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Yalson

The Kyosho Raider and its bizarre steering set-up

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I just bought a pretty pukka Kyosho Raider from eBay as it looked good, was going cheap and no one else seemed to want it. It arrived today and all looks good: the (metallic blue) body is in good, box-art condition (although I will probably buy a repro shell and paint it in my own colours, as box art isn't really my thing), it came with an ESC and servo and seems to be fully ballraced. However, the steering mechanism is bizarre. I have owned a fair few RC models in my years, most of them Kyoshos, but I have never seen a model with such a compromised steering set-up. It seems that the previous owner has moved the adjustable steering links to the innermost of two possible mounting points on the hubs. This has caused the front wheels to have a marked "toe-out" attitude when centred, which is weird enough, but a further result of this is that when on full lock the Ackermann angle causes the front wheel on the "outside" of the turn to point straight ahead, which I suspect does little for its cornering ability.

I imagine that some of the above can be fixed with some tinkering when I take it apart to have a look, but the whole arrangement seems extraordinarily weak and poorly thought out. Any movement of the front suspension also badly affects the alignment of the front wheels, while the steering linkages are puny and one has clearly already been bent and then straightened out again. I have read other threads here which mention the Raider's rather feeble front set-up, but I have not seen any which provided any solutions. Are there any parts – new or retro-fitted from other models – which could improve this mess or is it just something Raider owners have to live with?

I am not able to supply any pictures right now, but I will definitely take some when I get the chance, even if only so the rest of you can point and laugh.

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Well, you got me curious.  Looking forward to seeing those photos.  

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All part of why they are not so popular , they are a basic 'entry' level car . I had 2 at one point , they are a laugh to run with the kids but that's about it - good to look at though .

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The raider was my second RC back in the 80's. I've also got a RS500 on the shelf (identical to the raider). Sounds like the previous owner has made the not so good raider steering even worse. Putting it back to manual spec would be a start.

The stock servo saver is terrible. I'm sure with a aftermarket servo saver & some decent ball end links the set up could be greatly improved. 

 

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You can definitely fit the Tamiya standard/cheap grey plastic servo saver (0115065 P parts) instead of the stock one.  I've done it in one of my Raider runners that I broke the stock saver.  I'll agree that the stock saver is pants.  Quite brittle due to age as I found out.

The Tamiya hi-torque black servo saver (51000) may also fit.  I have not tried it, however.

As for the steering rods, they come from the factory bent in a slight V shape, like a gullwing.

Compared to a Grasshopper or Hornet, the Raider was a better-designed car.  It had a suspension that worked both front and rear.  The gearbox was bulletproof, not that there was anything wrong with the Tamiya one.

Stock with the 32T/21T "spur" gear and 14T pinion w/kit-supplied 05 Le Mans motor it is rather slow.  Switching to the 36T/21T "spur" and/or changing the pinion to a 15T or 16T with a higher-performance motor starts to get things rolling, but then it needs real oil shocks instead of pogo sticks.  The Kyosho Golds were the best choice.  Some Raiders even came with Golds out of the box.  In my Raider runner, I use the re-re Scorpion 2014 shocks.  Works fine.

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And I'm almost certain it's not supposed to do that on full left lock.

 

Raider 2 v2.jpg

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23 hours ago, Champ85 said:

You can definitely fit the Tamiya standard/cheap grey plastic servo saver (0115065 P parts) instead of the stock one.  I've done it in one of my Raider runners that I broke the stock saver.  I'll agree that the stock saver is pants.  Quite brittle due to age as I found out.

The Tamiya hi-torque black servo saver (51000) may also fit.  I have not tried it, however.

As for the steering rods, they come from the factory bent in a slight V shape, like a gullwing.

Compared to a Grasshopper or Hornet, the Raider was a better-designed car.  It had a suspension that worked both front and rear.  The gearbox was bulletproof, not that there was anything wrong with the Tamiya one.

Stock with the 32T/21T "spur" gear and 14T pinion w/kit-supplied 05 Le Mans motor it is rather slow.  Switching to the 36T/21T "spur" and/or changing the pinion to a 15T or 16T with a higher-performance motor starts to get things rolling, but then it needs real oil shocks instead of pogo sticks.  The Kyosho Golds were the best choice.  Some Raiders even came with Golds out of the box.  In my Raider runner, I use the re-re Scorpion 2014 shocks.  Works fine.

