Leckster

Oh Dear.... (Bruiser clone)

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The main thing from now on is to only buy a bruiser if it comes with a Manual or box. At least that adds a certain authenticity to the purchase.  Otherwise you could end up with the Chinese copy made from cheese steel.

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On 6/2/2018 at 8:11 AM, markbt73 said:

Maybe Tamiya should do something similar: move the plastic 3-speed chassis down-market, to allow those of us who just want to play with a multi-speed transmission to get a "real" one for less, and leave the all-metal version as the premium version.

Interesting idea. For me at least though, the metal is most of the appeal.

If this company can make pretty authentic cars this cheap (and it turns out the quality is pretty good), I'd almost suggest Tamiya gives them a job! License the models and molds to them, put the Tamiya name on them, and let them crank out a "Tamiya Classics" re-release line of all the old models that are just too expensive for Tamiya to re-make these days: the Blazer, Wild Willy 1, etc. Tamiya gets a cut of the money, we don't have to feel badly about IP loss, and we get spares/kits of cars that we'll likely never see again.

 

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On 6/2/2018 at 11:32 AM, qatmix said:

The main thing from now on is to only buy a bruiser if it comes with a Manual or box. At least that adds a certain authenticity to the purchase.  Otherwise you could end up with the Chinese copy made from cheese steel.

This is actually a great point. And not just the quality of the metal ... I am super paranoid about the "safety" of materials used and lack of safety standards/requirements. There's a lot of (potentially unfounded) talk about paints and plastics particularly containing toxic elements.

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On 5/29/2018 at 9:35 AM, markturbo said:

I ordered mine off Ebay today for $300 USD shipped to Canada, it was just a little over $400 CDN.

 

 

Pretty much the cost of a re-release Bruiser body set then ;) Scary!

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On 6/2/2018 at 1:32 PM, qatmix said:

The main thing from now on is to only buy a bruiser if it comes with a Manual or box. At least that adds a certain authenticity to the purchase.  Otherwise you could end up with the Chinese copy made from cheese steel.

It's only a matter of time before someone buys both the Tamiya and the clone. Then swaps the Tamiya contents for the clones contents, and lists it on eBay in the Tamiya box to make some of their money back. 

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I've got a real one I can't bring myself (or son) to separate from. Got to be honest, probably going to purchase one of these.

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Wow can’t believe what i’m seeing almost exact replica of the Bruiser re. I seen fake buggys but knock off 3 spd truck..omg

Tamiya is not only one facing this issue. Even the high end $299 Lego Technic Porsche GT3 RS has been clone by company called Lepin, there’s bunch of videos comparing them, You can’t tell the difference except for the inferior quality of the material. Now they about to clone the new Lego Bugatti Chiron that came out this week.

These fake Bruiser will be same inferior metal pieces that probably will cut you due to rough finishes or rust easily who knows. I guess the worst is for scammer buying then and sell them as Tamiya ones like some mentioned in earlier posts.

then those people, especially new to the hobby is going to write bad reviews about Tamiya and not knowing they actually bought it from some who pass it as Tamiya when its actually one of these fake ones..

 

 

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The thing is, it won't necessarily have inferior materials or finish. There are many other ways to make models cheaper - skip R&D costs by stealing intellectual property, build the model in a country with little or no restrictions on unfair labour practices, incur minimal marketing costs by simply letting people such as ourselves to discuss it on forums such as this, while watching the number of Google hits go through the roof...

 

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2 hours ago, JYCM3 said:

Tamiya is not only one facing this issue. Even the high end $299 Lego Technic Porsche GT3 RS has been clone by company called Lepin, there’s bunch of videos comparing them, You can’t tell the difference except for the inferior quality of the material. Now they about to clone the new Lego Bugatti Chiron that came out this week.

I had a look at one of those videos... it is the little things that make all the difference. The tires on the Lepin are made out of something horrible, the hubs don't spin freely, the instructions are not quite spot on etc etc.

