Bye bye High Lift, reflecting on Tamiya innovations

[Saito2]

I said good bye to my High Lift as I continue to offload a good portion of my Tamiya collection. It made me think about Tamiya and their ability to innovate, but not keep up. One case that used to pop up in discussion was how Tamiya birthed the off road buggy explosion only to see first the Scorpion and then the RC10 take the concept and run away with it. Some may argue that Tamiya only cared for scale machines (which the SRBs were) but I point to the Super Champ (or even the Frog) as proof that Tamiya had some interest in competing, but I digress.

The High Lift seems generally hated nowadays which is a shame because it was very happily received by a HUNGRY market for scalers back in the day. Some may not remember that gold mine that the TLT-1 represented just for scale sized axles alone. Bending, then bisecting square tube to make frame rails was a practice. There was a thread about making leaf springs from cut up hack saw blades at one point on a different site. Tamiya answered the call with the HL. Some were saddened it wasn't the Bruiser reborn, but most were positive about receiving it.

Then Tamiya sat on it, resting on their laurels as competitors caught up and surpassed them with more realistic and superior products. After years of watching this, Tamiya's response was to drag out the Bruiser again. Unfortunately, the other offerings are simply better. I would never presume to understand their mysterious methods but for a brand I once loved, it would be nice to see something that's not another rehash of the old CC01. Thoughts on the subject welcome. 

[speedy_w_beans]

Actually, the lack of performance doesn't bother me much.  My tastes keep changing with time and I'd be excited to see "models suitable for radio control" make a comeback.  More hardbodies, licensed decals, light buckets always, interiors and cockpits, etc.  There's no point in Tamiya competing for racers or bashers at this point; they should play to their strengths and they risk losing even that with RC4WD and others nibbling away.

 I'm ready for the scale model companies to start releasing pan chassis that can accept the styrene bodies they mold in 1/24 and 1/25 scale.  It wouldn't be that hard to design a circuit board that is the pan chassis and has the motors, servos, and electronics all integrated into it.

I think the bigger topic for me is what does true scale performance look like?  How much accleration, braking, steering, articulation, etc should we see in models, and is it representative of the 1:1 vehicle?

Some guys like RC racers; some like models that can bash and take some punishment.  I think Tamiya should do something close to their roots and electrify some of those static model kits they have.  They have quite the portfolio of those.

[Blista]

I think Tamiya are in a tricky spot.  If they release newer models they've got to sell them in a crowded market.  There's so many scalers/crawlers from a wide range of manufacturers that a Tamiya might not get the sales numbers they need.

My conclusion as to why the CC01 hasn't been replaced is that the CC01 still sells and probably earns them a nice consistent income.  It appeals to people starting out or on limited funds because of a low entry price and it doesn't require a whole lot of extra parts or knowledge.  Experienced hobbyists still buy it as well, so it's quite well situated in the market.  If they release a CC02 it would essentially be a Tamiya version of an MST CFX/CMX.  To keep the price down to a CC01 level it probably wouldn't be as good as a CFX, and everyone would complain.  If they increased the quality and the price, they'd still have to sell the CC01 and now the new CC02 is fighting in a smaller and tighter market.

[Saito2]

54 minutes ago, speedy_w_beans said:

they should play to their strengths and they risk losing even that with RC4WD and others nibbling away.

My sentiments exactly. I just looked at the High Lift before I packed it up and shook my head. It was history repeating itself again. Not strictly in a performance sense like the SRB example, but in this case, a scale market sense. Tamiya's performance aspect has been up and down but their model roots should make them leaders in the scale realism game. Instead companies like RC4WD and even Axial are eating their lunch so to speak. 

[Juggular]

I hear you.  

I build tanks.  From 2018, they mold hatches onto the superstructures.  Simplifying stuff is fine, but having no hatches is like blackened windows of a static model car.  I want to see that it's a vehicle.  That's why airplane cockpits are important!  I digress...

Even as little as what Speedy said would be better.  80's Tamiya was all about little details.  Nowadays, most new stuff is soapy-detailed lexan.  Sure, it's cheaper, lighter, and stronger.  But I like how heavy-bodied Wild Willy or Blackfoot runs.  

How many versions of CC01 do they have?  15-18 of them?  I guess that's the point Saito2 wants to make?  CC01 came out in 1993.  During the 25 years, they couldn't add a 2 or 3 speed transmission like Bruiser?  Lockable diff on the fly like Traxxas TRX4.  Some clever things like that.  

