Oh Dear.... (Bruiser clone)

[Badcrumble]

30 minutes ago, nowinaminute said:

It has the same basic ladder frame design that most scale crawlers have these days but it differs in the details significantly, the motor is mounted transversely vs longitudinally, little to no parts interchangeability. 

I need to pay more attention!

The thread I read was very complimentary of the 6x6.

[markbt73]

Please keep this thread open. It's an interesting discussion and a lot of good points are being made.

@Pintopower: It's funny you should mention the Traxxas TRX-4. I didn't care about it at all when it first came out, dismissing it as just another overpriced RTR. But now that they've come out with a kit version (especially with no body), for under $400, it really seems intriguing. Mechanically, it's fascinating, with the locking diffs and the portal axles and all, but buying one already assembled wouldn't be satisfying to me at all.

Which brings up another point about this Bruiser knockoff: they've taken away the most interesting part of buying a Bruiser: the build.

 

[GTodd]

This is going to be an expensive mounth! Amp just did a video on this. Apparently this is the 2012 Bruiser made by the supplier after the contract was done. 

Just discovered the Stealth Transmission conversion for the kingcab is still available, getting that, and just ordered all the parts to rebuild my childhood top force.

[TurnipJF]

1 hour ago, GTodd said:

Apparently this is the 2012 Bruiser made by the supplier after the contract was done. 

If this is the case, especially if it is being done so legally, then a lot if not all of the issues I have with this model fall away.

If the only real difference between this and a genuine Bruiser is the behind-the-scenes paperwork, then the only question I have is whether the supplier in question is abiding by the terms of their contract with Tamiya.

If they are, I see this as no worse than Tamiya continuing to produce Clod shells with the Chevrolet badges removed for example. It is still to all intents and purposes the same product. 

[qatmix]

The Bruiser is made in Japan, by Tamiya. So you are saying that Tamiya is selling it’s own things off, even though it’s still in production.  That’s nonsense.

HG has a history of selling clones, they have just got around to making another counterfeit product ☹️

Please just accept if for what it is. IP theft from Tamiya, that will cause some damage to the company. If you are fine with that then so be it, just don’t try to justify it as anything else.

[tamiya3speed]

44 minutes ago, qatmix said:

The Bruiser is made in Japan, by Tamiya. So you are saying that Tamiya is selling it’s own things off, even though it’s still in production.  That’s nonsense.

HG has a history of selling clones, they have just got around to making another counterfeit product ☹️

Please just accept if for what it is. IP theft from Tamiya, that will cause some damage to the company. If you are fine with that then so be it, just don’t try to justify it as anything else.

I would be more upset if it were to come out that that this company has been turning out the Bruiser rere's the whole time and Tamiya has been marking them as made in Japan.  I don't think that is the case though as it sounds like this company has a history of disregarding IP.

[EddScott]

Is it IP theft? More than likely.

Will it affect Tamiya sales? Very marginally.

Of all the IP theft going on in China (Lepin/Lego and for the photography buffs, the 3LT copies debacle) this will probably have the least effect to the company having it's IP stolen.  Imagine them selling Avante's for £150 how many of us would honestly say no? I'd have one just to save my genuine collection.

The Chinese knock off industry is vast and all but impossible to control. I think they actually have a specific word for it as it's seen as completely acceptable there and is part of the culture now. Almost like the knock offs are more sort after than the genuine articles.

[topforcein]

I

[Sayer]

So it turns out the LHS doesn't actually have any Grand Haulers in until next month....and that TRX4 is looking like a fantastic bit of kit.

[Terz1]

I've just seen the bruiser clone review by @Pintopower recently on youtube. It does seem to be a great bit of kit for much cheaper than tamiya sell so I think, bar the die hard tamiya fans if others did want a bruiser clone they will pick this one up instead of the original. To be honest though there are so many great crawlers/scalers out there I'm not sure who would buy it.