I hate seeing these companies ripping off the quality manufacturers like Lego and Tamiya. I guess over time the rip off merchants who do no R&D or licensing will get better at making ever closer replicas, but I do hope that Tamiya, Lego (and for that matter Porsche and Toyota who are not doubt not getting their licensing fee), work out a way to put a halt to blatant theft like this.

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I really don't understand why anyone would want to buy one of these.

I could understand if it was a clone of something modern like a high-lift or something, so you can get hold of a cheap 3-speed.

But surely you buy a Tamiya Bruiser because you want a Tamiya Bruiser, probably mostly for reasons of nostalgia. Okay, the rereleases are not the same as the originals,

but at least they're still Tamiya Bruisers. A Ling Long copy of a Bruiser is unlikely to scratch that itch I would think.

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1 hour ago, Fuijo said:

I really don't understand why anyone would want to buy one of these.

I could understand if it was a clone of something modern like a high-lift or something, so you can get hold of a cheap 3-speed.

But surely you buy a Tamiya Bruiser because you want a Tamiya Bruiser, probably mostly for reasons of nostalgia. Okay, the rereleases are not the same as the originals,

but at least they're still Tamiya Bruisers. A Ling Long copy of a Bruiser is unlikely to scratch that itch I would think.

for the majority i would say the price is the main factor.

i have a bruiser and can't bring myself to use it as it cost me nearly £1000 gbp with all the stuff that is on it and i would hate to ruin the paint job.

but if and when it come to the uk and it stays at price as i have already said i may buy one and i would'nt worry about using it 

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I am baffled that any Tamiya fan would buy this Chinese Bruiser clone. :blink:  Out of principle alone, I wouldn't. Even if it was 10 bucks for a whole kit, I wouldn't.

Think about what is happening...

1. Quality

If you take the attitude of "I will buy anything I can get, at the cheapest price I can get it!!", you are participating in a race to the bottom, pure and simple. This is the exact reason why in some market segments, every product is now made in China. And all the German, US, Australian, Swedish, Japanese, NZ, British, Canadian etc manufacturing is either gone, or has moved to China. The end result? Products are made cheaper and cheaper, and usually not designed to last. Most electric appliances are not designed to be repaired anymore. You just buy them again - which means yet more money for China. And this also means more rubbish in landfill, and more harm to the environment.

It used to be that in the 1950s people would buy an appliance, and it would last them at least 20 years (ask parents or grandparents). Now in many cases, you are lucky to get 6 or 7 years out of an appliance. Then you chuck it in the bin, and buy another one.

How can it be that our society was actually more advanced and sustainable (in this aspect) back in the 1950s, than it is today?

Yet here we have Tamiya - one hobby company that is still holding out against this trend. Still making top quality products, designed to last. And many still made in Japan.

2. Greed

The Chinese businessmen who clone products from Tamiya, are not doing it for charity toward us, nor out of their own poverty. It takes significant financial means to clone a product like a Tamiya Bruiser. It is a calculated business decision that requires significant capital. And the reason they clone is simply for bigger profit. Why don't they make an R/C truck which is a bit inspired by the Bruiser and merely similar to a Bruiser? Why do they clone outright, instead? The answer is greed. There is more profit to be made by hijacking the consumer awareness of someone else's product, than making a new one. Just look at the free advertising we have given this Bruiser clone, right here in this forum.

For a good refresher about the attitude of Chinese counterfeiters, read this short article: https://www.elevationlab.com/blogs/news/amazon-is-complicit-with-counterfeit-sellers

This company designed, tested, copyrighted and manufactured a small product. They listed it on Amazon. Then the Chinese moved on it, cloning it over and over. At one point, 100% of sales of the product were going to the inferior Chinese clones. The company had to appeal to Amazon to try to move faster, to shut down the counterfeit listings. There is a culture of cloning and counterfeiting in China that is a scourge to world trade, and to anyone who likes to buy anything of quality.

