Have Re Re’s destroyed vintage appeal ?

[SuperChamp82]

Ok so I’ll admit this is a leading question ...

I’m a Blazer + Ford Ranger away from completing my vintage 3 speed + SRB restorations ... but do you go further ? 

Tamiya’s 58035 Wild Willy has a special place in my heart - the driver alone set my 14 year old heart racing back in the day !

And their next - the 58036 Audi Quattro - was a rally legend that litterally lept off early 80s TV every Saturday afternoon. So cool !

Beyond that ? I built an original Frog + Grasshopper back in their day - and both felt increasingly plasticky vs my first SRBs - but are they now hidden gems ?

And would I be nuts investing £££ in plastic vs metal kits to bring them back to former nut + bolt glory ?!

If so, where are do you think is safe from re re’s bringing our favourites to a new generation ... but (maybe), in doing so, destroying their vintage appeal ?

All views welcome gents

[Nitomor]

Not for me. They’ve revived the appeal and brought them back to life, allowing them to be useable once more, whether that is through parts to refurbish them, or keep the shelfers as shelfers and enjoy the rere’s as runners in the spirit with which they were originally intended, 

I’ve no doubt Rere’s have destroyed values, but I was never invested in this hobby as an investment. I own a few vintage ones, that I paid a fortune for but it doesn’t upset me that the values will drop (though none of mine have been rere’d yet!) because that will be more than offset by gratitude for affordable parts availability.

Aside from deflating a marketplace for overpriced snotters, it takes nothing away from the authentic vintage kits as they will always remain such and the best ones will still command their values I suspect.

 

 

 

 

[Saito2]

I agree with Nitomor. I love the re-releases. When I started collecting and restoring old kits about 18 years ago I wanted to run them so badly. At first I did, but soon discovered the durability Tamiya ABS was a game of Russian roulette. Some kits did ok, but a lot simply crumbled. Years of being stashed away in the extreme heat of attics, lofts or worse, within direct sun light had leeched out the plasticizers. After watching my vintage restos slowly fall apart under careful running (plus the unavailability of certain spare parts) meant they eventually went on a shelf. 

Enter the re-release. With fresh plastic and free from guilt, I was able to enjoy these as they were meant to be driven (not in anger, but not with velvet gloves either). I've owned and ran some re-releases (like my Hot Shot) long enough that I have the same bond with them as I do a vintage cars from the 80's.

27 minutes ago, Nitomor said:

I’ve no doubt Rere’s have destroyed values, but I was never invested in this hobby as an investment. I own a few vintage ones, that I paid a fortune for but it doesn’t upset me that the values will drop (though none of mine have been rere’d yet!) because that will be more than offset by gratitude for affordable parts availability.

Aside from deflating a marketplace for overpriced snotters, it takes nothing away from the authentic vintage kits as they will always remain such and the best ones will still command their values I suspect.

 

With the exception of discerning re-re spares from vintage ones (which can be hard for the die hard purest in some cases) I completely agree with these statements. I did not collect for value nor investment. I collected for passion and personal enjoyment. If I spent a year (and a good bit of money) piecing together a Super Shot from parts only to see its value plummet months later with the introduction of the Super Hot Shot, who cares? I wasn't secretly rubbing my hands together thinking I'd re-sell my completed Super Shot for a mint only to have "mean, old Tamiya" steal its value away with a re-release. My Super Shot is STILL a Super Shot and NOT a Super Hot Shot. If you're in this hobby to make money restoring and flipping cars for profit or worse, enjoy lording over other enthusiast the rare car or item you have, you're in it for the wrong reasons.

[Champ85]

Agreed with the above points of view.

For me, it depends on how you look at it.   The re-re's definitely cooled my desire to own a vintage model.   Therefore, the "appeal" of vintage original has dropped for me.  But that's because until the re-re's existed, the only way to have the model was to buy a vintage original.  There was no choice.  Now there is a choice (at least for the ones that have been re-re'ed so far). 

My desire to own the original vintage model was never really the reason for wanting the model in the first place - I just wanted to have that model to build and drive and enjoy.  I do not care if it is original or re-re, honestly.  The re-releases are close enough to the original for me that I do not care if Tamiya modified them in some way to improve them compared to the original.  In fact I welcome it in most cases.  For example, the hex drives on certain models which were prone to rounding out and stripping were upgraded to dogbones.