This is the first post I've done for a very long time. Like a lot on here I had tamiya as a kid, clodbusters, avante, boomerang etc and now I'm a bit older (cough ) I bought some more recently and loved them. This is a year or two on now since I bought some for my collection and I feel I want tamiya to go to the next phase. Like people have said there are so many great rc's out there now. Unfortunately I don't look to tamiya when I want a new kit now. I'm more into the scaler/crawler scene. For example the the trx4 bronco in black with sunset strip down the side looks amazing. That's not to mention the remote locking diffs and portal axles. They also do a kit chassis version too.  So the main thing that I enjoyed with my Tamiya which is the build process is now being offered by other manufacturers.

So come on tamiya catch up. I'll still be waiting 

[khyzersoze]

I started out with a bunch of Kyosho and Tamiya out of nostalgia.  Picked up a lot of the Kyosho reissues and some Tamiyas.  The Super Clodbuster was my gateway into the scaler/crawling world, and frankly... I haven't looked back.  Most of my purchases are GMADE, MST, Axial, Vaterra nowadays.  And they're all kits.  I just don't see anything from Tamiya that would be just as good in their lineup.  I have the CR-01 Bronco, but that thing won't come close to the performance of the others on the rocks.

[Juggular]

 

I've heard over the grapevines that China has a "leave your technology in China" policy (to paraphrase) when they allow foreign companies to manufacture in China.  I don't know how true it is.  Please enlighten me if you know something else. 

So, if I have a design for a simple drone, and I have it built in China, China will keep the technology in China.  And I get to produce cheaply, and if my market isn't China, I won't care.  That's the theory.  The key word seems to be "in China."  Meaning, producing and selling copies could be legal for Chinese domestic consumption only.  IF what I heard is true, probably selling it to foreign countries is the illegal part.  Enforcing that is tricky.  It's sold by small e-bay sellers who don't mind giving up his e-bay seller's ID and getting a new one the next day.  Manufacturers go into China knowing this risk, because building it in Japan would mean paying $7.5 USD, when Chinese workers get paid only $2 per hour.  

For a long while, Tamiya resisted it, by using housewives who'd work for $5 an hour instead of 7.5 as part-time workers in home garages.  They would get together after their husbands are off to work, and put 540 motors in plastic bags and tape them.  Tamiya would leave boxes of 540 motors and ESCs at 10AM.  They would come gather A bags, B bags, C bags, etc at 4 O'Clock.  Ladies would close the garage and go do groceries for supper that evening.  (I've seen a documentary, but I don't know if it was Tamiya)  In the end, you have to go to China too, if you want to compete with Chinese companies like Dragon or MST (MST is Taiwanese though).  

On the note of Tamiya not paying attention, I'm with @Pintopower   Tamiya could have made a 5-speed gearbox with sound effects.  Or tracks like those aftermarket ones.  Or driver figures with moving heads, scale bodies with doors that open, and windows that roll down.  But sadly, Tamiya doesn't even want to invest in a new driver figure.  In the 80's, Tamiya would never let clever cars like TRX-4 to come out from any other company but Tamiya.  TRX-4 came out last year?  What does Tamiya do?  Raise their price so TRX would look more attractive.  

Higher Minimum Ad Pricing is baffling.  It benefits the Chinese.  In an ironical way, this could be a good thing for the RC field in general.  Tamiya is basically giving smaller companies a breathing room--room to grow.  More companies will pop up, creating more competition.  Consumers get better stuff cheaply.  Sadly, MAP could be bad for Local Hobby Shops, and Tamiya's market share in US will shrink.  That's sad because I'm still a fan of Tamiya...    

 

[GTodd]

With a wife and three kids I can't justify 800 on a toy. I'm ordering this, using the decals from my bruiser I converted to a Mounty and going to go to town on it. Scale shocks, soft springs, rc4wd wheels. She'll be a beast. I'm curious if the bruiser rere trans case will fit this rerere 

 

[pininfarina]

 

The average person in China would not be able to afford the original Bruiser at all... and cost too much for them to get one...

so a clone to them may be a better option.

[racer1]

Just bit the bullet and ordered one of these.  Should be here in a week.  Will post pics once it arrives. 

 

 

[Aleblanc]

mine arrived yesterday, i'll be digging into it shortly.