3. Future

The bottom line is: If you care about the future of Tamiya, why would you donate $300 to companies who are ripping off Tamiya's products and who risk driving Tamiya out of business one day? You should not even do it out of "curiosity". Spend the 300 bucks on something else you need or want from Tamiya. Tamiya's kits (relative to the 1980s) have never been cheaper than they are today. What excuse do you have to complain about Tamiya's prices in 2018, when a Tamiya Hornet in 1984 cost about 3 times as much as it does today? If the Bruiser is too expensive for your budget, well, that's what it costs to design, manufacture and sell one at a Tamiya level of quality, and by a Japanese company with 60+ years of good reputation and history. Tamiya does not have to apologize for this, nor does it have to allow other companies to make clones so that every person on Earth can afford something that looks like a Bruiser.

The very fact Tamiya has got their prices so (relatively) low these days, also tells you they are already desperately trying to survive against the greed of cheap competitors who have only profit in mind. Many Chinese competitors do not even bother with establishing a brand name - because they don't care about reputation or recognition. Only profit.

Tamiya is now possibly the last R/C manufacturer who still manufactures anything in Japan (not all of their kits, but some). This in itself is a sad situation, because of the pride and quality deeply ingrained in Japanese culture, when setting up companies and brands in the post-war era. But even Tamiya will not last in Japan. Or at all. If we support and promote Chinese clones.

;) Sorry for getting a bit into a rant here. But with all the other R/C companies either gone, owned by Chinese, or manufacturing in China, I just would like to see Tamiya Japan continue to survive well into the future.

H.

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5 minutes ago, Hibernaculum said:

I am baffled that any Tamiya fan would buy this Chinese Bruiser clone. :blink:  Out of principle alone, I wouldn't. Even if it was 10 bucks for a whole kit, I wouldn't.

Think about what is happening...

1. Quality

If you take the attitude of "I will buy anything I can get, at the cheapest price I can get it!!", you are participating in a race to the bottom, pure and simple. This is the exact reason why in some market segments, every product is now made in China. And all the German, US, Australian, Swedish, Japanese, NZ, British, Canadian etc manufacturing is either gone, or has moved to China. The end result? Products are made cheaper and cheaper, and usually not designed to last. Most electric appliances are not designed to be repaired anymore. You just buy them again - which means yet more money for China. And this also means more rubbish in landfill, and more harm to the environment.

It used to be that in the 1950s people would buy an appliance, and it would last them at least 20 years (ask parents or grandparents). Now in many cases, you are lucky to get 6 or 7 years out an appliance. Then you chuck it in the bin and buy another.

How can it be that our society was more advanced in the 1950s, than it is today?

Yet here we have Tamiya - one hobby company that is still holding out against this trend. Still making quality products, designed to last. And many made in Japan.

2. Greed

The Chinese businessmen who clone products from Tamiya, are not doing it for charity toward us, nor out of their own poverty. It takes significant financial means to clone a product like a Tamiya Bruiser. It is a calculated move. And the reason they clone is simply for bigger profit. Why don't they make a truck which is a bit inspired by the Bruiser and merely similar to a Bruiser? Why do they clone outright, instead? The answer is greed. There is more profit to be made by hijacking the consumer awareness of someone else's product, than making a new one. Just look at the free advertising we have given this Bruiser clone, right here in this forum.

To get a good reminder of the attitude of Chinese counterfeiters, read this short article: https://www.elevationlab.com/blogs/news/amazon-is-complicit-with-counterfeit-sellers

This company designed, tested, copyrighted and manufactured a small product. They listed it on Amazon. Then the Chinese moved on it, cloning it over and over. At one point, 100% of sales of the product were going to the inferior Chinese clones. The company appealed to Amazon to try to move faster, to shut down the counterfeit listings.