I don't think Tamiya wants to try hard.  How about TLT2?  All you need are 8 longer links, and 2 longer dogbones.  I didn't like the half-open gearbox on TLT1 (dog hair gets in).  And ball diff in the center was too weak.  Right now, I have a milk carton cutout working like a friction pad instead of the diff balls.  It's better than before, but not great. Maybe they'll put in friction pegs just as one TC member suggested.  (I need to install them).  For a few more dollars, they can turn TLT-1 into a MST CMX like crawler.  They can put old Hi-Lux body and small tires on it.  I see missed opportunities like this all the time. 

It's like few wimpy off-road engineers would summon all their courage to voice their good idea once a year, and get shot down by the bigwigs of Tamiya: "Re-releases are bringing enough money, what's this nonsense about new developments! That takes extra money! I only want to hear what's next for rerelease!"   Tamiya is a publically traded company.  Profit is important. I get that.  But I want to see them try a little harder than maximum-milking of old stuff by re-releasing.  I mean, 8 link bars and 2 dog bones isn't hard for Tamiya, is it?  

 

On second thought, HiLux tires (I assume about 4" diameter), looks small.  I'd prefer something like 4.2 inches, but these are all I have...

 

 

 

 

 

[Fabia130vRS]

My view on Tamiya was always as a entry level manufactor, I got my first Tamiya at the year of 8, a DT01 Fighter Buggy, and the Tamiya Fighter buggy cup was the correct thing to associate Tamiya, a cup running only Tamiya same make.

 

Tamiyas touring car bodies, the realism having a Honda Accord actually with FF transmission.

I remeber HPI also in 1999 making a name for itsel were I lived with the HPI RS4 and the 200mm bodies. Honestly disappointed with the non realistic shapes. Tamiya is a no.1 for me in realism, and scale is what they should stick to.

 

I rather have a moving scale model then a static. And I think thats it all about. 

Tamiya has a big place on the market and the re-re keeps all those spare parts on the market.

 

I yesterday tried to locate some main parts of a Xray T1FK05' a model 12 years old... hard to find any.

 

My opinion is tamiya should stick to scale models of touing car champs, popular real life cars and details on their bodie.

That is what connects people, tamiya, but lately I dont see anything happening, no VW Golf 7, no Peugeot 208 GTI, no newer model cars. That is missing in my opinion.

[yogi-bear]

I've only just gotten into CC01's so I'm happy they are still around as that means lots of hop-ups exist that aren't too dear. In saying that, I was surprised to see a D90 for the CC01 released, its like everybody else has one, so Tamiya needed to jump on the bandwagon. I've sure there are better bodies to be had, like a Forrester, Outback, or maybe a Volvo or other Euro car option.

Still it was also be good to see some even small upgrades included, bearings, lockable from diff, better steering mechanism, and I too would like to see more hard bodies. 

[Hibernaculum]

I don’t agree that Tamiya was “always an entry level manufacturer”.

There is nothing entry level about the overengineering of their great early cars. Other brands may have beaten them in competition. But no brand could consistently match them in terms of over-engineered complexity, back in the 1980s. 

As for the High Lift... I understand that better products do come along, over time. And if you want the latest and greatest, you will move on.

But I am completely opposed to the attitude of “This used to be good, but now I hate it because there are better alternatives.” Whats that all about then??

The High Lift is what it is. A moment in time, like all the rest. In 30 years I am sure it will be viewed with some real nostalgia. But I don’t understand the mindset that needs to veer first from happiness to hatred, on the road to inevitable nostalgia.

As for what Tamiya “should” do...

I’ve probably been saying this a long time... But I would like to see Tamiya release a line of premium, scale-realistic off-road racing R/C vehicles. Working models, for the scale modeller.

Don’t just remake the classics though. Make new, original classics. And use a 1980s scale realism mindset. Performance can be as modest as necessary, I don’t care. There was a time when none of us thought they would ever be so bold as to remake things like the SRBs as the designs are so old and "out of date". But they did. If that was acceptable for a modern market, then why not create some new models with a similar retro mindset?

Call it something like the Tamiya Master Collector Series. 

Real sponsors. Hard bodies. Suspensions that pay homage to the real car. Window netting. Interiors. Metal parts. Waterproof tubs. Pump-up tyres. Headlights. Spotlights. Heck, even garage or bivouac diorama sets and pieces for the shelf. Plus of course, nice large kits with box art and blister packs.

Maximum 2 cars per chassis - not just one stupid cookie-cutter plastic chassis with some boring alphanumeric name, and 20 different bodies for it.

