Hornet vs RC10?

[Saito2]

When the RC10 Classic came out years ago, I read a bunch of articles on it (and the original) and even listened to a few podcast about it. Having studied them as well as having a reference of what other cars were about then, its not unfair to call it revolutionary. The creative mindset and forces behind the RC10 are kind of fascinating and quite open-book compared to the mysterious ways of Tamiya. So, speaking of which, the other iconic buggy of the 80's would likely be the Tamiya Hornet. Its been hinted at that the Hornet was Tamiya's top-seller.

So which, in your opinion, had the most impact and in what ways? Just an odd little "apples to oranges" comparison. Obviously the simple, ABS plastic Hornet was not a direct competitor to the aluminum tub, complex RC10. Still, both had a big impact in the 80's. Which do you think had more impact on its respective markets?

[Ann3x]

RC10 set the model for all subsequent "performance" 2WDs. Hornet got a lot of kids into the hobby but was dated design wise.

I vote RC10.

[Fuijo]

Racing is very niche. A tiny tiny percentage of RC car users.

Hornet is most likely the best selling RC car ever made. I vote Hornet.

[Hibernaculum]

Hornet wasn’t “dated” when it was released. It was perfectly of its time. Just functional, affordable, relatively lightweight and actually very quick in a straight line thanks to its simple and robust gearbox.

Really it’s the Grasshopper that established the chassis, of course. But the Hornet outsold the Grasshopper.

”Most impact” ... on the popularity of the hobby? The Hornet wins this by a country mile.

The RC10 was such a leap forward in racing terms, that it was almost as if it was technology delivered to Earth by aliens. It was competitive for years and years and years. But it was also completely unknown to most people outside serious racers. And as Fuijo said, racers made up a tiny fraction of global R/C owners.

To this day, most men of a certain age who know absolutely nothing about R/C, can still name-drop “The Hornet”. Recently at work, I ran this exact mini sample - I separately asked 3 colleagues aged over 40, which R/C cars they remembered - if any.

3 out of 3 named the Hornet. One also remembered the Audi Quattro (because he owned one). And another also remembered the Wild Willy. 

No 1/10 electric R/C car has ever done more to create awareness of 1/10 electric R/C cars, than The Hornet. This may not have held true in every single country, but globally, I think it’s true.

Also explains why every single Tamiya “souvenir” (coffee cup, San-S, Q Steer, Mini 4WD, Tamtech Gear, etc) has always included a Hornet.

Together with Grasshopper and Frog, this triumvirate ruled Tamiya sales in the biggest years of the boom.

All (including RC10) are icons 👍

If there’s ever a book called “100 R/C cars to own before you die”, they’re all in the Top 10. ☺️...

(Why does H always blurt thousand-word answers??)

Yes, it’s late here, I’ll shut up now   Good thread mate. 

H. 

[Ann3x]

4 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

Hornet wasn’t “dated” when it was released. 

.....

Really it’s the Grasshopper that established the chassis, of course. 

 

So yeah, it was dated.

[markbt73]

I think a lot of it has to do with where you were, too. The Hornet was a lot more universal, but the RC10's following was huge in the US, and by no means confined to "serious racers." Plenty of kids bashed them around backyards and vacant lots. They weren't particularly expensive (at least the standard #6010 kit with bronze bushings and a mechanical speed controller), and while it was a harder kit to assemble than a Hornet, it wasn't beyond most kids' abilities with a little help from Dad.

The Hornet was the king of the schoolyard drag races, and everyone either had one or knew someone who did, but it was also always considered a "beginner's car," something you started with and then moved on from, to, for example, an RC10.

The RC10 also probably won in terms of aftermarket support. You could build an entire "RC10" with no actual Associated parts in it. Conversion kits were available to turn it into anything from a sprint car to an on-road car to a monster truck. DIY conversions sprang up all over the place, in a thousand permutations. Because of the way it was designed, its architecture was/is probably the most flexible and hot-rodder friendly of any RC vehicle before or since.

But it was distinctly an American vehicle, popular with American hobbyists more so than in other parts of the world, for the reasons listed above, as well as its use of SAE hardware that your dad probably already had in the garage. No need to search for metric screws and nuts, or find something "close enough."

I would guess that the Hornet probably sold more units worldwide (something like 750,000, I think I heard?), but in the US, the RC10 was the car in the 80s. Of non-RC folks who have seen my collection, the two that they recognize ("yeah, my neighbor/cousin/buddy had one of those!") are the Blackfoot and the RC10.

[Terz1]

Without doubt the hornet had the most impact on me, not sure about impact everywhere else. It was the first Tamiya that I ever saw and the best rc I'd seen at the time. As a kid it just seemed so fast. The styling of it is really great too. If I was on family fortunes and they said name a radio controlled car it would be hornet! 

[Hibernaculum]

1 hour ago, Ann3x said:

So yeah, it was dated.

