Oh Dear.... (Bruiser clone)

[ncpantherfan71 134]

As I said earlier in the thread, Tamiya does NOT see an increase in profit from the MAP change.  I do not know why they added a MAP policy in the US, but most companies do have the same policy. I also found out this change did not come from Tamiya USA,  but from Tamiya Japan.   

If you want a Tamiya kit,  go talk to you local hobby shop and see what they will do for you,  minimum advertised price is what can be shown,  not what a shop can sell it for. This helps the brick and mortar shop.  Give them a chance to earn your business.   I cannot guarantee they will price lower,  but I bet many will. 

[Juggular 5234]

1 hour ago, speedy_w_beans said:

• How the Chinese think:  I read this book for business 10-15 years ago; take a look inside and read pages 3-8.  It was a real eye-opener given how westerners conduct business with each other:  https://www.amazon.com/Asian-Mind-Game-Unlocking-Westerners/dp/0892563524/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8

 

That was informative as always, Speedy.  Poor fox breeder!  

Also, the following Sun Tsu thing still reminds me how the Chinese love to cheat.  It's like they just WORSHIP tactics, mind games, and trickeries of all kinds.  They kinda lose themselves in the play of things and they forget that there is a bigger picture.  (i.e., they can also get hurt by IP theft.)

I don't think Japan and Korea were this bad when they were getting to be where they are.  I've heard of them dumping (selling things under cost).  But their governments didn't help their companies steal.  If the Chinese keep stealing, they just become a thief-nation.  But what could you say to a nation that sells fake milk and kills their own children?  They are literally poisoning each other to make few more cents.  Is it any wonder their government helping Chinese companies steal?  (while our government says nothing! Ugh!)

 

 

[Juggular 5234]

3 minutes ago, Juggular said:

  Is it any wonder their government helping Chinese companies steal?  (while our government says nothing! Ugh!)

 

"is" got left out. Sometimes I can't edit...

 

[Fuijo 943]

Personally I see China as a bit of a Red Herring in this discussion. Nobody would bother manufacturing counterfeit goods if nobody bought them.

There will always be somebody somewhere who is willing to break rules/laws for a quick buck. For them to be successful requires customers to be complicit.

[magnumb 254]

I would have never have bought this truck if not for the price and i've now purchased several other items from RRP and Ebay and some of those being Tamiya parts. Somehow Tamiya came out ahead on this deal:)

[pininfarina 1009]

7 hours ago, Fuijo said:

A lot of us are into this hobby because we dreamed of owning what we simply couldn't afford, and therefore couldn't have, as kids. Hence Tamiya releasing the reissues.

As far as I'm aware, a ludicrous sense of entitlement was never an excuse for theft of either physical or intellectual property, or knowingly being a party to, or indirectly encouraging that theft.

The more people who turn a blind eye because they feel they must have X, the worse off we'll all ultimately be.

There aint no such thing as a free lunch.

 

 

It is IP theft for sure, can't urge with that...

even if Tamiya re-releasing these reissues... they just can't afford it... maybe one day ...

look at what APPLE did to China workers... 

everyone knows very well China's issues still they still do business in China.. and have them made in China? because it's cheaper?

I think Tamiya have been  avoiding making in China? mostly in Malaysia, Philippines... but maybe some electronics are from China? 

I might be wrong.

[Juggular 5234]

2 hours ago, Fuijo said:

Personally I see China as a bit of a Red Herring in this discussion. Nobody would bother manufacturing counterfeit goods if nobody bought them.

There will always be somebody somewhere who is willing to break rules/laws for a quick buck. For them to be successful requires customers to be complicit.

You are right, of course.  Same goes for drug addicts and bad politicians.  If there is no consumption, there won't be any drug problem.  If there is no support for mean politicians, the world could be a bit better place.  I am not defending the Chinese company.  But there could be a legal loophole (or an agreement) Tamiya will not plug.  I certainly cannot blame folks who are loyal to their wallets.  Yes, China could be Red Herring.  It's actually Tamiya.  Please consider what Tamiya did.  $600 was a tough sell, $1000 is almost impossible to justify to most wives.  