So.. the appeal was always there, but prices of originals kept me away, still wanting.  The re-re's allowed me to enjoy what I wanted without paying through the nose.  This is not a slight against the sellers of original vintage cars/kits, but there was no way I would ever pay the prices required to own them.

In my view, the re-re's exist BECAUSE of vintage appeal.   If I did not want the model in the 1980's when it was released the first time, I am still not interested in it as a re-release.

In reading the OP's post again, I think the question is:  Does the appeal of buying/fixing/owning/having an actual vintage original model drop because of the re-re's?  And the answer to that (for me) is definitely yes.  I am not one of those collectors that needs to have "an original".  I am fine with the "close enough" re-releases.  But that's because I like to drive them and the re-re's let me do that guilt free.  Let the real collectors own the vintage original.  I'll keep the re-re's for myself.

[kontemax]

No.

ReRe destroyed the speculators, not the vintage appeal or the Tamiya genuine fans.

Max

[Hibernaculum]

Remakes have not affected the appeal of vintage cars, for me. And I have not stopped collecting vintage Tamiyas (and others) for the past 25 or so years

The remakes offer the chance to run brand new Tamiya cars which look roughly like the originals, at low cost. So I can totally understand the appeal of that. And I'd much rather people do that, than buy Chinese clones of Tamiya cars, or abandon Tamiya altogether. I also think the proliferation of the remakes has "reawakened" a lot of lost fans, who have then re-entered the hobby. Many of whom have gone on to learn about how the remakes differ from the original kits. Some have even gone and bought originals too - I know, because I have sold vintage kits to those people.

I have also tried to do my part over the years, to point out that remakes are new models in Tamiya's history: New models with new model numbers and many changed parts and details, even the box art and the name. They are not technically "re-releases" at all - it's a misleading term. The term "re-release" by definition means: an item which has been released again, the same as it was before. If that were accurate in the case of Tamiya, then the new kits would have been identical to the 1980s kits and actually be numbered 58041, 58043, etc etc. Which they are not. And the reason they are not, is because Tamiya wanted to make a bunch of changes to them - to revise them. In some cases they even changed the name of the car. I suspect this was done to help distinguish the new car from the original - perhaps even as a nod to the booming collector market. Why otherwise, would Tamiya name the Fox remake, "Nova Fox"? They have also begun carefully adding year monikers to the boxes of other remakes - such as "Monster Beetle (2015)", instead of just "Monster Beetle".

....

On a personal note, I can only speak for myself at the end of the day. But my love of the old cars is very, very connected to the way they were made, the era they were made, the design, the decals, the box, the parts, and all the old ways they were constructed - from twisting wires together and using your hairdryer to seal shrink tubes, and all the other little quirks of the manuals and construction. That was life in the 1980s. It was imperfect. The cars were quite new technology for their time. And there were many rough edges to how they went together, unlike today's world of convenience, "Expert Built", apps, and the general dumbing-down of many things in society.

The 1980s is in the DNA of the cars. It's how and when the cars became icons. No remake kit can ever be a substitute for that true 1980s nostalgia and fun, for me.

Money where my big mouth is... as we speak, I am currently restoring another Hotshot, Fox, and Bear Hawk. All 100% original, and period correct, with MSCs, and even NimH or NiCds, for a run at a track with a mate. I don't care what anyone thinks of this, because life is short and I need to do whatever goofy vintage R/C stuff I enjoy doing. And what I enjoy most, is building, seeing and driving the old cars as they were, when they became icons.

If I want to run a remake car as well at some point, I might do that too. But I'll consider it a new model in it's own right. It won't ever be a substitute for a true original - warts and all

[Baddon]

The re-res are what got me back into it after 30 odd years. I have restored /plan on restoring all the 4WD Buggies from my first (Boomerang) to the end of the series that included my last (thundershot so to the Terra Scorcher) I have bought all the buggies and most of the bits (mostly re-re new parts with classic buggies mostly as starters Except the BigWig which I just wanted to build from the ground up so its a re-re). I am using re-re bits as just not prepared to pay for originals. I had originally intended to run them, BUT after doing a total rebuild on my old Thundershot to more or less the upgraded state I last ran it (as near a Terra as makes no odds but with my own basterdised front suspension using rear shocks. Also after market wheels and tires as just no way I was paying near £30 for the fast wearing originals. I had my own car changed to Boomerang ones as they just last soooo much longer.

