Tamiya prices at Tower/MAP Pricing

[Saito2 6686]

3 hours ago, nowinaminute said:

My point was that Traxxas invested in some good designs that are sturdy and perform well off road

Depending on how you look at it, its the "good designs" part Traxxas got right. Tamiya doesn't bring out new designs they just need better ones to compete with Traxxas. How long has Tamiya been riding the CC01 horse? The DT02? The WT/WR series? No innovation, just the same chassis over and over with a new body. Not to say the don't try new things like the Dancing Rider but the previously mentioned models cruise along as Tamiya's bread and butter. 

Traxxas was smart in the fact they gradually upgraded those old but good and solid core designs. Tamiya just pumps out the same chassis. The modular WT/WR 2wd/4wd concept is great and all, but the 2wd version will never reach Stampede performance. The DT02 is a great buggy but hobbled with limited pinion choices. 

In the end, none of this matters though. I don't think Tamiya is really going after the Traxxas demographic. They don't care. They don't have to. I agree, streamlining the product line with good solid designs that can sell AND perform well for decades is smart, but why bother when the Tamiya faithful are still gobbling up the ancient Clod Buster design from '87 with no development. Oh, except now we're supposed to pay over $100 more for that same Clod after June 1st. Sure. Right. I completely agree, Traxxas is smart and know their customers well. Tamiya just marches to beat of their own drum. That's awesome but infuriating at times. 

[nowinaminute 2815]

3 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Depending on how you look at it, its the "good designs" part Traxxas got right. Tamiya doesn't bring out new designs they just need better ones to compete with Traxxas. How long has Tamiya been riding the CC01 horse? The DT02? The WT/WR series? No innovation, just the same chassis over and over with a new body. Not to say the don't try new things like the Dancing Rider but the previously mentioned models cruise along as Tamiya's bread and butter. 

Traxxas was smart in the fact they gradually upgraded those old but good and solid core designs. Tamiya just pumps out the same chassis. The modular WT/WR 2wd/4wd concept is great and all, but the 2wd version will never reach Stampede performance. The DT02 is a great buggy but hobbled with limited pinion choices. 

In the end, none of this matters though. I don't think Tamiya is really going after the Traxxas demographic. They don't care. They don't have to. I agree, streamlining the product line with good solid designs that can sell AND perform well for decades is smart, but why bother when the Tamiya faithful are still gobbling up the ancient Clod Buster design from '87 with no development. Oh, except now we're supposed to pay over $100 more for that same Clod after June 1st. Sure. Right. I completely agree, Traxxas is smart and know their customers well. Tamiya just marches to beat of their own drum. That's awesome but infuriating at times. 

This is the problem I think Tamiya is beginning to face.

If your strengths are nostalgia and novelty, that's a limited pool and the nostalgia part especially is a finite market, people can only buy an RC from their childhood once and generations before or after are going to have no emotional attachment. 

It's not even like the Traxxas designs are earth shatteringly advanced. There's not a million miles between a WT and a Stampede really, it's only really subtle design differences that happen to have a pronounced effect. They are both double wishbone off road trucks made from plastic. There's a lot of commonality between the Stampede, Slash, Bandit, Rustler etc so it's not even like each design is totally unique and necessitated the wheel being reinvented each time. Tamiya could build stuff like this and still be able to share tons of parts around between models to save costs.

Tamiya could carry on making all the classics and novelty items etc but I think they could definitely benefit from some kind of new multi purpose platform, they still have the whole self build thing as a differentiator, I think Traxxas only do a kit for their scale rock crawler?

They could push it as a modular system, multiple motor mounting locations, the option of having twin motors, FWD/RWD/AWD choose whether to build a buggy/truggy/monster truck/desert racer ice cream van.....anything you wanted. Just because it has competent handling with more powerful motors doesn't mean it has to be boring. You could even make it easy to add another another axle to make 6wd 8wd 10wd any kind of crazy thing you wanted. 