[speedy_w_beans]

China is consistently evil when it comes to IP theft.  If there's any question about this fake Bruiser being an illegal copy of the real article, take a look at:

Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power:  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/22/technology/china-micron-chips-theft.html

Rude, red awakening: China’s theft of U.S. tech is hard to stop:  https://www.axios.com/china-intellectual-property-ip-theft-trade-war-48c62145-e574-4674-a0ce-47b9a06f95ce.html

The bottom line: America’s chipmakers go to war vs. China:  https://www.axios.com/semiconductor-chip-industry-ip-theft-china-micron-samsung-f51935b5-ccce-4836-b956-84d1e56e93db.html

China is willing to steal anything and rule in favor of itself in its courts with the goal of making the world dependent on it.  It simply doesn't believe in a level playing field.  It's doing damage to a lot of businesses that make the initial investment in R&D, and it's doing damage to consumers who get lower-quality products.

China's economic war is the precursor to a political war fought through a military war.  They are shameless and ambitious, and should be kept in check.

[ncpantherfan71]

2 hours ago, speedy_w_beans said:

China is consistently evil when it comes to IP theft.  If there's any question about this fake Bruiser being an illegal copy of the real article, take a look at:

Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power:  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/22/technology/china-micron-chips-theft.html

Rude, red awakening: China’s theft of U.S. tech is hard to stop:  https://www.axios.com/china-intellectual-property-ip-theft-trade-war-48c62145-e574-4674-a0ce-47b9a06f95ce.html

The bottom line: America’s chipmakers go to war vs. China:  https://www.axios.com/semiconductor-chip-industry-ip-theft-china-micron-samsung-f51935b5-ccce-4836-b956-84d1e56e93db.html

China is willing to steal anything and rule in favor of itself in its courts with the goal of making the world dependent on it.  It simply doesn't believe in a level playing field.  It's doing damage to a lot of businesses that make the initial investment in R&D, and it's doing damage to consumers who get lower-quality products.

China's economic war is the precursor to a political war fought through a military war.  They are shameless and ambitious, and should be kept in check.

Speak the truth Speedy!

A bruiser is out of my price range, but I would never purchase a Chinese knock-off.  That company didn't spend the time to design, test, or do the legal thing and pay Toyota for the right to use their name.  Every time a person purchases any knocked-off product, the nail is being slowly driven into the original company coffin.  Many companies have felt the negative impact and there are untold numbers of people who are selling knock-offs as genuine.  It got so bad with Castle Creations motors, they had to place a warning on their web page.

[Fuijo]

8 hours ago, pininfarina said:

The average person in China would not be able to afford the original Bruiser at all... and cost too much for them to get one...

so a clone to them may be a better option.

A lot of us are into this hobby because we dreamed of owning what we simply couldn't afford, and therefore couldn't have, as kids. Hence Tamiya releasing the reissues.

As far as I'm aware, a ludicrous sense of entitlement was never an excuse for theft of either physical or intellectual property, or knowingly being a party to, or indirectly encouraging that theft.

The more people who turn a blind eye because they feel they must have X, the worse off we'll all ultimately be.

There aint no such thing as a free lunch.

 

[Pintopower]

Here is something I was not aware of. I just brought this truck vs Tamiya up to our company lawyer and our director of engineering. According to them, in the USA (obviously different countries mean different policies) a product can be “Made in the USA” of a minimum value of the product was made in the USA. For example, if the contents of the transmission of the Bruiser were made and assembled in Japan and the cost of that was $300, Tamiya could say the truck is “Made in Japan” of the rest of the Truck cost $300 or less where ever else those parts were made. I also brought up the cost to make the Bruiser in Japan. The consensus is, with the limited knowledge we have of Japanese MFG costs, labor costs, materials and so on, the cost of the genuine Bruiser is not possible to be 100% “Made in Japan”. This means that the company making the KO bruiser may actually be the contract manufacturer who has made all of the Bruiser 2012 versions. This explains the different transmission as that could be a locally made Tamiya item. Again, this is all speculation based upon legal manufacturing company practices in the USA and in no way legalizes or validates the KO version. I am mentioning this as the quality of the KO looks too good to be a copy and everyone keeps telling me the Tamiya Bruiser says “Made in Japan” on the box of the RERE. I assumed it was the Philippines but the same rules apply. I wish Tamiya would release a statement instead of yet another CC01.