3. Future

The bottom line is: If you care about the future of Tamiya, why would you donate $300 to companies who are ripping off Tamiya's products and who risk driving Tamiya out of business one day? You should not even do it out of "curiosity". Spend the 300 bucks on something else you need or want from Tamiya. Tamiya's kits (relative to the 1980s) have never been cheaper than they are today. What excuse do you have to complain about Tamiya's prices in 2018, when a Tamiya Hornet in 1984 cost about 3 times as it does today? If the Bruiser is too expensive for your budget, well, that's what it costs to design, manufacture and sell one at a Tamiya level of quality, and by a Japanese company with 60+ years of good reputation and history. Tamiya does not have to apologize for this, nor does it have to allow other companies to make clones so that every person on earth can afford something that looks like a Bruiser.

The very fact Tamiya has got their prices so (relatively) low these days, also tells you they are already desperately trying to survive against the greed of cheap competitors who have only profit in mind. Many Chinese competitors do not even bother with establishing a brand name - because they don't care about reputation or recognition. Only profit.

Tamiya is now possibly the last R/C manufacturer who still manufactures anything in Japan (not all of their kits, but some). This in itself is a sad situation, because of the pride and quality deeply ingrained in Japanese culture, when setting up companies and brands in the post-war era. But even Tamiya will not last in Japan. Or at all. If we support and promote Chinese clones.

;) Sorry for getting a bit into a rant here. But with all the other R/C companies either gone, owned by Chinese, or manufacturing in China, I just would like to see Tamiya Japan continue to survive well into the future.

H.

Very Well Said H .  

We see this all the time on here . ESC's , BL's etc , all buying cheap one's . Then wonder why some of the companies

have closed . As they were the one's that have paved the way for technology we have today , to get screwed over

by clones , Or companies that reverse engineer what has all ready been made etc .

I'm old school , I will buy from companies i have been buying from for years . I Use LRP for my BL , ESC 's .

On most of what i have & some others hacker is another one . Just depends on whats in the shop i can get 

at the time . But most is LRP . I'm of course a Tamiya Nut & have alot of that , But i do have others , as we

( mates ) race ( bash ) them for fun . All have same car & motor etc , so it's fair run & fun . 

I can remember , replacing elements in Jug & toaster & fix things as a kid . But now it's all throw

it out stuff & we are in the "PLEASE" recycle era ?? . We all did , But it has come down to , it was cheaper

to buy new jug than it was to fix .

AND we wonder why all the old companies die & china will take over . Just remember this . If you let

them , they will take over & once they have crushed all other companies . They will charge what ever they want .

 

 

I can go on :lol:  .  

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4 minutes ago, matman said:

Just remember this . If you let them , they will take over & once they have crushed all other companies . They will charge what ever they want .

The other thing we lose here is the innovation/product development. And once there are no more products to copy and exploit, they just move to the next market. Some of the money we pay for Tamiya is funding the R&D of the next wave of models. I for one am happy to pay a bit more ... in fact, I think I'll just move my laptop away from my wife for a minute and go order a new Tamiya!

 

 

 

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Don't get me wrong - I'm not going to rush out and buy one. If I had a spare $300 it would go towards MGB parts (which are sadly also increasingly made in China). And if I had $300 to spend on an RC car it would be a re-release Javelin. And if I had $300 to spend on a Bruiser, I'd be looking for an old wreck to restore. These guys aren't getting my money.

I'm just saying I understand the appeal, and Tamiya are shooting themselves in the foot by not working with the cloners, especially with their new price-fixing scam. "Don't be fooled by imitations" only works when customers care whether or not it's an imitaiton, and outside of forums like this, they probably don't.