Some people think that making a better driving chassis means that it would be inherently less soulful but I don't see why it has to be really. Likewise, I think people less familiar with Traxxas sometimes perceive them to be more complex that they are, they really aren't that advanced for the most part, especially the most popular models, they are just decent bashers that handle power and speed a little better 

[kevinb120 64]

Considering a $2 Johnny lightning has full Ford licensing and is a decent toy, I would expect the 'new improved' priced $190 Blackfoot version to be a full on RE-release kit now.  And all releases to now have their proper sticker sets back. It averages me about $50-100 extra per RE-release kit to turn it into a proper RE- creation.

If tamiya is going to 'whip it out' on us they better man-up about it to keep my respect and my dollars flowing.  TBH the rereleases do have a bit of a Chinese clone feel with them skimping  on licences.  They were still laughing all the way to the bank at the discounted prices on our desire for nostalgia, who else in a 'tech' hobby can break out tooling from 40 years ago and still sell all they can make.  

[moffman 5752]

This has really got people's backs up (very understandably) over the pond!  in the UK I haven't seen any shop announcing this MAP or similar European version and my regular (modelsport) shop everything is as was so to speak! But it does beg the question the powers that be (our wise leaders that know best) bang on about one global trading world and us in the UK have the lovely Brexit to deal with and how when we leave European union we can do our own deals with e.g. USA and the German car manufacturers will still want to sell us their cars etc etc! Yeah right! America with the steel tariff and the tax on the bombardier airplanes most of the German car manufacturer's signing new deals with the likes of Australian and far eastern investors and governments and although this tamiya MAP thing is one very small thing in the global oddness that's happening at the moment, just remember that the great depression worsened because of a trade war that started over the most unlikely thing "eggs" so called smoot-hawley act so this might look insignificant but me thinks something very strange is going down globally and its' all going to be the fault of all our wonderful WORLD leaders! and quess who's going to reap the benefits?

[Biz73 603]

So is this a worldwide thing? Or just US?

[TurnipJF 9192]

Judging by online prices, so far just the US had been hit, only time will tell regarding the rest of the world...

[Biz73 603]

Their announcement said as of June 1st, so I'm guessing it's US only.

[iluvmud 812]

1 hour ago, Biz73 said:

Their announcement said as of June 1st, so I'm guessing it's US only.

Doubt it’s just the US, why just screw us when they can screw the whole world.....

[TurnipJF 9192]

1 hour ago, iluvmud said:

Doubt it’s just the US, why just screw us when they can screw the whole world.....

Because some party's off the world won't let them apparently, if this post across on britmodeller.com is to be believed:

"The EU rejected allowing MAP in 2015 in response to a petition from an Austrian MEP"

 

  Quote

Where an agreement includes resale-price maintenance (RPM) provisions, it is presumed to restrict competition within the meaning of Article 101(1) TFEU. While there remains a possibility for companies to plead an efficiency defense under Article 101 (3) TFEU to justify their agreements, the arguments put forward need to be very convincing, as there is a presumption that the conditions of 101 (3) TFEU are not fulfilled for such restrictions.

 

Not allowing RPM is beneficial to consumers and warranted by a number of considerations. Resale price maintenance may facilitate collusion between different suppliers by increasing price transparency on the market and making deviations from agreed prices easier to detect. It may soften competition between manufacturers and/or between retailers and lead to higher prices for consumers. It can also reduce dynamism and innovation at the retail level. Conversely, absent RPM consumers can benefit from price competition between different distributors of the same product and are enabled to obtain better value for money.

 

While MAPs leave the final decision on what price a retailer charges to the retailer, they aim at influencing retail prices by limiting the possibility of retailers to inform potential customers of available discounts. A key incentive for price competition between retailers is removed. Retailers will not be able to attract additional consumers by advertising lower prices. Advertising is an important element of the competitive process as it increases the information available for consumers. Retailers will frequently have no incentive to deviate from the minimum advertised price. Therefore, MAPs will likely amount to a restriction of competition within the meaning of Article 101(1) without any credible efficiency defense under Article 101(3). The Commission has analyzed restrictions on advertised prices in a case where they formed part of a wider strategy of influencing retail prices by manufacturers and concluded that such agreements have the object of restricting or distorting competition3 . While no case law exists yet, it can be expected that MAPs, when analyzed on their own, would also be considered to constitute (indirect) RPM and thus a by object restriction.