I was always fettling and swapping bits back in the day so why not now? After running the Thundershot and realising its too fragile for the modern ESC & Motors, I have changed my mind and will go shelfers. I will still do a nut and bolt rebuild with all cars using re-re parts and TBG shells with MCI decals. This will allow me to build a Winger for under £100 ( an original vintage shell for a Winger could cost more than my entire collection!!)

It reignited my Tamiya passion and I realise they are what they are. So I have started to bash Traxxis as the Family fleet of Tamiya's are just a bit to fragile for the impacts the kids keep treating them to. 

I look forward to getting them all done and on display as a conversation piece. It has also got the whole family involved in RC as well.

Still love Tamiya mostly due to the re-re's. It has certainly added many new fans who are back building, collecting and running. Keep em coming Tamiya. 

I can see my collection growing after the first target is met. (never ran em but love some of the 2WD buggies as well, esp the Fox and Madcap)

Oh and I sooooooo want a Vanquish, just need to re-re that as they change hands at more than Avante money!! and it was the normal mans (me) version back in the day.

Update on 22-10-18 - Now have a Vanquish and also a Madcap......need to get working as have more projects than time!!!

[max69vk]

Re-releases vs Vintage is a bit like buying a print rather than the oil painting.

It may not be the original, but that doesn’t stop you enjoying it, also you know that an original will always hold its value as it’s the smaller details that make the bigger difference.

Tamiya have always been smart enough to make fine detail changes to help differentiate between Vintage & rere as they don’t want to disenfranchise their loyal customers, & lets be honest the first people to buy the rere are most likely those that don’t want to destroy an original. 

[moffman]

I'm such an avid fan of the re-re because tamiya has been a big part of my social (when I was a young boy) and now my spare time now the kids have flown the nest and said spare hobby time has returned😊. back when the original RC vehicles appeared my first RC was bought by my parents (the ford ranger) other than that one I could only afford the lower end of the price range grasshopper, hornet, and I pushed my milk round and paper round money saving and got a second hand but in brilliant condition boomerang😗 but this never made my love for RC and tamiya any less but I always looked in not envy but amazement at the more technical blazer, Toyota pick up and avante (plus hot shot purely because of the way it looked and how iconic it was back in the day IMO) these were just way off my price range😮 I was never disappointed with my buggies racing or owning them but like everything which is on your wish list you just think to yourself "one day" well that "one day" has arrived because of the re-re's i now have the avante a hot shot and a few more all purchased again the old fashioned way by putting spare Money to one side😁, so for me it's definitely not profit it's 100% nostalgia and long may the re-re's continue even though I have no plans on buying anymore! (Well that's what I've told the wife😉)

[MadInventor]

For me, the vintage cars never held that much appeal in the first place. I had Tamiya cars when I was a kid back in the 80s - Sand Rover, grasshopper, hotshot, hornet, thundershot, mud blaster, vanquish, clod buster, then didn't touch the hobby again until about 2003, when a friend introduced me to eBay, by which time the re-re's had started appearing. So I started snapping up a few re-releases, along with the TXT-1 and Juggernaut monster trucks. By 2008 I had a collection of about 25 vehicles, as the pound was so strong against the dollar a lot of the kit's were just too cheap to leave alone :). The second hand original wrecks from the 80's didn't really hold any appeal when I could buy a new re-re for a little bit more cash. So without the re-re's I simply wouldn't have put money back into the hobby in that way. 