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I think unfortunately this is society today because of the likes of Amazon everybody wants it as cheap as possible and delivered to our doors for next to nothing🤔 we don't care about the consequences of the likes of cloning a fantastic iconic product like the bruiser or the damage it does to the company that have invested in it😞, the likes of Amazon (and other domineering online companies) tap into our obsessive behaviour for one reason only.......profit! The cheap labour they use from the poor staff they have picking the products to the couriers they employ who have to basically brake the law to get the job done and then get done over with the pay packet at the end of the week😬 and the CEO of Amazon (Sorry for using this company as an example but they do dominate everything so be it!) Is quoted to be the richest man in the world! Of course he is because he pays his many employees rubbish wages and in the UK we then subsidize that rubbish (and I've kept that bit clean) wage with credits so in efect we the tax payer are paying for his massive wealth 😠 and don't get me started on tax avoidance!, what I'm trying to say is this is just an example of what is going on around us and do we care?........not one bit as long as we get what we want when we want it! What a world we live in😔😔!

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19 hours ago, topforcein said:

for the majority i would say the price is the main factor.

i have a bruiser and can't bring myself to use it as it cost me nearly £1000 gbp with all the stuff that is on it and i would hate to ruin the paint job.

but if and when it come to the uk and it stays at price as i have already said i may buy one and i would'nt worry about using it  

But it wont actually be a Bruiser that you're running will it?

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2 hours ago, Fuijo said:

But it wont actually be a Bruiser that you're running will it?

no i wont but as i did say i dont run my bruiser anyway.

know ive been into rc since i was 18 and as a whole i have always brought tamiya but i have also had hpi and traxxas and yokomo know the 2 hpi i built and run once then sold it the other is still sitting in my loft as i dont like them the yokomo i used 2 times and sold it as i did'nt like that either and i still have my traxxas and i wont sell it (unlesss i got decent money for it).;)

i know their are many members on here that have other than tamiya what i would call inferior makes and they enjoy them take a look at nearly all hobby shops and see what they sell from how many i have by me tamiya has know been shoved into the corner and the cheaper models have centre stage as that what sells.

what i say is if you dont try something you wont know if its any good but you have to first buy it to try it for all any one knows this truck could turn out to be as capable as the next truck ...it all depends on what they would expect of it ...what i would not expect of it is for it to perform like a bruiser but if it does then hey your onto a winner and for more than half the price like i have said you cant nock a item until you personally try it you may be surprised.

know for what the bruiser costs their are a load more capable trucks out there that cost a lot less but no one is slating them are they.

unfortunately in this day and age it is a buyers market and most people dont have that kind of disposable income to buy high end rc's these days at least if someone buys one of these that is new to rc they then may move on to better rc's in the future.

my first nitro truck was a pro.15 t-maxx then after a year i swoped the engine for the .25 and then i moved onto the revo so i started of with a cheap truck then ended up getting one more expensive 

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On 6/6/2018 at 2:21 PM, topforcein said:

unfortunately in this day and age it is a buyers market and most people dont have that kind of disposable income to buy high end rc's these days at least if someone buys one of these that is new to rc they then may move on to better rc's in the future.

This is what it comes down to for me. I can only afford to be loyal to my own wallet. I have 12 Tamiya models and I buy a healthy share of Tamiya parts too so I'm not going to feel ashamed for buying a sensored brushless combo for £50 instead of the Tamiya one for £160. If the £50 one didn't exist, I wouldn't buy one at all. 

If anything, the main reason I have as many Tamiya models as I do is because I can make savings when it comes to radios, servos, ESCs, lipos, bearings etc. If that makes me a bad person then so be it. I'm sure some people would opine that I shouldn't be in the hobby if I can't afford to buy name brand everything (I was once called a peasant on rcgroups) but hey, life is short and then you're gone forever.

I have no idea if I would buy this clone but what I can say with 100% certainty is that I will never buy a brand new, genuine one from Tamiya so my purchasing the copy wouldn't effect them. It's either I buy 12 Tamiya models and no Bruiser or I buy 12 Tamiya models and fake Bruiser.

