Slipper clutch design for TA01-02

[Muvro 22]

Hi all, I've been designing a slipper clutch setup and diff upgrade for the TA01-02 platform and have contacted MIP about it. They have shown an interest in it and wanting to see how much interest it has to see if it's a viable project.

The gearbox will have a slipper clutch and 48 pitch spur selection. At the moment I have been setting it up with a belt drive, because I don't have 3D computer design and printing abilities to make a gearbox to accommodate an idler gear. This is something that MIP would nut out, I personally think the use of a standard TA03 diff gear with different modern diff outdrives and a modern style slipper is the go. I am wanting the gearbox to appear as standard as possible on the outside. 

If you have a Manta Ray, or a Top Force and are interested in this project, or have any ideas or questions, please post them up here. Also if anyone has any ideas on where to post this to reach a wider audience please let me know.

[Juls1 1718]

If it can fit inside using a standard 06 module without mods I’ll take 3 straight out. But I fear you’ll have little interest in a severely altered arrangement. In a ideal world you’ll make a gear with the slipper arrangement inside, but that’ll be a fresh design project. Many years ago there was a company that did exactly that for the ff01. Which is a similar gear. 

[Muvro 22]

45 minutes ago, Juls1 said:

If it can fit inside using a standard 06 module without mods I’ll take 3 straight out. But I fear you’ll have little interest in a severely altered arrangement. In a ideal world you’ll make a gear with the slipper arrangement inside, but that’ll be a fresh design project. Many years ago there was a company that did exactly that for the ff01. Which is a similar gear. 

It won't be possible to make it fit inside a stock gearbox housing whilst using a large, modern slipper pad. It can be made to use a .6 module, however the availability of larger pinions is very limited and the largest I've been able to find is a 25t. Going to 48p would allow a much larger range of gearing options.

I envisage a drop in replacement gearbox, that will appear stock on the outide except for the adjustment nut for the slipper. Much like other Tamiya aftermarket options for example the stealth gearbox drop in for an astute/Kingcab platform. Or like someone recently designed, a gearbox for the Astute that takes Schumacher gearing and slipper, due to the limited availability of the TTC gearbox and the fragile nature of the stock box when using modern more powerful Brushless setups.

 

Presision did a spring loaded spur for the FF01 and the TA01-02, I have both, however, the spring isn't that strong. 

 

HPI also did a very small slipper for their RS4 range that went on the layshaft and allowed it to operate on one single belt.

 

i did look at trying to design a drop in replacement spur, but there just isn't the room available.

[Ann3x 222]

19 hours ago, Muvro said:

Or like someone recently designed, a gearbox for the Astute that takes Schumacher gearing and slipper, due to the limited availability of the TTC gearbox and the fragile nature of the stock box when using modern more powerful Brushless setups

That was me.

Actually a DF-01 slipper was one of my earlier projects. I tried to get a fit with the vanilla 0.6m gears and it's possible (but complicated). The setup I got to fit involved a traxxas mini-e revo slipper pad (small enough to not need much room in the housing) retrofitted onto the DF-01 spur with a hollow layshaft to allow the slipper to be tightened from outside the gearbox. Basically space is super tight - with proper manufacturer tolerances and materials like MIP, probably doable however.

Honestly tho, a new gearbox would be better, you could then fit a modern sealed diff, a proper slipper and also solve the issue with the gearbox lid lifting. 

Alternatively..... a simpler way to solve the slipper problem is via a slipper pinion.

[MICHAELs TopForce17 587]

Interesting.

[Calvino 25]

Hi Muvro, I think this is s great idea.

I'm a massive fan on the Manta Ray / Top Force and this is one of the main area that could really improve the car. I agree its probably better to go for a full new drop in gear box that looks the same or very close to the original unit. A new unit also gives you an option to tackle some of the other issues with the rear gear box including the lifting problem and drive cups etc. Maybe even a new motor plate giving a larger range of spur and pinion gears.
Do you have any more photos to look at? I'm keen to see the other side of the gearbox with the spring setup bevel gears and how the prop-shaft all sits together.
I would definitely be interested in a few of these units if they became available.