If Bruiser were $400. I'd pay $80 more and get a genuine from a LHS.  Tamiya already recuperated the design cost in the 80's.  The actual material cost of production could be as little as $60.  With shipping to LHS, the cost could be $100.  But they imposed MAP of $1000.  Now there is a price-vacuum.  Naturally, something fills that vacuum.  It could be a Chinese knockoff, Red Cat, MST or some new Traxxas truck. 

Again, I'm not condoning knockoffs.  But WHAT IF Tamiya got a good deal on the manufacturing cost in 2012, in exchange for the rights to sell trucks later in 2018?  As long as things like the transmission block and the name were not copied?  Tamiya could have bet on the low sales of the no-name brand, and signed the deal.  If that were the case, Tamiya already profited from the future sale of (permitted) knockoffs.  And what if, to distinguish itself from the copies they knew were coming, Tamiya raised the MAP in 2018?  (overactive imagination is a side effect of reading a lot of zombie novels... you end up imagining all sorts of scenarios, some of which could be dead on... it comes with terrible puns too...)

 

 

[Fuijo 943]

You're going to have to help me out here because I'm not following your logic.

3 hours ago, Juggular said:

It's actually Tamiya.  Please consider what Tamiya did.  $600 was a tough sell, $1000 is almost impossible to justify to most wives.  

Tamiya probably isn't aware of your wife's limit (plus a little bit) on a single item purchase for your hobby. You personally can get a Bruiser kit for 580 Euros plus postage - hardly a 1000 dollars.

You can't get a new Ferrari for 400 dollars either. Does that mean Ferrari are pricing their cars too high?

Tamiya can charge whatever they like for their products. You can either afford it or not. It really isn't their problem as long as they are selling enough units to cover their costs. And if they

are, then it isn't too expensive is it?

 

3 hours ago, Juggular said:

If Bruiser were $400. I'd pay $80 more and get a genuine from a LHS.  Tamiya already recuperated the design cost in the 80's.  The actual material cost of production could be as little as $60.  With shipping to LHS, the cost could be $100.  But they imposed MAP of $1000.  Now there is a price-vacuum.  Naturally, something fills that vacuum.  It could be a Chinese knockoff, Red Cat, MST or some new Traxxas truck. 

How on earth do you know if Tamiya have recovered their R&D costs? As far as I'm aware they don't make that information public. It's certainly very common for full size car companies to take a hit on their

flagship models, because they help promote the rest of the range. Either way, I don't see how that makes counterfeit goods acceptable.

 

 

3 hours ago, Juggular said:

Again, I'm not condoning knockoffs.  But WHAT IF Tamiya got a good deal on the manufacturing cost in 2012, in exchange for the rights to sell trucks later in 2018?  As long as things like the transmission block and the name were not copied?  Tamiya could have bet on the low sales of the no-name brand, and signed the deal.  If that were the case, Tamiya already profited from the future sale of (permitted) knockoffs.  And what if, to distinguish itself from the copies they knew were coming, Tamiya raised the MAP in 2018?  (overactive imagination is a side effect of reading a lot of zombie novels... you end up imagining all sorts of scenarios, some of which could be dead on... it comes with terrible puns too...)

But it seems like you are in cases where you can't afford the real deal.

There are a lot of what-ifs, but all you need to know is on the box. If it was kosher and approved by Tamiya then it would say so. That way they would not only get customers that don't care about

supporting the counterfeit industry, but also those that do.

 

[Blista 1622]

I can't afford the Bruiser (for now at least) but I wouldn't buy one of these.  Buying a fraudulent product doesn't appeal and supporting someone selling knock-offs probably does harm in some way even if it's not through a lost sale.  Tamiya clearly have an agreement with MST to supply bodies so they must be trying to find new ways to keep money coming in.  Someone selling clones of their products won't help things.

[Sayer 763]

16 hours ago, Fuijo said:

 

Tamiya can charge whatever they like for their products. You can either afford it or not. It really isn't their problem as long as they are selling enough units to cover their costs. And if they

are, then it isn't too expensive is it?

This is incorrect. Specifically Tamiya can charge whatever they want and either you can afford it or you can't and you can buy this knockoff. This is very much their problem and if the Chinese are in fact the cackling thieving monsters they're portrayed to be in this thread - then legal aid isn't going to be forthcoming. 

 

16 hours ago, Fuijo said:

How on earth do you know if Tamiya have recovered their R&D costs? As far as I'm aware they don't make that information public. It's certainly very common for full size car companies to take a hit on their

flagship models, because they help promote the rest of the range. Either way, I don't see how that makes counterfeit goods acceptable.