Thanks for that, Champ. I've ordered a Tamiya servo saver sprue and I will invest in some new shocks and driveshafts to replace the original plastic ones. Team Blue Groove have closed their eBay shop until the end of August, but after that I may order a new shell, although the blue one in the photos above is actually pretty tidy. The car has a replacement motor already, although I am unsure of its wind and provenence. We will see when I get to examine it. I have also considered some replacement steering links, as the ones on there at the moment are pretty puny.

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3 hours ago, KEV THE REV said:

The shell looks rather nice as is .

It does, to be fair. Whoever painted it did a pretty good job, although some of the decal placement is a bit idiosyncratic. I like painting shells, though, and I like doing them my own way.

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9 hours ago, Yalson said:

I'm not sure it's supposed to do that.

 

Raider 1.jpg

Yeah, your pictures demonstrate that those steering rods are installed incorrectly.  They also do not look stock.  Kyosho did not use enclosed ball ends on the Raider steering rods.

I can't tell if the rods themselves are the stock ones.  They seem thinner but it could be the angle/distance from the camera fooling me.

I also cannot tell if the rods are are the correct length.  If they aren't the stock rods, then they are probably too short which is why they are installed the way they are.  It was probably  the only way the previous owner could get it to work at all.

Download the Raider manual here: http://www.technicalrp.es/archivo_bd/13692379172139-manual.pdf

Go to page 11 where the steering rods are built and installed.  You'll see the discrepancies compared to your car.

As you will notice, the ball studs on the steering blocks are supposed to be mounted on the bottom and on the outer-most holes.  Yours are mounted topside and the inner holes.
Double check to make sure the steering blocks are not swapped upside down and left for right, too.  It looks like they are installed correctly, however, because I can see "L" printed on the left steering block (Step 2 in the manual) in your pictures.
 
The steering parts are Kyosho package RD-9 and are rather expensive (US $20) on eBay.  You can make your own replacements using piano wire, a Z-bending tool and ball ends.  Unfortunately I don't have any measurements handy to help you with the lengths and where and how much to bend them.  I'll see if I can get some measurements this weekend.  I'm almost positive that the left and right rods are different lengths and have the bend in a different place due to the non-centered servo saver in the chassis.  The manual does not suggest any lengths, just saying "make sure the wheels are pointed straight forward when the servo is in the middle."

 

 

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9 hours ago, Yalson said:

Thanks for that, Champ. I've ordered a Tamiya servo saver sprue

Ok, I double-checked my Raider with the Tamiya servo saver and there is one thing I forgot.  The servo must be moved forward approx. 6mm when mounted to the stock mounting pillars.

I used 6mm aluminum spacers with washers on both sides of the servo mounting tabs.

IMG_4114_crop-1600.JPG

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Thanks for all that, Champ. I have been busy on eBay purchasing bits and pieces, plus I already have all the electronics as I was going to put them in a Marui Hunter I bought years ago and never got round to rebuilding. My daughter is two and a half and is fascinated by machines, so I thought now would be a perfect time to build her something to play with. The Raider would probably be a better bet in that regard than the Hunter, but I may build that for me later.

I also bought a set of OT-6 Ultima drive shafts, as I gather plastic ones which come with the Raider are useless.

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I also have a Marui Hunter, the raider is a tougher car & easier to find parts for. 

Kyosho were fairly consistent with drive shaft sizes in that era. Rocky, Raider, Optima, Ultima & javelin have the same length shafts. I have Optima rere universal shafts in one of my rocky's. 

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3 hours ago, Static Age said:

I have Optima rere universal shafts in one of my rocky's.

Do you mean OTW125 Optima Universal Shafts?   I wouldn't think they would fit because the length of the axle where it goes through the hub is different.  While I have not tried OTW125, I tried a set of re-re Optima rear axles (OT230) and they did not fit the rear hub of the Rocky (which is the same as the Raider).  I think the axle was too short, so the cross pin couldn't go through the hole in the axle for the re-re hex to mount.

On the other hand, I noticed a ~0.5mm difference in length between the stock Rocky dog bone and the re-re Optima dog bone.  In other words, they are close enough to work fine, I think. I think the Rocky dog bone was longer.

 

 

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