Make them truly special. Make the cars so detailed, gorgeous, desirable and authentic to real off roaders, that nobody will moan about them not suiting brushless motors. Make them works of original art so cool that people can’t resist how they look - even at a premium price. Make them collector’s items that will become more valuable with time. In effect - emulate the mindset that went into the early, hardbody off-road buggies and rally cars. But perhaps take things even further toward realism.

Base them on some of the thousands and thousands of old rally cars, Baja buggies and Paris Dakar cars that are now lost and forgotten, and should be easy to license. VW and custom buggies, Group B, Safari Rally cars with spare tyres on the roof.

No other manufacturer is doing anything like this. I see a lot praise heaped on the new players in “scale R/C” (mainly the makers of some scale 4x4s). I see none of them doing anything that captures the original magic of early Tamiya off road racers. Of the supposedly “scale” off road buggies on the market (the ones that are not remakes) - all I see are mild, anonymous-looking homages to real modern buggies, that are all-plastic and focused mainly on cheap fun and bashing. Some are ok. But personally, nothing I'd buy.

Forget performance and bashing then. Chinese makers are now undercutting everyone else by releasing generic buggies that go well and come RTR with brushless, for less than the price of most Tamiya kits. So let them have their generic, brushless performance market.

Pivot back now Tamiya, and make a line of working racing buggy/rally/baja models that do still work as well as the SRBs, but are primarily aimed at the modeller who loves to build miniature examples of the real thing. Perhaps this would be a somewhat "new" genre of R/C. Slow the buggy/rally hobby down a bit, and focus on authentic details, with models based on real-life (vintage/classic) off-road vehicles.

OK, that's my 2 cents

H.

PS. The recent "Volkswagen Beetle Rally 4WD" is not the answer - it's just a new body on a dime-a-dozen chassis, adorned with fake decal sponsors. It looks "OK" - but thrills no-one, neither the racers, nor the scale modellers.

[Fabia130vRS]

Well I am a 90s kid, dont know what the 80s in rc looked like. 

hard bodies were never a thing for me and I dont realise why they are better. But also so I never used a airbrush and wouldnt know the difference painting hard bodies and lexan.

cars are why I am into this rc thing, so neither planes, boats, construction machines and tanks never got my attention. 

But it is a conflict of interests. I think it is nice to see a detailed interior on a 1:24 scale. But in RC cars, does it really matter? 

Thats is what would be for me a bit too much. I like to see that the body actually looks like the real car. But the interior would be a bit too much since the car is supposed to move.

 

of course as said, a conflict of interests.

 

some like to race, some like just to build, some build and bash... 

 

But overall I agree there is a lack of offroad scale realistic vehicles. 

[Juggular]

huh, Fabia's view is enlightening.  

Since I grew up with Grasshoppers, hard bodies were important.  But for somebody growing up in the 90's hard shells would've been a thing of the past.  They are heavier, they break easily on impact.  I see Fabia's point.  

Maybe it's on-road vs off-road too.  

On-road racers have to be aerodynamic. They have their windows up.  On-road Lexan bodies Truck Norris builds, look like real cars.  But for off-roaders, suspension works more if there is a bit of a weight to the car.  You can drill it, sand it, glue firewalls and engine to it, etc.  So it's generational AND 'on-road vs off-road' too, I suppose. 

For the Grasshopper generation, RC cars was a fresh concept.  It was like "wow, It looks like a real car with rubber tires and all. And it moves!"  It was like the real thing, but small.  Anything that breaks the illusion was like playing a computer game that tells you "this is only a game."  There is a reason why we don't see "Game Over" any more. That breaks the illusion.  But if RC was an established thing in the 90's, you take it as what it is--it's a remote control car. Nothing new. It doesn't have to give you the illusion of being same as the real thing.  

To me, though, Lexan feels like seeing a round door of a Hobbit home but see nothing inside when you open the door.  To be fair, Lexan can be done very well, and resin can be done badly.  But it is interesting hearing about somebody who grew up when RC was a completely common thing.  

[Below is TC's own @bdamit's FAV]  

 

[Saito2]

12 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

The High Lift is what it is. A moment in time, like all the rest. In 30 years I am sure it will be viewed with some real nostalgia. But I don’t understand the mindset that needs to veer first from happiness to hatred, on the road to inevitable nostalgia.

I think this is what folks forget. They forget just how lucky we felt to get the High Lift at all. "Bring back the Bruiser" petitions had been circulating for years before the HL. They were ignored. I think someone with a passion inside the company had to come up with a cost effective Bruiser-like replacement using as many modified off the shelf components as possible. The HL was a hodge-podge of tweaked and modified Juggernaut, TLT and Rig parts. 

12 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

as for the High Lift... I understand that better products do come along, over time. And if you want the latest and greatest, you will move on.