[Thumper959]

There’s a gentleman on YouTube (Tuan Bui Anh, just look for “HG P407 review”) who seems to have taken one apart partially.  Too bad I don’t speak Vietnamese but there are some decent views of the internals if curious.

[markbt73]

55 minutes ago, Pintopower said:

Here is something I was not aware of. I just brought this truck vs Tamiya up to our company lawyer and our director of engineering. According to them, in the USA (obviously different countries mean different policies) a product can be “Made in the USA” of a minimum value of the product was made in the USA. For example, if the contents of the transmission of the Bruiser were made and assembled in Japan and the cost of that was $300, Tamiya could say the truck is “Made in Japan” of the rest of the Truck cost $300 or less where ever else those parts were made. I also brought up the cost to make the Bruiser in Japan. The consensus is, with the limited knowledge we have of Japanese MFG costs, labor costs, materials and so on, the cost of the genuine Bruiser is not possible to be 100% “Made in Japan”. This means that the company making the KO bruiser may actually be the contract manufacturer who has made all of the Bruiser 2012 versions. This explains the different transmission as that could be a locally made Tamiya item. Again, this is all speculation based upon legal manufacturing company practices in the USA and in no way legalizes or validates the KO version. I am mentioning this as the quality of the KO looks too good to be a copy and everyone keeps telling me the Tamiya Bruiser says “Made in Japan” on the box of the RERE. I assumed it was the Philippines but the same rules apply. I wish Tamiya would release a statement instead of yet another CC01.

That's definitely a possibility. It has been that way in the 1:1 car world for years. And yes, I wish Tamiya would clarify (and while they're at it, explain the MAP decision).

But it also has to be pointed out that even if the castings are "real," that doesn't mean that the metal alloy is the same quality as Tamiya's. Lots of things that are made of "Chinesium" (as I've heard the cheap alloys called) look fine, but wear faster, or fail under load.

[Juggular]

7 hours ago, speedy_w_beans said:

China is consistently evil when it comes to IP theft.  If there's any question about this fake Bruiser being an illegal copy of the real article, take a look at:

Inside a Heist of American Chip Designs, as China Bids for Tech Power:  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/22/technology/china-micron-chips-theft.html

Rude, red awakening: China’s theft of U.S. tech is hard to stop:  https://www.axios.com/china-intellectual-property-ip-theft-trade-war-48c62145-e574-4674-a0ce-47b9a06f95ce.html

The bottom line: America’s chipmakers go to war vs. China:  https://www.axios.com/semiconductor-chip-industry-ip-theft-china-micron-samsung-f51935b5-ccce-4836-b956-84d1e56e93db.html

China is willing to steal anything and rule in favor of itself in its courts with the goal of making the world dependent on it.  It simply doesn't believe in a level playing field.  It's doing damage to a lot of businesses that make the initial investment in R&D, and it's doing damage to consumers who get lower-quality products.

China's economic war is the precursor to a political war fought through a military war.  They are shameless and ambitious, and should be kept in check.

That was very informative, Speedy.  

Chinese government is raiding US, Japanese, Taiwanese and Korean factories in China?  To steal technology in disguise of anti-trust inspections?  That's so Chinese.  

We are just random Joes, individuals who can't speak to the Chinese government.  But as the articles point out, our governments can talk to the Chinese government.  Government is there to protect rights and laws, isn't there?  But what are we doing?  America is too busy fighting steel imports from Canada!  Taking photo ops with North Korean leader, is important too, I guess.  Just saying North Korea is not a nuclear threat doesn't make it so.  

Chinese are even building artificial islands for naval bases in the Philippines, and they harass US planes by tagging them with laser.  Chinese navy has built a base even at the horn of Africa. This is a choke-point of Suez canal.  Does US government even realize China building a military base in Africa?  Or are they too busy "saving money" by withdrawing forces from Korea, Japan and Philippines and hand influence to China? 

