave with all the packaging. Dunno if that's laid down by factory guidelines or part of the delivery surcharge I've paid for, but I guess that does help machine longevity.  

 

Back to numbers  Amazing thing is IMHO today's washers are the same price in $XXX as they were 25-30yrs ago (my personal whitegoods buying experience), so in real $ terms they're like 1/4-1/3rd what they cost back when.

Cars are running about 1/3-1/2 in real $ by comparo.

 

[Wooders28 4718]

Everything is designed to last X number of years, trouble is, X is warrantee plus a bit. I know someone who works in the car manufacturing industry, (not saying which brand, but blue and oval 🙄) and they've  redesigned parts out of cheaper material, as the original parts were lasting too long. As with any company, they need to sell units, and things lasting a lifetime doesn't make for great sales! 

[WillyChang 1814]

1 hour ago, Wooders28 said:

Everything is designed to last X number of years, trouble is, X is warrantee plus a bit. I know someone who works in the car manufacturing industry, (not saying which brand, but blue and oval 🙄) and they've  redesigned parts out of cheaper material, as the original parts were lasting too long. As with any company, they need to sell units, and things lasting a lifetime doesn't make for great sales! 

Bingo, smacked the nail right on its head  yup new cars today get 3-7yrs warranty and they're generally designed for a 10y service life.

Naturally as a rebel against The System I see it as a personal challenge to save The Environment by extending this service lifespan  one of which under my care indeed is what I spell as "Furd" (rhymes with "third") . Last week's bandaid job involved gummy roofing mastic, tinfoil & carpentry brackets.  Month before I pinned up the sagging roof lining with map pins  I have no shame 

More energy is spent BUILDING a new Prius than it'll ever save in its lifespan, vs continue using an existing vehicle even if it's a chronic gas guzzler.

Still stubbornly driving Australian-made too (our car factories have nearly all shutdown) ... once upon a time I also insisted on maintaining them with Australian-made tyres, batteries etc... but sadly those factories are all gone too.

All those 1000s of jobs lost/exported... and the pollies still wondering why un/underemployment is climbing?!?  bats couldn't be blinder!

[Wooders28 4718]

12 minutes ago, WillyChang said:

More energy is spent BUILDING a new Prius than it'll ever save in its lifespan

Slightly off topic,call me cynical , but it's becoming more obvious it's nothing to do with the environment, and more to do with the fact the 'wests' dead dinosaur supply will run out before the 'rouge states' will, and whoever controls the commodities, controls the world.

17 minutes ago, WillyChang said:

All those 1000s of jobs lost/exported... and the pollies still wondering why un/underemployment is climbing?!

Trouble is, developed countries have nasty things like, "human rights" and  "minimum wage" , which isnt good for profits either!