Obviously the problem starts when people who could afford the genuine and would have bought one decide to get the fake instead, that is obviously a different situation. I'm not sure how big of a problem that would be though, how many people who can afford a real Porsche would buy the Chinese clone?

I definitely prefer it when Chinese companies come up with original designs though and I know a fair few Chinese RC companies are run by people who are passionate about the hobby. Even those little WPL "military" trucks, the boss is a member of the facebook group and directly engages with users and releases hopups based on what people want. 

Hopefully, if the recent Lego vs Bela case was anything to go by, these blatant copies won't be around for too much longer anyway. 

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Looks fine to me.  I'm gonna pop down the model shop in my genuine Countach and pick one up...

4e384833f869dd13c42e453c54d11818-golf-ca

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1 hour ago, nowinaminute said:

If anything, the main reason I have as many Tamiya models as I do is because I can make savings when it comes to radios, servos, ESCs, lipos, bearings etc. If that makes me a bad person then so be it. I'm sure some people would opine that I shouldn't be in the hobby if I can't afford to buy name brand everything

I don't think the issue here has to do with brand names, but instead with intellectual property. If these cheap electronics, etc. do not infringe on anyone’s IP, then there is no debate to have. However, in the case of this clone, Tamiya’s IP has clearly been stolen. Regardless of whether someone ever intended to purchase a Bruiser, purchasing the clone directly supports a company that has stolen from Tamiya. 

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I think Tamiya have missed an opportunity with the Bruiser.  I cannot afford to to spend £1k on a 3-speed kit and the electronics to go into it, so am never going to buy a Bruiser.  But...if Tamiya had priced the Bruiser lower, then I may have been tempted.

I know there are some differences between the original & re-re, but Tamiya have presumably had minimum design costs for the re-re as the bulk of the work was done 30 years ago.  Similarly for the tooling (assuming they had kept originals), though I accept this may have not been compatible with modern equipment.  Also, modern manufacturing techniques are presumably faster/cheaper than they were 30 years ago.

So why put the high price on a product with a niche following, when there are more capable products for a similar price out there?  Anyone wanting to do some serious bashing isn't going to opt for a Bruiser, it will be vintage fans Tamiya are targeting with this.  Most of us may have more disposable income than we had 30 years ago, but surely they would have attracted more sales by going with a lower price, and shut off the threat from cheap clones at the start?

Just my two-penny's worth...

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6 hours ago, StrokerBoy said:

Looks fine to me.  I'm gonna pop down the model shop in my genuine Countach and pick one up...

4e384833f869dd13c42e453c54d11818-golf-ca

Ahem, that's the Hasegawa Egg Coontash

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On 6/6/2018 at 9:21 AM, topforcein said:

my first nitro truck was a pro.15 t-maxx then after a year i swoped the engine for the .25 and then i moved onto the revo so i started of with a cheap truck then ended up getting one more expensive 

I would call that "gateway drug effect." 

Like you, I bought Montero Wheelie because it was cheap ($120) and then bought 5 more from Tamiya in 1 year.  Originally, I wanted to buy MST CMX, but that was $250, so I went with cheaper Tamiya.  Now that Tamiya raised their price, CC01 Bronco is $280 at Tower Hobbies.  That's too much for me.  Just as Nowinaminute said, I can only be loyal to my own wallet (I am an RC peasant too, LOL...).  I would like to be loyal to Tamiya.  But Tamiya charges $280 for something that used to be $150 until last week? 

I don't want the re-packaged 25-year-old CC01 that bad.  Since Tamiya wants to give away the "gateway drug effect" to other companies, my next purchase might be MST CMX or CFX.  They are like CR01 crawler ($507 now), but half the price.   

I can get a CFX for $250...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MST-CFX-C-10-1-10-4WD-High-Performance-Off-Road-RC-Cars-Kit-532165/132480002543?epid=28013563311&hash=item1ed86c69ef:g:SY8AAOSwvktaZqfp

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