[TurnipJF 9192]

* parts of, not party's off. Not sure why but the forum won't let me edit the previous post to current the typo...

[Juggular 4964]

If Tamiya wants to experiment to see if they get "respect" by jacking up the price, why not?  Consumers will decide.  Mr. Tamiya might toss other maker's kits at retailer's faces (wow, really?), but it's not like Tamiya is the only maker of defibrillators.  They are selling products used for fun.  My life does not depend on Tamiya.  I had a 15 year gap, so see you in 15 years again, Tamiya!  

All jokes aside, this seems suicidal.  As Kevinb said, Dragon and other Chinese makers are making very good model kits.  Now Dragon can toss Tamiya's kits to retailer's faces!  Does Tamiya really want to drive buyers to Chinese sellers?  There are companies like MST and Red Cat that build their own designs without copying Tamiya's stuff.  It doesn't seem like it's a good time for Tamiya to raise the price when other companies can easily catch up.  

If I were in Tamiya marketing, my advice would be "raise the quality (or novelty) and then raise the price."  "Hi, we are Ford!  We would like some respect from you people, so we are going to jack up the price 30%.  Don't worry, our cars are exactly the same!  No improvements!" 

 

Is the "entitlement" thing going around the world?  Everybody is saying, "we are the best, everybody else is the worst, so all must pay tariffs?"  When we think we are the best, we tend to be the worst.  Such attitude is contagious, and it's not for the better.  We can't make cell phone batteries without rare minerals from China.  We sell medications, medical equipment and high-end stuff to the world.  My Libertarian friends believe the idea of "lone wolf" thing, but wolves are not lone animals, neither are we. Humans are group animals like bees and ants.  No baby is born with a language.  Every one of us had to learn to speak by being in contact with other humans for years. Yep, group animals.  I have a couple tank kits from ICM, my dollar partially pays for groceries of Ukrainian workers, and if a Ukrainian TV company buys rights to air Desperate Housewives, that dollar comes back to U.S.  To win in trade, we have to offer more attractive products (that goes for Tamiya too).   

North Korea has successfully built walls, a million soldiers guarding their borders.  I've heard that North Korea was wealthier than South Korea back in the 60s.  Now, North Korea is the poorest country.  Their walls did wonders for them.  On the other hand, South Koreans trade with the world, and they do well for themselves (I think our freezer is LG).  Instead of crying foul, Chevrolet should spend a few million dollars for Italian car designers and sell great looking cars.  I think Hyundai's old cars in the 90's were designed by Italians who designed cars for Ferrari.  Koreans got that right.  Their cars were not reliable, but they spent money on a good design.  Later on, as they built better cars, they issued 100,000 mile warranty.  So their cars are pretty, reliable and relatively inexpensive.  No wonder we buy their stuff!  If Chevy wants to use cheap designers, we can't force-feed ugly Chevy to Koreans.  Sell Chevy Volt to Japan?  They've got Prius.  So we get mad and put tariff on steel.  GM, Ford or Chevy will be more expensive and less competitive.  How about Toyota or Hyundai factories in US?  They might say, "well, steel is too expensive, so we'll move the car factories to Canada, where steel is cheaper."  Politically, Tariff sounds good, "yeah, everybody must pay!"  But tariffs could send factories to Canada or Mexico, and we lose our jobs.  I hope Tamiya's MAP isn't based on simplistic ideas like Tariffs, "yeah, raise the price, we'll be rich!"  Well, Tamiya could lose their jobs too.  

 

[gordb 121]

Unless this directly affects Tamiya's margin (and my guess is it does not), it is pretty hard to understand how this helps them. On the flip side, the potential down-side seems well represented in this thread, and the idea you can police pricing in an internet era where price fixing isn't legal in many countries feels optimistic.

I obviously don't have any insight into how much of Tamiya's revenue is tied to their own online store, vs 3rd party online stores, vs brick and mortar shops ... but given the market is shrinking and many of us buy most things online anyway - I think it would be interesting to go all-in on a direct digital model. One big Tamiya store, prices that aren't artificially high, and worldwide shipping.

I do realise this wouldn't be great news for many online re-sellers - but a) the idea that you make a living by being able to survive on lower margins than someone else is likely just helping the industry go under faster, and b) I wonder if long-term, it might be good news for the health of Tamiya, and consequently, our access to new models and spare parts in the longer term. 