Honestly if Tamiya is still paying for the R&D of a slightly tweaked 30yr old model released 6 years ago, they need to take a long hard look at their business model. The bulk of their models are reworked old designs. TT01s TT02s and CC01s to stone dogs. It's far more likely that they're using the sales of those cheaply mass produced models to fund the new chassis mentioned up thread.

Console companies generally take a hit on their consoles intending to recoup cost and make profit on game sales, but even those games once they've been out for long enough, have their prices slashed drastically.

Whether we think it's acceptable or not has absolutely no effect on the fact that the counterfeit truck is on eBay right now. Our outrage counts for nothing at all. People in this thread have bought it. People who love Tamiya and the Bruiser enough to frequent a message board dedicated to the brand. We can be snide and we can sling mud, but the problem remains.

[ncpantherfan71 134]

Tamiya has released newer designed the last couple years.  M07, TA07, Evo7,  TRF 419, dancing rider. 

Most newer designs have been onroad, I don't think off road is as popular in Japan. 

[Juggular 5234]

17 hours ago, Fuijo said:

You're going to have to help me out here because I'm not following your logic.

Tamiya probably isn't aware of your wife's limit (plus a little bit) on a single item purchase for your hobby. You personally can get a Bruiser kit for 580 Euros plus postage - hardly a 1000 dollars.

You can't get a new Ferrari for 400 dollars either. Does that mean Ferrari are pricing their cars too high?

Tamiya can charge whatever they like for their products. You can either afford it or not. It really isn't their problem as long as they are selling enough units to cover their costs. And if they

are, then it isn't too expensive is it?

 

How on earth do you know if Tamiya have recovered their R&D costs? As far as I'm aware they don't make that information public. It's certainly very common for full size car companies to take a hit on their

flagship models, because they help promote the rest of the range. Either way, I don't see how that makes counterfeit goods acceptable.

 

 

But it seems like you are in cases where you can't afford the real deal.

There are a lot of what-ifs, but all you need to know is on the box. If it was kosher and approved by Tamiya then it would say so. That way they would not only get customers that don't care about

supporting the counterfeit industry, but also those that do.

 

4

4

I am usually flexible.  I'd say I'm wrong when I'm wrong.  Yes, if Tamiya wants to be Ferarri, and charge $200,000 for one Bruiser?  Whatever they want to charge is their business.  If Tamiya isn't aware what's acceptable for my wife, they should be.  There are industries researching on what customers can afford.  

On R&D cost on Bruiser.  @Sayer put it so well, lol...  

I did not say "Counterfeit is acceptable," or "let's support the counterfeit industry."  I tried to say that there could be an agreement that I don't know about. (or legal loopholes)  Wouldn't I be silly, because I was avoiding to buy it and unbeknownst to me, Tamiya had taken a deal and given a legal permission?  

I can't really feel bad for my spending limit or what my wife would think is reasonable.  That would feel too much like bowing down to big corporations' whims.  Fuijo, you sound like an upstanding guy.  It's admirable that you are trying to protect what you think is right.  And I am not disagreeing with you at all.  If it's not a permitted copy, it should be taken off the market to protect IP rights of companies who put the hard work in.  But usually, it doesn't come across as a nice thing to say when you insinuate what people can't afford.  Hobby expenditures can be linked to how much people make.  That's why I don't try to guess what people can afford.  We are all just a bunch of guys who love the same thing, aren't we?  Most of us would even help out each other by sending little parts to fellow TC members.  Certainly, that doesn't mean that we have to agree on everything.  But I agree, if I knew it's not a permitted copy, it shouldn't be sold.  But not knowing that, I'm not going to comment on each member's decisions.  

What I know is that MAP pushed Bruiser out of reach for me.  This higher MAP is leaving a price gap in the market where legitimate and illegitimate competitions are springing up.  For the sake of Tamiya, I think it would be better to lower the prices and don't leave any room for the competition.  That way, competitions would be forced to cut corners to lower the price.  They'll end up making bad quality stuff, while Tamiya can produce good stuff.  And people could afford real Tamiya too.  But Tamiya decided to do the opposite.  According to @Pintopower, the transmission sounds better than the original.  Why?  Perhaps because Tamiya left a large gap in price, so smaller companies can spend money on their R&D.  It's Tamiya's decision, of course, not mine.  I can either support and not support Tamiya.  On MAP price of Bruiser?  I admit I can't afford to. 