[Pablo68]

By the time I'd discovered ebay, and then got into the hobby again via-my kids, the vintage Tamiya cars were already fairly pricey and hard to win at auction anyway.
I'd tried with one or two, Monster Beetles from memory.
Collecting the vintage cars is still a thing, so I don't think the re-re's have harmed that too much, other than to bring prices down a bit.
I'm not really fussed either way, I have a real vintage Boomerang for example, but it's got bits and pieces of re-re on it. Before the re-res finding spare suspension arms in good condition would have been difficult, and pricey. The re-re's have made spares at least a lot more available and I'd guess cheaper to boot.

[Juggular]

I didn't enjoy the 80's MSC.  Mine was always dirty, and the connection was often bad.  Then I'd try to wipe it with WD40, which attracted more dirt.  I tried to bend the contact, and that didn't work well either.  Decades before ESC, I wanted something better than MSC.  But if I got a Porsche 956 in good condition, I'll keep the MSC.  The shelf it'd sit would be a time capsule.  

Aside from that, I think even re-res will be vintage 30 years from now.  I don't think of re-res as vintage.  2011 Sand Rover is obviously, "remember something-like-this?" not so much of "this is what you had."  I am very glad that 2011 Sand Rover came with DT02.  80's chassis was more like a "motorized scale model."  I'm not happy Tamiya made a bunch of holes on the body to fit DT-02.  But Tamiya exists to sell, holes or not.  They will use whatever they can. 

In that sense, I guess they have the Miyamoto Musashi's philosophy.  The all-time undefeated swordsman of the 16th century Japan didn't care what sword he used.  He'd go and buy a good pair of swords, use them for sword fights.  If they become dull after a sword fight, he'd toss them and buy a new pair.  They were "tools" for his trade.  If Tamiya accidentally destroyed the mold for the paddle tires for Blazing Blazer long ago? I am fine if they make something substantially similar.  

I'm relaxed about RC stuff.  This is quite different from scale models.  Panzer II's drive sprocket should have 26 teeth (if I remember correctly), you can't really tell if it has 25 teeth or 27 teeth.  But Tamiya's model had 25 teeth (later release had 26, or was it the other way around?), such historical inaccuracy breaks the illusion of the "scaled-down representation," and it bothered me to no end.  I suppose this is where Hibernaculum is getting at.   

Everybody is different.  To me, 1:1 car is like a pair of mud boots.  It gets me to where I want to go, no matter the condition.  To some people 1:1 is like a fine pair of dress shoes, it has to be clean and respectable.  To me (actually, to my wife), our lawn is like hair. It must have a neat haircut).  To others, a lawn is just "outside."  It can be wild.  Nothing is wrong with either.  

One thing is certain.  Re-re has brought a lot of money to Tamiya.  No matter how expensive vintages got, Tamiya didn't make money off of once-sold kits.  Re-re is a way for Tamiya to make money.  I'm glad that I have Willy's M38, but I wish they had released it in the original form.  Instead of keeping the value, I'd rather want to replace the cracked tires.  (I know I can get a reproduction for about $55 from Hong Kong, I'm thinking about getting it)  

[GTodd]

I would agree that the Rere has hit values a little, however I feel that the rere line has helped expand the Tamiya Collection bug. There are very few rere's that are exact duplicate to their original, I can only think of two at the moment being the Top Foce and the Dyna Storm. The other rere's have functional and aesetic improvements and/or changes. These changes make me want to buy the original to see and experience the difference.

For nearly 10 years i had a GORGEOUS original Avante with a NIB Technigold installed, I feared driving it, not becasue of the value hit but becasue I didn't want to break it and spend tons to fix it, if I could find the part. As soon as the rere came out i sold it for a loss and purchased a BS, why? Becasue I wanted to run the car. 

So while the rere's have hit the value a little bit I don't think its hurt the classic hobby. There are always going to be you guys who want the perfect shrink wrapped 934 or Bruiser that will keep the classic market going. 

The rest of us will be enjoying reliving child hood experiences with our kids in the back yard driving Avantes, Hotshots, Frogs etc.

[Pablo68]

I might expand a bit on my other post. I don't always get my ideas across clearly.

Before the Re-re's your choices were Vintage in several states. Old Fixer-uppers, Miraculous Shelf Queens, and NIB's. That's my recollection anyhow. There's probably more categories than that but whatever.
I've never bought an NIB, I'd constantly be at war with myself whether to broach it and build it or not. It's be like having a bar of chocolate or a bag of pistachios or something in the room. Then I'd probably regret it afterwards cause I'd just spoiled or changed what is a piece of history.
The other categories have their issues too if you run them.