[GTodd 1569]

Yes please! Sign me up for two!

[Calvino 25]

Did you make any more progress with this at all? 

[slimleeroy 241]

I'll take 2

 

[Ann3x 222]

Get a slipper pinion. 

[Concorde 149]

I'm interested in picking up this project. I am in the process of re-engineering my Top Force to be competitive with modern buggies. The main limitation is lack of a slipper . You can see my progress in my other post. 

If a new gearbox were to be designed, what would the best diff type be? The standard ball diffs are fairly decent no? 

The main issue I can see with a new gearbox is the cost for the upgrade. A new multijet fusion constructed gearbox would likely retail at 50USD alone. Then another 50usd for the clutch assembly. Do you think people will pay for that? It would be very cool to have but I can imagine the market is tiny. 

 

[slydar 242]

1 hour ago, Concorde said:

I'm interested in picking up this project. I am in the process of re-engineering my Top Force to be competitive with modern buggies. The main limitation is lack of a slipper . You can see my progress in my other post. 

If a new gearbox were to be designed, what would the best diff type be? The standard ball diffs are fairly decent no? 

The main issue I can see with a new gearbox is the cost for the upgrade. A new multijet fusion constructed gearbox would likely retail at 50USD alone. Then another 50usd for the clutch assembly. Do you think people will pay for that? It would be very cool to have but I can imagine the market is tiny. 

 

There are more limitations on the Top Force than the lack of a slipper in reality. Depending or the surface they are an ok solution for vintage racing but the problem with producing parts to race the buggy is that there are now many more options for the re release cars than 10 years ago etc. Optima Mid, Schumacher Top Cat? And Yokomo 870c mere months away which surely means 91-93 YZ10 are in the pipeline. Still non of these cars can really compete with modern cars. A well set up and we'll driven one could circulate and not be embarassing, compete, no. 

[Concorde 149]

8 hours ago, slydar said:

There are more limitations on the Top Force than the lack of a slipper in reality. Depending or the surface they are an ok solution for vintage racing but the problem with producing parts to race the buggy is that there are now many more options for the re release cars than 10 years ago etc. Optima Mid, Schumacher Top Cat? And Yokomo 870c mere months away which surely means 91-93 YZ10 are in the pipeline. Still non of these cars can really compete with modern cars. A well set up and we'll driven one could circulate and not be embarassing, compete, no. 

I agree, the top force in not in the same league as the all out racers. However, its sort of the reason why I fancy "re-engineering" it such that it is. Durability, tunability and no slipper all need to be addressed. 

[Concorde 149]

Have you guys seen the Trickbits Yokomo Yz-10? They took that car and transformed it without losing the originality. Of course I am not expecting a re-worked Top Force to be race competitive with a modern 4wds. But there are guys running 89 Cougars with 6.5T motors, big bores shocks and keeping up with modern cars at club level. 

[Concorde 149]

Does anyone know if mods such as adding a slipper breaks the vintage racing rules? Presumably you can't modify excessively? 

[Saito2 7654]

Here's a post I made years back questioning how the Top Force did back in the day. Hope its of some use.

[slydar 242]

On 10/10/2023 at 8:25 PM, Concorde said:

I agree, the top force in not in the same league as the all out racers. However, its sort of the reason why I fancy "re-engineering" it such that it is. Durability, tunability and no slipper all need to be addressed. 

The link Saito2 has provided has some very good points from very knowledgeable users.