While I believe we should have some sympathy for the High Lift, looking at it as a moment in time, I don't think we should necessarily have sympathy for Tamiya. Better products should have come along after the HL ran its course. Even something a niche-market as the TXT-1 got a more realistic update as the Agrios. Instead Tamiya, masters of realism, opened the door just to watch other manufacturers sprint past them.

In the end, I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I know better than Tamiya or tell THEM what they should be making. I can dream. We all can, no harm in that. I'm just more than a little saddened that the old flame that once burned at Tamiya is out. Now, we have some basic chassis (some very old) like the CC01, DT03 and TT02B, pounded out, over and over again. And, hey, in this market, maybe that's what needs to be. Maybe to those just getting into it, those are exciting vehicles. That's great. Perhaps part of the reason the rereleases are popular (beyond constantly returning to the well of nostalgia) is that new folks find them so much more interesting and involved over the blander offerings today. Not that any of this should matter to me (as an US citizen) since MAP pricing has effectively ended my 35 year relationship with the company. Still, I wish them well and hope to see greater things from them in the future. 

[markbt73]

15 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

As for what Tamiya “should” do...

I’ve probably been saying this a long time... But I would like to see Tamiya release a line of premium, scale-realistic off-road racing R/C vehicles. Working models, for the scale modeller.

Don’t just remake the classics though. Make new, original classics. And use a 1980s scale realism mindset. Performance can be as modest as necessary, I don’t care. There was a time when none of us thought they would ever be so bold as to remake things like the SRBs as the designs are so old and "out of date". But they did. If that was acceptable for a modern market, then why not create some new models with a similar retro mindset?

Call it something like the Tamiya Master Collector Series. 

Real sponsors. Hard bodies. Suspensions that pay homage to the real car. Window netting. Interiors. Metal parts. Waterproof tubs. Pump-up tyres. Headlights. Spotlights. Heck, even garage or bivouac diorama sets and pieces for the shelf. Plus of course, nice large kits with box art and blister packs.

Maximum 2 cars per chassis - not just one stupid cookie-cutter plastic chassis with some boring alphanumeric name, and 20 different bodies for it.

Make them truly special. Make the cars so detailed, gorgeous, desirable and authentic to real off roaders, that nobody will moan about them not suiting brushless motors. Make them works of original art so cool that people can’t resist how they look - even at a premium price. Make them collector’s items that will become more valuable with time. In effect - emulate the mindset that went into the early, hardbody off-road buggies and rally cars. But perhaps take things even further toward realism.

Base them on some of the thousands and thousands of old rally cars, Baja buggies and Paris Dakar cars that are now lost and forgotten, and should be easy to license. VW and custom buggies, Group B, Safari Rally cars with spare tyres on the roof.

 

I could totally get behind this idea. And don't limit it to off-road; can you imagine a Tamiya version of the old Pocher model kits like an Alfa 8C or Mercedes 540K, "suitable for radio control"?

I might ever only be able to afford one, but it would be the pride of any collection...

[Juggular]

 

On 7/24/2018 at 5:28 AM, Hibernaculum said:

 But I don’t understand the mindset that needs to veer first from happiness to hatred, on the road to inevitable nostalgia.

 

Speaking for me, I love Tamiya.  But I also know Tamiya can do a lot better.    

41 years ago in 1977, XR311 had 4 wheel independent suspension.  Even looking at it today, it still has quite a realistic suspension. 

1979's SRB really allowed almost waterproof bashing.  

1980's Holiday Buggy showed how toy-like things could have been if Tamiya wasn't really pushing the limits.  This is what Tamiya could do at a low point.  

1981, just 4 years after jumping into RC, Tamiya released 3 speed transmission that nobody was able to top, 37 years later.  

1982, Wild Willy was ridiculously fun!  When I saw it, it was years later.  But I still remember thinking, "wow, what on earth is that?"  

1985's Hotshot was incredible.  I still remember wracking my brain, trying to figure out how the rear mono-shock works.  4WD!  With relatively smaller wheels, it could still go everywhere!  

1987's Clodbuster was a big wheeled 4x4 monster.  And after that, no more substantial innovation.  

It's like Tamiya decided, "meh, we've done enough for the first 10 years. Let's just recycle ideas for the next 30 years."  

I'd be happy with even little things, like Bigwig's rack and pinion.  It's not really necessary, but it was interesting.  