Will higher MAP make Tamiya a Ferarri of RC brands?  If a $320 copy's transmission sounds better than a $1000 Bruiser?  I doubt it.  

 

[Swarm 242]

Really it comes down to splitting hairs .

If licensing or copyright comes into play then those companies directly affected are the ones who would do something about it if it infringes on anything they have .

it is what it is - those who are savvy enough know the longevity of cheap knock-offs especially those from a certain country in Asia .

Everybody seems to have valid points and most who frequent this site are passionate about this hobby -but proof will ultimately be in the pudding , it’s not worth getting flustered over.

At the end of the day I’ve always believed in you get what you pay for in regards to quality.

Feel the love guys .

[Fuijo 943]

6 hours ago, Sayer said:

This is incorrect. Specifically Tamiya can charge whatever they want and either you can afford it or you can't and you can buy this knockoff. This is very much their problem and if the Chinese are in fact the cackling thieving monsters they're portrayed to be in this thread - then legal aid isn't going to be forthcoming. 

It is not incorrect. You've quoted out of context. The price of the Bruiser can only be set based on covering the costs of building it, plus a profit margin of whatever they think the market will bear.

They cannot possibly give those things a lower priority than trying to compete with illegal copies made using cheap or even free labour in dubious working conditions.

 

6 hours ago, Sayer said:

Honestly if Tamiya is still paying for the R&D of a slightly tweaked 30yr old model released 6 years ago, they need to take a long hard look at their business model. The bulk of their models are reworked old designs. TT01s TT02s and CC01s to stone dogs. It's far more likely that they're using the sales of those cheaply mass produced models to fund the new chassis mentioned up thread.

But you've no idea at all really have you? Because you're not privvy to that information.

 

6 hours ago, Sayer said:

Whether we think it's acceptable or not has absolutely no effect on the fact that the counterfeit truck is on eBay right now. Our outrage counts for nothing at all. People in this thread have bought it. People who love Tamiya and the Bruiser enough to frequent a message board dedicated to the brand. We can be snide and we can sling mud, but the problem remains.

Whether we think it's acceptable or not may not change the fact that the truck is on ebay, but has absolutely everything to do with whether it sells or not. So our outrage, or lack thereof, counts for everything.

There's no snidiness or mud slinging from me. I've made my opinion crystal clear, and strongly objecting to people supporting a counterfeit industry doesn't count as mud-slinging.

I'm really shocked at how many people who apparently love Tamiya's Bruiser are happy to buy this. Our defenitions of love clearly differ.

 

4 hours ago, Juggular said:

I am usually flexible.  I'd say I'm wrong when I'm wrong.  Yes, if Tamiya wants to be Ferarri, and charge $200,000 for one Bruiser?  Whatever they want to charge is their business.  If Tamiya isn't aware what's acceptable for my wife, they should be.  There are industries researching on what customers can afford.  

They do of course. But at the end of the day if they had pitched the price way too high, then not enough would be sold, so they would have to reduce the price until they find the

sweet spot between selling enough units and making sufficient profit per unit to make the whole thing worth while.

4 hours ago, Juggular said:

I can't really feel bad for my spending limit or what my wife would think is reasonable.  That would feel too much like bowing down to big corporations' whims.  Fuijo, you sound like an upstanding guy.  It's admirable that you are trying to protect what you think is right.  And I am not disagreeing with you at all.  If it's not a permitted copy, it should be taken off the market to protect IP rights of companies who put the hard work in.  But usually, it doesn't come across as a nice thing to say when you insinuate what people can't afford.  Hobby expenditures can be linked to how much people make.  That's why I don't try to guess what people can afford.  We are all just a bunch of guys who love the same thing, aren't we?  Most of us would even help out each other by sending little parts to fellow TC members.  Certainly, that doesn't mean that we have to agree on everything.  But I agree, if I knew it's not a permitted copy, it shouldn't be sold.  But not knowing that, I'm not going to comment on each member's decisions. 

I'm not insinuating anything. You told me what your budget was. I don't get why pointing out that not everyone can afford everything is not a nice thing to say. It's just reality. Always has been, always will be.