Someday when the world is dominated by China, Trump will say it's all fake news.  He'll claim he stood up to China.  We should get our acts together and pressure China to follow the rules.  Last time when China was playing with currency, US repeatedly asked them to let the market control the currency, and eventually, they did.  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-obama-currency/obama-says-china-must-stop-manipulating-currency-idUSTRE49S7FQ20081029 

Chinese steal and cheat, but they seem to dislike the image of being an evil empire.  Which means, US government can make repeated appeals, and China could follow the international rules.  There were some cases IP was protected already, weren't there?  But US companies are still raided by the Chinese government.  Why isn't the US government saying anything?  Sometimes all we have to do is speak.  "Mr. Xi, what are your intentions? Are you an honorable man, who would keep his word about IP rights? Do you want Chinese companies' IP rights to be respected? Then respect ours."  That could be all it takes to protect the international law.  Too bad, our government doesn't seem to know what the problem is, so little guys like us debate how wrong all this is.  

 

[Saito2]

1 hour ago, markbt73 said:

And yes, I wish Tamiya would clarify (and while they're at it, explain the MAP decision).

I guess we could try emailing them . I did about the MAP decision since I've gotten reasons ranging from Tamiya trying MAP in countries it's legal in, to Tamiya USA is behind it all, to something connected to Trump tariffs. Here's the response I received :

 

Dear Tamiya Customer,

 

Thank you for your question/comments regarding our MAP Policy.  However, Tamiya America's Customer Service Center is not permitted to discuss MAP Policy, questions must be submitted to MAP_Policy@Tamiya.com.

 

I did resubmit the question as suggested but have yet to receive a reply. I imagine it would be much the same if we inquired about this mysterious Bruiser clone.

 

 

[speedy_w_beans]

• MAP:  Browsing some familiar international sites to see what Tamiya kit pricing looks like, I can't say there are any differences between a few months ago and now.  I'd love to hear the answer from Tamiya Japan if they get back to Saito2.  At least one Tamiya tank retailer in the USA has stated they have to advertise at MAP, but will still sell kits at the same prices they always have.  This suggests TamiyaUSA and Tamiya Japan are not collecting any more money, but the policy serves a different purpose.  An example of a MAP policy (NOT TAMIYA's):  https://trade.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Trade-Account-MAP-Policy-May-2017.pdf

• Country of Origin:  At least for the USA, https://www.cbp.gov/trade/rulings/informed-compliance-publications/marking-country-origin-us-imports states:

Does altering the article in a second country change the country of origin? 
The country of origin of an article may be changed in a secondary country if one of the following occurs: 

1. If the further work or material added to an article in the second country constitutes a substantial transformation. A substantial transformation occurs if a new article with a different name, character, and use is created.
2. For a good from a NAFTA country: if under the NAFTA Marking Rules (19 CFR Part 102) the second country is determined to be the country of origin of the good; or
3. For an article considered to be a textile or apparel product (regardless of whether it is a good from a NAFTA country): if the country of origin is determined by the general rules set forth in 19 CFR Part 102.21 to be the second country. For purposes of determining whether a textile or apparel product is from Israel, the general rules in 19 CFR 12.130 apply.

Just a quick survey of the kit boxes I have at the moment, the country of origin varies.  It seems the less expensive kits, like Lunch Box, FAV, Mad Bull, and TT01E Racing Truck all have "Made in the Philippines" on their boxes.  The more expensive kits, like TB EVO 7, RM01 Tom's 84C, and F104W Wolf WR1 all say "Made in Japan."  The USA-market TRF801X buggy box says "Made in Taiwan."  I suppose it's possible some parts could come from China or the Philippines in a "Made in Japan" kit, but that kit would need "substantial transformation" to be considered made in Japan.  How much is considered substantial?  Hard to say.  I trust the majority of the material, labor, and value of the kit actually comes from the country stated on the box.

• How the Chinese think:  I read this book for business 10-15 years ago; take a look inside and read pages 3-8.  It was a real eye-opener given how westerners conduct business with each other:  https://www.amazon.com/Asian-Mind-Game-Unlocking-Westerners/dp/0892563524/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8