The Hornet was released a mere 5 months after the Grasshopper. Both were released in 1984. It was an upgrade from the Grasshopper. And there was nothing else on the market quite like either of them during that specific time period.

I don’t see how the Hornet could be labelled “dated”. Both were basic models aimed at the entry level or club racer end of the market, not specifically the race leading market. Both represented a new idea in that segment, that no other brand had yet copied. And both would sell by the truckload for many more years to come.  

[Hibernaculum]

1 hour ago, markbt73 said:

I would guess that the Hornet probably sold more units worldwide (something like 750,000, I think I heard?), but in the US, the RC10 was the car in the 80s. Of non-RC folks who have seen my collection, the two that they recognize ("yeah, my neighbor/cousin/buddy had one of those!") are the Blackfoot and the RC10.

Yeah it’s interesting Mark. I have heard from a few people in the US over the years who weren’t racers, but who grew up with an RC10 on their block.

In Australia though, I have never met a single non-RC person here that has even heard of the RC10. But Tamiya... everybody has a Tamiya story. 

Blackfoot sales are also reputedly large, but again mostly in the US. It hardly rates in sales in Australia, compared to the popular buggies. The Fox outsold it by fair way too, I suspect. Because I think it was in 1987 that the Fox was the biggest seller here (this is a known stat), and I have the figure somewhere. 

[Saito2]

3 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Conversion kits were available to turn it into anything from a sprint car to an on-road car to a monster truck. DIY conversions sprang up all over the place, in a thousand permutations.

This is quite true and a further testament to the versatility of the RC10 platform. I'm pretty RC Car Action had an RC10 electric toaster conversion on month . In fact, at one point in the 80's Car Action probably would be down 25% of their content if they didn't cover the RC10.

3 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Of non-RC folks who have seen my collection, the two that they recognize ("yeah, my neighbor/cousin/buddy had one of those!") are the Blackfoot and the RC10.

 

 I almost tossed the Blackfoot in there in the beginning, but kept it with buggies. Everybody in the US knew the Blackfoot. Before the conversion trucks, you ran Blackfoot in the truck class or an RC10 (or the odd Ultima) in the 2wd buggy class.

 

 

[Saito2]

1 hour ago, Hibernaculum said:

I don’t see how the Hornet could be labelled “dated”.

The Grasshopper/Hornet were probably the first mainstream popular buggy to use this design. It was certainly copied more than any other. However, as a design, it was a bit of a step backward. Buggies that preceded it had fully independent suspension. Still, for its intended market, that doesn't matter. In this case, the GH/H fit the bill nicely.

1 hour ago, Hibernaculum said:

Blackfoot sales are also reputedly large, but again mostly in the US. It hardly rates in sales in Australia, compared to the popular buggies. The Fox outsold it by fair way too, I suspect. Because I think it was in 1987 that the Fox was the biggest seller here (this is a known stat), and I have the figure somewhere. 

Its funny how one's location in the world changes everything (both the RC10 and monster trucks being uniquely US born). Its also interesting that the Fox sold well outside of the US. If the RC10 was hard to get elsewhere, I can see the allure of the Fox's good performance. In the states, the Fox was a bit of an outlier. It wasn't meant to chase after Panda Cylcones or World Rockbusters but rather to go after the RC10. Since the RC10 was affordable here, nobody considered any of the alternatives. The odd Fox usually made it into the hands of a backyard basher and that market was littered with competition unlike the RC10's market which was fairly small. Still, like Mark said, the RC10 could also be found in the backyard basher market. It was that versatile.   

[Juggular]

20 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

The Grasshopper/Hornet were probably the first mainstream popular buggy to use this design. It was certainly copied more than any other. However, as a design, it was a bit of a step backward. Buggies that preceded it had fully independent suspension. Still, for its intended market, that doesn't matter. In this case, the GH/H fit the bill nicely.

1

I, for one, was frustrated with the "bulge."  The family jewels hung down low and got caught everywhere.  Tiny pebbles, small tree roots, a marble, a penny or a wad of spitball on school playground... The ground clearance is like 1cm!  I would have preferred Sand Scorcher's design of 4 wheel independent suspensions instead of a differential.  (or even Holiday Buggy a couple years earlier -- just cover up the gears for common decency, please)  

The Hornet (& the Grasshopper) made the RC hobby visible.  I didn't have RC10. In 2002 or so, one of my friends said, "hey man, I've got an RC10 in my attic, do you want it?"  I passed on that.  (Good thing, his son is about 6 now, he can fix up that RC10 for his son)  At that time, I was into Wild Willy 2.  But yeah, RC10 was big in US.  I still think, however, the Hornet made a greater and lasting impression (also, I thought the RC10 wasn't as neat looking as all-black-and-slick-looking Hornet).  

 

[kwkenuf]

When I was growing up there were three main RC’s I wanted...  the Clodbuster,  a Kyosho USA-1,  or an RC10.  Never got any of them,  but I honestly never really heard of the Hornet.  Probably because I was a monster truck fanatic!