There seems to be an assumption that people should have a god given right to have whatever they want regardless of price. And if a company has the audacity to price something out of reach of someone

who wants it, then having to spend well outside their comfort zone in order to get it is somehow bowing down to big corporation's whims. To me that seems absurd, unless there's something I'm missing here.

4 hours ago, Juggular said:

What I know is that MAP pushed Bruiser out of reach for me.  This higher MAP is leaving a price gap in the market where legitimate and illegitimate competitions are springing up.  For the sake of Tamiya, I think it would be better to lower the prices and don't leave any room for the competition.  That way, competitions would be forced to cut corners to lower the price

Ah ok, I was assuming you meant Cheltenham in South West England. I forget that almost all the UK's town names will be duplicated in the US. There's probably a counterfeit joke in there somewhere.

But in order for Tamiya to compete with illegitimate competition they would have to become illegitimate themselves, and they wouldn't be able to do that anyway while operating in Japan.

What you ask of them is simply not possible. Protected workers will never be able to compete on price with unprotected workers.

[Jason1145 4688]

Do you think most of the people who do end buying this truck might not even be aware of the Tamiya Bruiser, if they are new to the hobby and don’t research things too much, so they are buying it purely from today’s price point in comparison to similar priced trucks, of which this one looks like it stacks up pretty well.

People on RC  forums generally know their stuff so it’s up to them to decide if they want in or not, personally I’ve no issue with it... Tamiya were too expensive for me as a kid so I missed out... atleast today’s kids in my position might get a shot at a decent truck as long as they don’t care about brand boastability.

[Sayer 763]

7 hours ago, Fuijo said:

It is not incorrect. You've quoted out of context. The price of the Bruiser can only be set based on covering the costs of building it, plus a profit margin of whatever they think the market will bear.

They cannot possibly give those things a lower priority than trying to compete with illegal copies made using cheap or even free labour in dubious working conditions.

The statement stands. Not being privvy to Tamiya's strategies and internal workings cuts both ways. Again, if as has been stated up thread China is happy to turn a blind eye to these counterfeits and no prosecution is forthcoming, what the market will bear is much different from what it would have been without this model.

 

7 hours ago, Fuijo said:

Whether we think it's acceptable or not may not change the fact that the truck is on ebay, but has absolutely everything to do with whether it sells or not. So our outrage, or lack thereof, counts for everything.

There's no snidiness or mud slinging from me. I've made my opinion crystal clear, and strongly objecting to people supporting a counterfeit industry doesn't count as mud-slinging.

I'm really shocked at how many people who apparently love Tamiya's Bruiser are happy to buy this. Our defenitions of love clearly differ.

My point was that our outrage will not affect sales. People here who should be outraged are purchasing and reviewing the product. There are threads elsewhere where people who aren't gathered together out of a loyaty and love of Tamiya are quite happy about finally being able to purchase a Bruiser. No one who is "being loyal to their wallet" will be convinced to stay away by tales of plastic rice and fake milk.

I am not surprised. It's the whole reason copyright and counterfeit laws exist. The consumer cannot be counted on to stay away from the knockoff ( especially if it's cheaper ) in large enough numbers that it doesn't harm the sales of the original manufacturer.

[Juggular 5234]

Yes, Cheltenham is in US and in New Zealand too.  Logically speaking, even if I were living on Mars, facts won't change.  

Fuijo's whole argument is right IF it is Indeed a counterfeit.  Then we should avoid buying it.  The logic is in two parts.  1) It's a counterfeit.  2) Counterfeit should be avoided to protect IP and workers, etc.  I agree with #2.  I'm not 100% sure about #1, because of various deals corporations could make. 

If I worked for Tamiya, and if the Chinese factory owner offers to lower the production cost from $60 per Bruiser to $40?  I'd take that deal directly to Mr. Tamiya himself.  It's the Chinese workers who'd get paid less. Or it could be the factory owner who produces under cost. (taking a loan from their bank, while going into the red)  In exchange, Tamiya can give away the rights to sell chassis and the body 6 years after the re-release.  