German VW Kubelwagen had portal gears from the 1940s.  I was sure Tamiya would build it by early 90's.  Imagine Grasshopper gearbox with portal gears.  Such a simple idea, right?  It won't get hung up on every little piece of rock on the ground.  Even if you recycle old gears, by adding a set of portal gears, you can improve the off-road performance greatly.  That would have been so Tamiya-like. 

Instead of Grasshopper's A-arms with huge bump-steer, how about trailing arms?  But instead of SRB style trailing arms, long reverse trailing arms!  Kinda like 4 link system, and put one beam across two front wheels.  Use a Midnight Pumpkin body with a CC01 rear axle!  And give it realistic tires like Grasshopper front tires.  2WD, and just like the real 50's truck.  Include a seat from Bruiser (I don't know it'd fit).  It would have been simple, primitive, cheap, not very capable as an off-roader, but still very interesting.  

Tamiya can use parts they already have.  And you can still make an interesting car.  (as I was saying, convert TLT1 into a crawler to compete with MST)  

Considering how brilliant Tamiya was in the first 10 years, it doesn't feel like Tamiya has been trying for the next 30 years.  I love Tamiya.  But if I can sit here and imagine 3 things off the top of my head, (Grasshopper with portal gears, Midnight pumpkin with 50's style chassis, TLT crawler), Tamiya can probably do 30 different amazing things.  Instead, what does Tamiya do?  Just releasing the same exact CC01 for 25 years in 15-16 different bodies.  

That's a bit disappointing.  It's like you are a friend to Stephen Hawking.  You know he can discover the secrets of the universe.  But he says, "Nah, I decided to watch 25 years worth of the Simpsons back-to-back."  You don't hate your friend, but you wish he got off his butt and do something.  (Well, he couldn't get off his butt. You know what I mean, rest in peace... But Tamiya can.)  

I'm also put off by Tamiya's minimum advertising pricing policy, I'm not going to buy any new Tamiya.  Thanks to Tamiya's MAP, practically any 4WD is over 200USD.  That's about the same as MST's price.  And new Traxxas TRX4 Sport (with portal gears!) became competitive also.  $340 RTR is not bad.  I don't know if "no new innovation, but higher price" is working out for Tamiya.  

Just give me some new innovations!  Even like this one! 

(some guy called Billy Kara submitted this to RC Car Action last year--this guy should run Tamiya RC division. Are those zip-tie paddlers?)

 

[Jonathon Gillham]

I am a bit more sympathetic to Tamiya than most it seems, but get the frustration. Where to start...

Onroad. They make some great cars, unfortunately the TT aren't it but are the most common. The TA series is great, even the unloved TA06 was something different. The TB series are also good, so thats shaft and belt drive onroad cars covered. The TA07 was a new innovation (although some argue it just uses a single belt like Yok or Losi or someone used in the 90s...) and the TB05 looks to have some good features like front and rear motor positions. TRF cars can compete with the best in the world and are still being updated. The TRF103 is just out and very versatile, the TRF419XR was released in dec 18 (but is impossible to find now) and apparently a new one (TRF420 maybe?) is due out later this year. The bodies while lexan are pretty good. Racers want blobs anyway, which Tamiya don't do but thats ok, they should stick to realistic cars.

Offroad. This is what I really love but unfortunately Tamiya only cater to one part, which is backyard bashing. I say backyard as their cars lack performance for big spaces but this isn't a problem in my backyard, or any smaller space. I find that all Tamiya entry type buggies perform the same, thats rere and TT02B and I assume DT02/3 as well. The performance is plenty good enough with standard motors and batteries, they don't need to be better for this kind of use. I still have fun with them despite having race cars and comparing them to TRF and TA and Kyosho's best modern kits. A 70km/h RTR doesn't interest me in the slightest, I would need a big public place to run it and it would be unsafe. And too breaky for the track.

Where they let me down are the offroad racers. TRF cars are old and expensive, so no reason to buy one. They need a new TRF 2XX and TRF5XX and also DB03 and DN02. I would happily run the DB01 type car if they would bring out a new model. $450 kit price instead of $800 with 95% of the performance works for me.

Also I'm not affected by MAP pricing and have been incredibly lucky with not getting caught by customs on my orders from Hong Kong.

The other thing is, I have a Boomerang, Novafox and my old Kyosho Mantis with a 993 body on a shelf in my office and look and them every day and smile

[Saito2]

6 hours ago, Juggular said:

Speaking for me, I love Tamiya.  But I also know Tamiya can do a lot better.

 

6 hours ago, Juggular said:

I don't know if "no new innovation, but higher price" is working out for Tamiya.  

Exactly! I should have quoted Juggular's whole post honestly. It's brilliant and sums up my thoughts perfectly. Couldn't agree more.