The slipper is not necessarily the main drawback. The main thing is the durability, this may or may not be a game-stopper, it just depends on the tracks/surface you plan to run on. The UK guys seems to go ok with the TF, but the tracks they run vintage on don't have a lot of jumps, other places in the world modern 10th track do, and that is going to be a big problem. There are many alu options that increase durability on the DF01, but you can never get around the fact that at the core, but gearbox's are the bulkheads, and they are just ABS, on top of which, the front tower is held in place with only 2 screws. You can buy all the Custom RC alu bits and that will solve most of the other problems, but that's quite a lot of money to spend on a car which was an inferior drivetrain+diffs, suspension geometry, etc, to a stock Optima. the front lower arm mount also loves to break, and once you upgrade to alu, then gearbox itself just breaks off the chassis plates, I am speaking from experience  

If on the other hand you have something like what we have at our club, which is a small, secondary track designed specifically for vintage cars, then yeah, a TF is an option. I can see where you're coming from, and I wholeheartedly can say it's a very satisfying process beating the AE's and Losi's with a Tamiya (I've done it, albeit with an Astute), but just trying to stress you need to be realistic about what's actually possible  

 

 

[Concorde 149]

Yes, I get and agree with what you guys say. There will always be limitations associated with the DF01. I guess my aim is to take it step further beyond what I have seen others do. It'll be interesting to see what we wind up with.

I do think one of the appeals of vintage racing is the ingenuity/variety on display and the different solutions people find to overcome limitations. Modern racing, in terms of the cars can be very uniform.   

 

[Concorde 149]

Have you guys seen the DF01s at the iconic vintage race this year? 

 

[Saito2 7654]

18 hours ago, Concorde said:

Yes, I get and agree with what you guys say. There will always be limitations associated with the DF01. I guess my aim is to take it step further beyond what I have seen others do.

I say go for it! I think your ideas of tying the front cover into the main chassis somehow are a good way to disperse load and impacts. At the rear, it would be nice to somehow incorporate separate rear arm mounts though the feasibility may be questionable.

[Concorde 149]

51 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

I say go for it! I think your ideas of tying the front cover into the main chassis somehow are a good way to disperse load and impacts. At the rear, it would be nice to somehow incorporate separate rear arm mounts though the feasibility may be questionable.

Separating the rear arm mounts. Would that be for serviceability due to breakages around the hinge pin? Or do you mean for tunability with toe-in and anti squat?

[Saito2 7654]

10 hours ago, Concorde said:

Would that be for serviceability due to breakages around the hinge pin? Or do you mean for tunability with toe-in and anti squat?

I was thinking both actually. I've run a tie bar across both lower hinge pins for added durability, not unlike what's found on the Super Astute. I've never broken a rear gearcase there, so perhaps the real benefit would be as a toe/anti squat tuning aid.

I'm trying to think of anything to add support or take load off the gearboxes. I imagine they are stressed hanging out there off the ends of the chassis rather than being supported by it. Being ABS/PC plastic only worsens matters. In a perfect world I'd start with the plastics being improved to a Kyosho-style glass fiber/nylon/PA type and then see how durabiltiy goes. Perhaps stronger plastics would be enough to offset the Top Forces structural compromises. As it is, the best we can do is better support what's there I suppose.

[wtcc5 5758]

I prepared and tested a TF on a modern astro turf track the whole summer and ironed out all problems. Most problems can be cured with max long screws and a support of the rear tower. Breaking spurs is still a major problem and can only be cured with a new rear housing design that has space for a slipper. I would be glad if a serious experienced company would go for that. On Fb there are groups, that would be more than happy to buy stuff like that. The sealed diff conversion was sold there also with a lot success. I know four or five guys who would buy a slipper without thinking in my circle.

[Concorde 149]

1 hour ago, wtcc5 said:

I prepared and tested a TF on a modern astro turf track the whole summer and ironed out all problems. Most problems can be cured with max long screws and a support of the rear tower. Breaking spurs is still a major problem and can only be cured with a new rear housing design that has space for a slipper. I would be glad if a serious experienced company would go for that. On Fb there are groups, that would be more than happy to buy stuff like that. The sealed diff conversion was sold there also with a lot success. I know four or five guys who would buy a slipper without thinking in my circle.

Interesting. Was your broken spur gears due to the lifting cover problem? Did run with the after market gear cover supports?

[wtcc5 5758]

From my experience, if the gear cover is undamaged an installed properly it makes no difference if you use the supports or not. The standard spurs (speed gear set) died in around the same timeframe. It just can’t take the loads in touch down situations.