Say that Tamiya would sell 10,000 kits in 2012, 8000 in 2013, 6000 in 2014, etc... And the Chinese one is going to be a no-name brand and to use the gearbox of their own questionable design.  To compete with 1000 Bruisers expected to sell in 2018?  $20 more profit for 10,000 kits for the first year alone would be $200,000 in extra profit.  $160,000 for the next year.  $120,000 for the year after.  Even if we lose half the sales of 1000 kits expected to sell in 2018, that'd be a loss of $300,000 at $600 per unit.  hmmm... First 3 years alone, we'd be saving $480,000. We'd still make $180,000 after $300,000 loss.  Maybe it's worth it to sell the rights and get the immediate profit.  Why don't we put in in the contract to see the production sample of the Chinese copy?  If their transmission is well made, we might lose more than half the sales.  If that's likely, we'll raise the price so can make up for the lost profit.  Win-win for Tamiya.  The corporate Risk, Productions, Sales, and Accounting would do this kind of calculation all the time.  

Do I know this has happened?  No, absolutely not.  I don't work for Tamiya.  But I know all kinds of deals happen.  Even if I were working for Tamiya, I won't tell you Tamiya allowed this.  That'd be helping the competition, wouldn't it?  "Yes, it's a legitimate copy with a different transmission."  Everybody will buy it.  It's to Tamiya's benefit that people think it's not allowed.  It would be so easy for Tamiya to say, "no we never allowed this."  Why won't they?  Because it will be too much of a headache if they open the door for conversation.  If they raise MAP, people like @Saito2 will be asking questions.  If by any chance they made a deal with the Chinese factory, Tamiya will have to confirm the deal.  Better let people speculate.  Since I don't know, if a TC member buys one, I'd respect their individual decisions.  

For MAP, Tamiya can't compete if the price is lowered?  That would be true for new designs.  For old designs like Bruiser?  I think Tamiya has an edge because there is little or no R&D costs.  I wish Tamiya lowered the price to crush competitions.  If Tamiya sold rights, and then lower the price on Bruiser to crush the Chinese competition?  That'd be a very effective (and nasty) move.  It could guarantee that Tamiya would never be welcomed in Chinese factories later.  Maybe the lawyer for the Chinese saw that possibility and put it in the agreement not to lower the price of Bruiser.  In which case, Tamiya can't go lower.  But they could raise the MAP to distinguish themselves from the copies they allowed.  

 

[magnumb 254]

If the trans is anything like the other knockoffs being put out by China then it should be decent. If this was a piece of medical equipment or gun i'd stay away, but these are only toys after all. I also wondering if it's just the case was changed and the internals are of the same design???

[Sayer 763]

The reality is none of us have any concrete idea of Tamiya's inner workings. We have no idea why the Bruiser is priced the way it is or why the MAP was instituted. We've all got theories that are biased in no small part due to our current feelings toward the state of Tamiya.

The existence of this offering that isn't the cheap Chinese garbage we wished it was (complete with updates that we've been clamoring for from Tamiya) for a much reduced price point raises questions. The answer to those questions may very well be "poor worker conditions / free slave labour etc" or they may be something else. I want to know what that answer is because personally I'm not content with the "I'm sure Tamiya have their reasons" defense.

[Biz73 603]

Should the Blackfoot re-re be avoided because it is a Ford truck shell that Tamiya removed the name from and stopped paying royalties for?

[Snappy1 1006]

I really don't want to be involved in the back and forthing, what I am surprised about is the length of time it has taken for this vehicle to be released, IF it was made on the original moulds I would have thought Tamiya would have repossessed the genuine moulds immediately after manufacturing had been completed, which tends to make me think it was made in a night shift situation, 

 This company has sat on parts or completed units for 6 years, that doesn't sound like a normal counterfeit situation to me, was a deal struck and a time period placed on a release date?

I find it odd that Tamiya would be involved but the length of time indicates otherwise , or are HG just trying to lessen Tamiya's anger?

[Fuijo 943]

 

I seem to be the only one that holds the consumers, rather than the companies, responsible for this trend of seeking out ever cheaper labour to provide consumers with ever cheaper products.

I found out a few days ago for example, that some Harley Davidson motorcycles are now made in India amongst other places. Only one reason for that - cheaper labour.

So I'm striking one of those off my things-to-own-before-I-die list, because it just isn't the same if it's not made in the US, at least to me.

That's a few jobs that Americans have lost because they are deemed too expensive. Shame.

As far as I can see there's only one way the west can compete, and that's to erode worker's rights and pay. I have a sneaking suspiscion that is one of the motives behind brexit, but that's a whole other topic,so

I'll leave it at that.