 

[Saito2 6686]

The opposing viewpoint I was "given" at another website said this price gouging was a good and fair thing. The basics of the argument were:

1. This is the same thing Traxxas did and is good because it levels the playing field for the smaller retailers (LHS, etc.) who couldn't compete against the big retailers.

2. Due to this "level playing field", these other retailers (the ones that couldn't compete with the big ones before) will now pick up and sell Tamiya cars and this will broaden Tamiya distribution network so they can move even more product.

I couldn't, for the life of me, understand these arguments. Traxxas did do this, but they set the price of their vehicles right at where they naturally sold at beforehand. The only real result was places like Tower couldn't offer coupon codes on Traxxas products. Tamiya didn't just set a fair price for all, they jacked up the price considerably. Some say this is great because now everybody will win with more money in their pockets, Tamiya, big retailers and small retailers alike. Furthermore retailers of fine Tamiya products will supposedly suddenly start offering better service and increased replacement parts inventory to lure us to them since price will no longer be a factor. Right. EVERYBODY wins!...except the customer.

Now a Tamiya customer is a Tamiya customer and a Traxxas one is a Traxxas one but... if someone from the US wants to give say, an RC monster truck a shot...and here's a Stampede complete with radio battery and charger, and here's a Blackfoot without those items for more money...do you think they'll will be tricked into thinking the Blackfoot is better simply because its high price? Does anyone think a US brick and mortar shop that happily slings Traxxas products (because they sell and have good customer service) will suddenly pick up a bunch of "now even more" expensive Tamiya vehicles just because Tower or Horizon can't sell them for cheaper? Give me a break.

[OldSchoolRC1 984]

I've been buying Tamiya RC kits from Tower for years. I enjoy the build more than anything, so it's buy a kit, build, display or run it lightly, sell, repeat. I've built easily 100-150 kits over the past 25 years, and usually have anywhere from 20-30 in the shop at any given time.

Now, I can absolutely deal with the elimination of the discounts - no problems there. But the price increases on top of it are an absolute gut punch to us long time Tamiya builders. Just as an example, CR01 kits are now $500+, Hilifts are $630+, and the Bruiser kits are now well over $1000.  Some of the prices have gone up as much as $50%. I love Tamiya's charm, nostalgia factor, and the "we do it our way" take on their modern kits, but at those prices they've put themselves out of reach.  Even some of the TT02's are closing in on $200 now, and frankly there's just better kits of there for less - charm or no charm.  Price isn't everything, certainly, but it is a factor.   

[theshopkeeper 39]

On 6/3/2018 at 9:52 PM, iluvmud said:

Doubt it’s just the US, why just screw us when they can screw the whole world.....

Can't do it in the UK, it's very very illegal to do any more than suggest a retail price here.

Some model rail brands (Bachmann and Hornby spring to mind) do TRY to limit discounting to a maximum of 15% off RRP, but even then the only way they can dance round the very very strict penalties that the UK Competition Commission would otherwise dish out is to strongly "suggest" that maximum discount should only be during the first 60 days after product release "to enable the product to settle on the market".  I personally think it's borderline iffy even then, but no one has actually challenged it legally because it's only a couple of months and products in model rail tend to continue to sell for some years, so there's plenty of time to sell at whatever rate the dealer fancies - to the extent that some dealers hold back new releases for a couple of months.

 

[Juggular 4964]

On 6/6/2018 at 10:21 AM, theshopkeeper said:

Can't do it in the UK, it's very very illegal to do any more than suggest a retail price here.

 

 

That's a good point you brought up.  MAP used to be illegal.  It would be too tempting for manufacturers to get together and price-fix, Godfather-style.  But now, "bilateral Minimum Advertising Price" is legal at the Federal level. But CA and NY still consider MAP illegal. (State laws can be stricter than federal laws--like California emission laws).  If Tamiya were to have a real MAP, Tamiya will get sued in CA and NY.  But Tamiya's so-called MAP seems to be a unilateral policy not sell to retailers Tamiya doesn't like. 