The Re-re's a re great, buy em, build em, run em, guilt free!
 

[Hibernaculum]

Good posts everyone. It's funny. When I read the comments about people only running a car if it's the remake/re-re, I wonder - how many people actually do run originals? Nobody?

I've been squirreling stuff away for years and not even building, but am starting to run a few cars again now after a long time, and I have a lot of building to do. But I've always felt that, since in a few decades (give or take) I'll be visiting the big Hobby Shop in the sky... why not run originals? MSCs and all, I intend to build and run quite a few classics, kit standard, before I'm gone. You can't take them with you when you go. We might save them for future museums. But there's also a good argument that we are the best people to enjoy these little plastic cars, during the tiny window of time in human history that they existed.

And whatever I have left in my collection in the end, I will probably end up donating to charity in the end anyway. As I'll probably finish up without family (I was married previously for 13yrs, but let's just say "her honour died". We also had no children).

Life is short. Tamiya hard?

[NWarty]

On 9/8/2018 at 3:41 PM, Saito2 said:

I did not collect for value nor investment. I collected for passion and personal enjoyment. 

Let me reiterate this: I did not collect for value nor investment. I collected for passion and personal enjoyment. 

I took my re-re Bigwig out this past weekend and ran the snot out of it, with no fear of breaking it. It's very fast with its packaged motor and 5000mah 8.4v Nimh pack. Sure I may scuff the chassis pan, scrape a bumper and its tires will get worn, but the smile of tearing through my lawn at speed is wonderful. 

My sons don't share my Tamiya passion and I've finally stopped caring about breaking cars. There's only one or two cars I won't run because parts are too expensive if something breaks. 

[nowinaminute]

It's hard to gauge because everyone is different but I don't think it has really destroyed vintage appeal.

For some people, the originality and authenticity is a big part of the appeal, whether they run their vehicles or not. For me, as long as it's one of the re-res that is quite close to the original, I'd rather take that and have the fresh, supple plastic and possibly have less breakages and not risk mixing original and rere parts when repairing etc. I'd rather the original be owned by someone for whom the originality is a big part of the appeal.

I got an original Boomerang a few years back and while I loved driving it, something seemed to break each time. Because I never owned any hobby grades as a kid and only coveted them from afar, the difference between the original and re-re was not a big deal to me so I ended up selling it and only had to pay a little extra to get a new re-re which I have bashed the snot out of with no breakages so far. For me personally, the rere was the better choice.

The differences range from subtle to significant but even when it's at the small end of the scale, it's enough that a rere is never going to satisfy a collector who enjoys having original stuff. 

I don't think it really effects the value or appeal of the vintage stuff at all, there's little practical difference for my purposes a lot of the time, I have no direct connection with the originals other from fuzzy visual memories so usually a set of MCI decals is all I'd need to change. But for someone who's focus is on originality, the rere stuff isn't going to effect much.

 

[markbt73]

It's funny; the re-releases, re-makes, and tribute models (three different things, in my mind) have actually made me more interested in the originals, because of how I use and enjoy my models.

I'm not much of a stickler for originality. I don't have the patience to track down every little original part of a car to restore, and I don't have the bank balance to buy a new-in-box kit to make sure I have all the pieces.I'd rather find or make something functionally equivalent and get the thing going again. So my vintage models tend to be resto-mods to some degree, and nearly always contain some homemade parts. In a way, this is actually the most true to the originals that I am capable of being, because it's exactly how I treated them when I was a kid.

And I tend to be more willing to run these creations than I am a freshly-built re-re that I don't want to scratch. My RC10 remake has been sitting in its box, assembled, with one run on it, for a couple of years now, because it's pretty, and I have a couple of good authentic original RC10s that are already all scratched up, so I run one of those instead. (The other is in pieces, destined to become a "patina shelf queen".) I have a re-re Subaru Brat sitting there new-in-box, because I don't want to tear into it just yet, because then I won't have it new-in-box. Instead, I go drive my resto-mod Blackfoot.