Time will tell I guess.

Still, I think the writing is on the wall now and it's inevitable anyway.

 

It seems to be getting pretty lonely in my corner, so to avoid wearing out my keyboard fruitlessly I'll bow out now.

 

EDIT: I meant to include this earlier but forgot -

On 6/24/2018 at 4:19 AM, Swarm said:

...............you get what you pay for...................

It's only recently I've come to appreciate the scope of this phrase. Far more than just the immediate -  the product you receive in return for your money, but also

the much longer-term consequences of our spending habits. Our children will get what we pay for........

[yogi-bear 2771]

1 hour ago, Fuijo said:

I seem to be the only one that holds the consumers, rather than the companies, responsible for this trend of seeking out ever cheaper labour to provide consumers with ever cheaper products.

sadly this is the world we live in, where we are encouraged at every turn to buy the latest and greatest, but to also get the best deal. When people want, but can't afford, they'll look for alternatives. 

1 hour ago, Fuijo said:

I found out a few days ago for example, that some Harley Davidson motorcycles are now made in India amongst other places. Only one reason for that - cheaper labour.

Again, for good or bad, this is the world be live in. I bet there are few large manufactures who don't outsource to where there is cheap labour, because a company can't compete if they don't. And those countries that have the greatest excess of people who are desperate to work will get exploited the most. Yet ironically, the best way to help these people is to give them work, which means buying the products they make. For many of these people, its either do the cheap, soul destroying labour or go back and be a peasant. This benefit by exploitation is evident that as China has grown as a manufacturing powerhouse, they now have a steadily growing and now large middle class. It was similar with Japan in the 60s, 70s and 80s. That doesn't make the exploitation is right, but how else do you pull 100s of millions of people out of poverty?

I could go on, but thats getting deeper than I intended or is really suitable for this thread, so I'll stop there. I think my point was that you see this as a very black and white issue, but I think there are lots of shades of grey.

 

[Sayer 763]

1 hour ago, yogi-bear said:

sadly this is the world we live in, where we are encouraged at every turn to buy the latest and greatest, but to also get the best deal. When people want, but can't afford, they'll look for alternatives. 

Honestly, this is the world we've always lived in. It's built right into the market. When a customer haggles with a vendor selling apples in a market, it's the same thing. The objective of the customer is always to get the best value for the lowest price and the the objective of the merchant is to provide the good or service while ensuring the most profit for themselves.

 

1 hour ago, yogi-bear said:

It was similar with Japan in the 60s, 70s and 80s. That doesn't make the exploitation is right, but how else do you pull 100s of millions of people out of poverty?

This is kind of why I'm not jumping on the bandwagon of China as cackling monsters. There are plenty of manufacturers that we happily purchase from who use China as a factory. The shoes I'm wearing right now, ostensibly a Japanese brand (Onitsuka Tiger) have "Made in Indonesia" printed on the tongue. Things have had "made in China", "made in Taiwan" and "made in Japan" stamped on them since I was a child, and it wasn't too long ago that "made in Japan" meant trash in the same way "cheap Chinese quality" means now.

Here's an informative read on how this kind of cycle repeats

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/adventure/red-line/the-rise-of-japan-how-the-car-industry-was-won/article27100187/

Specifically this excerpt:

Back then, Japanese car makers were known mainly for their habit of ripping off designs from other manufacturers. Toyota's first passenger car, the 1936 Model AA, was a blatant copy of Dodge and Chevrolet designs, and some parts could actually be interchanged with the originals.

1 hour ago, yogi-bear said:

I think my point was that you see this as a very black and white issue, but I think there are lots of shades of grey.

Agreed.

[RichiPuppy 42]

On 6/25/2018 at 4:26 AM, Fuijo said:

 

 

It's only recently I've come to appreciate the scope of this phrase. Far more than just the immediate -  the product you receive in return for your money, but also

the much longer-term consequences of our spending habits. Our children will get what we pay for........

 

If that is the case than what does the $300 plus more I would pay now for a Bruiser over when I bought a Bruiser and Mountain Rider thanks to the MAP get me?  I always had to purchase my kits through mail order do to LHS prices and lack of support for Tamiya but I at least had the option of buying through companies in the US.  I guess now Hong Kong will get my mail order business.