Even if it were a "real" MAP, Tamiya can't force the price, because MAP is "advertising" price only.  Enforcing actual price (like how Internet Hobby claims) is still very much illegal.  Even with real MAP, retailers can actually sell at slightly less price.  As a proof, Tower Hobbies still has the universal 10% discount.  (I wish Tower had more discount just for Tamiya).  

Tamiya may actually want retailers to discount: "Sure, Tower, give 10% discount.  But we will sell kits to you at higher prices.  Take it or leave it.  To protect your own profit, if you want to re-negotiate with Red Cat or MST to sell you their stuff at lower prices, that's fine by us.  You want to give 20% discount for Tamiya kits?  But we still won't lower our price.  Which means you might have to force Traxxas to sell you stuff at lower prices too, if you don't want to lose your own profit.  Go ahead, make my day, Punk!"  Tamiya talks of preventing "brand erosion" but, what they want is to erode other brands.  

Competition is fine. My problem is how Tamiya is doing this abruptly without considering consumers.  1) Tamiya didn't add any value.  If they started to add brushless motors to all of their RC from now?  Then, the higher price is reasonable.  But they ship kits with silver cans with all plastic parts, and they just want more $$$?  Tamiya doesn't come out looking good.  2) Even if they wanted to raise the price a bit, they could have been subtle about it, like 5% up in 2018, 10% in 2019, as they add value to their kits (even trinkets like extra stickers, wings, rubber shielded bearings).  The way they've done it?  It looks like "Brand tantrum."  That's a good recipe for "Brand Anger" from consumers.  

I got a re-start on Tamiya last year, because I was looking at MST CMX on youtube.  It was at about $240.  But I found Montero Wheelie sold for $120 on sale, so I got that instead of MST.  Then I got Bigwig, Gravel Hound, Blackfoot, Zahhak, and Konghead.  Tamiya ended up selling 6 kits to me, because Montero Wheelie was so cheap.  Tamiya shouldn't ignore the "gateway drug" effect of cheap RC.  I wouldn't yield the precious gatekeeper position to Red Cat, if I were Tamiya.  Children can buy Red Cat, and in 20 years, they'll have the nostalgic value Tamiya is enjoying now.  

While I'm not happy with Tamiya, I still hope Tamiya doesn't end up like Marui.  (I wonder if there is a Red Cat, MST, or Traxxas spy in Tamiya, trying to collapse Tamiya from within...)  

 

[theshopkeeper 39]

11 hours ago, Juggular said:

 

 "Sure, Tower, give 10% discount.  But we will sell kits to you at higher prices." 

 

That is actually the legal way the UK distributors have got round it in the past before they cottoned onto the "60 days to settle the market" idea.

Most firms have a trade price and a retail price.

If the firm decided to only have a retail price and give the dealer a discount off retail price, but omitted to actually state that discount in their terms and conditions, you could conceivably have a "problem" dealer only getting a nominal discount making it impossible to sell below a certain discount level, and a non-problem retailer could be given a much bigger trade discount.  It's a way around price control, more legal than enforcing a price policy and one that is very very hard to prove as rarely will a dealer have sight of another dealer's invoices....

[Biz73 603]

"Oooh, look, the price went up! They cost more so they must be good. I'm going to buy one now." Maybe that's a good marketing plan in Japan, but I can honestly say that I have never heard that out of a shoppers price here in the US. Novak & LRP didn't go out of business in recent years because they weren't quality products. People are buying up cheaper products from Hobbyking, and that is what gets recommended all the time.

Also, it's hard to claim "superior product" when you use plastic bushings at this point. That's a toy grade item at best.

[Zxcvb1t 0]

Tamiya's move really confuses me. I don't know a lot about their plastic models' business but I have been extensively running their on road touring cars. For sure their manuals are very well written and contents are neatly packaged. However, outside their own championship series, most of their chassis are uncompetitive if drivers are not well skilled and know how to setup their cars. For the price of a TA07R, 3racing's offering is much more attractive and competitive out of the box.  TRF chassis are awesome but they are suffering from lack of parts support, which is the last thing a racer wants to see. For their 419 chassis, it is possible to purchase the lower deck, upper deck and shock towers as spare parts. However, the 419xr lists them as 8 digit parts, which requires custom orders and is really annoying. Not to mention how expensive these chassis has become. T4 and BD8 are more affordable than a 419 x w, which is really ironic considering Yokomo and XRAY are already over 500 dollars. Lastly, some of the designs really need an update, leaky gear diff from tb series, suspension mounts that are really expensive to keep a set for racing. The point is, if they want their products to stand out of the competition, please update the design, ensure the parts availability while maintaining their flavor. It is really unacceptable to price a ta07 pro at the price where you can buy 2 or more chassis from other companies that designed closer to the top level chassis.