However, I have no qualms about replacing broken original parts with new re-re parts, if they fit and look correct (which nearly all the Tamiya parts do). It's there, it restores function... problem solved. And I don't plan to sell my cars, and if I did, I would disclose the use of re-re parts, even if they ruin the "value" for someone else. I completely respect that some collectors prize originality, and I would never want to be seen as trying to put something over on someone.

I have also recently started collecting old static model kits, and I avoid the remakes and re-releases like the plague. But the timelines and production history are a lot more blurry for those than they are for RC kits, so it's harder. I obsessively check copyright dates and look at box-flaps for a URL (an obvious telltale sign that it's a re-release), and if there's a question in my mind about a kit's actual age, I don't buy it. The "Round 2" and other Chinese remakes just don't interest me. I don't know why I'm such a stickler for originality in static kits but more flexible with RC; maybe it's because the RC models can move, so they're more like "toys," whereas the static kits are more like "collector pieces."

[Bromley]

I help out a local hobby store at model air shows and events, We always take a good selection of Tamiya RC kits and XB's. I can say with absolute certainty Re Re's are a good thing for the hobby at large. I spend most of my time talking to guys between the ages of 30-60 who had Tamiya cars/buggys as kids or enjoyed the fun of building Tamiya RC kits for their kids back in the 80s/90s. It's great to see the smiles and smirks that Hornets, Hoppers, VLB and Pumkin put on the faces of these middle aged guys. Some just llike to chat and reminisce, others actually purchase stuff they had back in the day. I'd like to think some go on to be fully re-engaged in the hobby. Just like I was at the start of the year.

 

[acprc]

Re-Re's have affected my collection and collecting very little as I mainly focus on Nitro. In actual fact a few touring/rally car bodies have re-appeared because of the new re-re and that has helped me finish some restorations.

I long stopped worrying about resale value on my kits however not a single Tamiya nitro kit has been re-released yet. 

[racer1]

I'm personally loving the re-releases. Rather I was until the new MAP pricing took effect.  I have a large number of the originals on the shelf restored to mint condition and painted in box art. These will never see dirt or road again. The re-releases give me a way to buy, build and enjoy these same models again without fear of damaging my originals. My feeling on the re-re's is that I hope they never go away. In my perfect world every model would be available to purchase but I know that is unrealistic. Since the new MAP pricing has taken effect it's allowed / forced me to step away from Tamiya and i'm now enjoying the re-releases from Kyosho. If Tamiya gets their heads together and removes MAP then I'll come back but at this point it would take a special re-release to get me to buy.

[Juggular]

On 9/10/2018 at 3:02 PM, markbt73 said:

I don't know why I'm such a stickler for originality in static kits but more flexible with RC; maybe it's because the RC models can move, so they're more like "toys," whereas the static kits are more like "collector pieces."

I have "vintage" Tamiya kits like M5 light tank from the 70's.  Those are still abundant, and not worth much.  I assume you collect something rarer and more valuable?  (The old M5 tank tracks have connectors molded in the wrong places.  Every block looks like they are connected to the next one by magic.)  I prefer tanks that are not imbued with magic.  The correct tracks from AFV club costs more than the 70's kit.  Also, Tamiya is releasing a completely new M5.  If I get that, the vintage M5 would have almost no value.  

Also, I don't mind fixing up an old Boomerang runner with re-re parts and bashing it.  Since re-re's out there, even if a vintage chassis is destroyed while bashing, it's not such a great loss?  Maybe I have that backwards...  But if I had a vintage XR311 runner in a good shape, I probably wouldn't run it (well, maybe a little).  

[Shodog]

Yes

[markbt73]

3 hours ago, Juggular said:

I assume you collect something rarer and more valuable? 

Not really. I stick to car kits, and I'm partial to Monogram "white box" kits from the 70s and MPC "Golden Wheels/Golden Opportunity" annual model-year kits from the 80s. And I usually go for models of "ordinary" cars; my last purchase was an MPC '82 Chevy Cavalier. Not super hard to find, and generally priced in the $20-50 range. I don't care about the monetary value of them; I just like what I like.

[NWarty]

Hobbyists vs. Speculators