[yogi-bear 2321]

I think this decision by Tamiya is confusing because everyone looks at it from the viewpoint of an RC enthusiast or company. This is a crazy move for an RC company, but Tamiya is not an RC company. Tamiya is a model company that also makes RC, and while I don't know the numbers, I would wager models and related products far outweigh RC sales, model making is definitely Tamiya's DNA. This can be seen in the manuals for RC, they are detailed like a model instruction guide. Also how many other RC manufactures offer detailed ABS or Styrene bodies like Tamiya do? I bet not many.

When looking at other RC cars, as far as I can tell, they are all pretty much made by companies that pretty much solely manufacture RC cars, for these companies RC is their DNA. Thats why I think you'll never get good racing options from Tamiya, especially at the low end. Racing will matter more to companies who are much more focused on RC.

I still think Tamiya's decision is crazy though. I think they should be more like Lego. Lego in the late 90s, early 2000's were having huge sales drops, and rising completion from cheap knock offs. But they managed to win customer dollars by offering a much better quality product (even as Lego clone products got better, you can still tell the difference), Lego offer more variety through franchise deals BUT just as importantly they also directly engaging with the customer. Lego will send kids free magazines, here in Australia, Toy'r'Us would do free lego builds. You can download a Lego designing app and you can also submit your own builds which other people can vote on. If its popular enough, Lego will produce it as a kit. Plus there are the numerous Lego tv shows and movies. My son and I are avid Lego fans would not even consider other manufactures, we have gone there and its just not worth it, no matter how cheap.

Can Tamiya do all that, probably not, but I can't even see them trying and if RC is not their core business, they may not even care.

[d4dawg 35]

On 6/1/2018 at 11:02 AM, tamiya_1971 said:

I asked Tower, here is the response:
Thank you for contacting Tower Hobbies.

MAP (MINIMUM ADVERTISED PRICE) is a policy that some manufacturers implement to establish the lowest prices at which retailers and other resellers are allowed to advertise their products.

Tower Hobbies just received (and put into effect) this regulation from Tamiya. This is the reason for the higher pricing than what existed for us previously.

We appreciate your patience and understanding

I may have missed it, but was there some sort of announcement before the new pricing was implemented? If not, I believe Tower missed an opportunity to get some potentially large amount of orders in before the new pricing took effect. I, for one, would have placed my order if I knew this was coming. Now I'm just gonna wait, or go to eBay.

[tamiya_1971 615]

18 hours ago, d4dawg said:

I may have missed it, but was there some sort of announcement before the new pricing was implemented? If not, I believe Tower missed an opportunity to get some potentially large amount of orders in before the new pricing took effect. I, for one, would have placed my order if I knew this was coming. Now I'm just gonna wait, or go to eBay.

Yeah, it would have been nice to know. Nothing I had seen in this forum or others.

One other jab at Tamiya, if you are going to raise your prices to sky high levels, maybe keep parts in stock. If you want to be seen as a quality brand, KEEP PARTS IN STOCK,  at least at Tamiya USA.  Tamiya USA tells me to "see your local hobby store". My local hobby store stocks one Tamiya car, the Hornet.  I'm tired of having to scour ebay and every hobby shop online to find a part. I can find a Traxxas/Losi/Associated part in seconds. Tamiya parts? Nope.

[TWINSET 1793]

Off-topic (Trump) discussion removed, please discuss it elsewhere.

[Zaskarkid 0]

Looks like the paint is map too.  I used to be able to buy it for less then towers full retail price, but now the other retailers have to sell at map too.  

[chazekxt 7]

[Threads merged]

I see the hornet and grasshopper price's went up some any body know why?