[Saito2]

1 hour ago, Juggular said:

I, for one, was frustrated with the "bulge."  The family jewels hung down low and got caught everywhere.  Tiny pebbles, small tree roots, a marble, a penny or a wad of spitball on school playground... The ground clearance is like 1cm!  I would have preferred Sand Scorcher's design of 4 wheel independent suspensions instead of a differential.

I know what you mean. From my first Nikko Mosquito to my Grasshopper 2 Super G, they all got hung up and pounded on that bottom of the diff case. When I first got interested in old RC cars as a kid in the 80's, I had to ferret out info on the older cars like the Sand Scorcher and Holiday Buggy. Even finding photos was hard (I didn't know the Sand Scorcher was even a baja bug at first.) When I did get to look at some pics of their chassis' as amazed to see they had fully independent suspension surpassing that of the then-current Grasshopper/Hornet. I guess, as a kid, I didn't think the older kits would have even more complexity in some ways.

1 hour ago, Juggular said:

(or even Holiday Buggy a couple years earlier -- just cover up the gears for common decency, please)  

 That's funny! Yeah, lets design a buggy with exposed gears. Who knows, maybe ground-up sand and muck made an excellent lube back in the day?

[Pablo68]

My first hobby grade RC was the Hornet. My current Hornet is a stock (cept for bearings and esc.....and servo saver and tie rods) 'Ship of Theseus'. There's parts in there from my original 86 Hornet.....dunno where though.
Anyway, back then Tamiya introduced me to 1/10 off road RC. They were by far the most visible. I had no idea that Associated or Kyosho even existed. I had seen a Marui Hunter on a shelf and thought it was a Tamiya rip off or something, I didn't know any better.
So for me personally, the Hornet had a much bigger impact, though I'd seen the Wild Willy (first I ever saw), the Frog and the Grasshopper around before buying a Hornet.

But yeah, it's a definite apples and oranges comparison. RC10 cannot be denied as a great design and epochal moment in RC in its own right. About as big an impact as the Hornet but in a different direction for the most part.
The Hornet got a lot of people into 1/10 RC cars and is fondly remembered, despite its flaws which for some are part of the charm. When you bring up the Hornet among other RC guys, even at a race track, people laugh with you, not at you.

N.B. I'd like to own an RC10 one day, funds permitting, but my collection is getting silly big (relative to me).

[87lc2]

Interesting topic.  It definitely depends on your geographic location, but i still think the RC10 had more impact either way.  I would also hazard to guess the RC10 outsold the Hornet (at least in the US).  Just take a look on Ebay, there are around 83 used Hornet cars/parts sold in the past 60 days.  There are over 1300 RC10 cars/parts sold over that same period.  Even looking on Craigslist RC10 outnumber the Hornet 5:1.  I dont think its even close in the US, the RC10 was way more impactful and popular.

I would also say the RC10 was not at all only for the serious racer as a previous poster said.  It was my first RC and I ran it in the street, backyard, etc.  I personally had a lot of friends who got into RC because of the RC10.  At least in my area no one wanted a Hopper/Hornet, etc.  the only Tamiyas that anyone wanted were the Blackfoot & Clod.

Of course at this point I love them all and actually enjoy my Tamiyas more, but being around 10 years old when the RC10 came out I have very clear memories of it being the most popular thing around.  There were the occasional Losi, but I rarely saw any Tamiyas (that weren't my fathers) around that time period.  

[Hibernaculum]

6 hours ago, Saito2 said:

The Grasshopper/Hornet were probably the first mainstream popular buggy to use this design. It was certainly copied more than any other. However, as a design, it was a bit of a step backward. Buggies that preceded it had fully independent suspension. Still, for its intended market, that doesn't matter. In this case, the GH/H fit the bill nicely.

Yeah, we do agree   I'd just emphasize that the Hornet chassis wasn't at all dated for it's target audience. In fact, I'd argue it was innovative. The Grasshopper got the layout right. But the Hornet had the edge in features vs price. Right car, right price, right time, right features: 540 + polycarbonate + sealed gearbox + differential + lightweight plastic chassis + oil dampers + good looks. Nothing else had actually hit this sweet-spot of specs before. And that's why it worked. And was forever copied.

53 minutes ago, 87lc2 said:

Just take a look on Ebay, there are around 83 used Hornet cars/parts sold in the past 60 days.  There are over 1300 RC10 cars/parts sold over that same period.

Hmmm ... given there have been some 25+ versions of the "RC10", most of them completely unlike the 1984 RC10, I'm not sure if this is the best yardstick. Suppose Tamiya had released a 34 year succession of 25 releases called "Hornet"? There'd be more Hornet listings also.

We also should not forget Japan in all our estimations.

USA may have been the biggest international market. But Japan was the only one with enough Tamiya-mania for there to be an actual TV show about Tamiya cars, filmed at the Tamiya headquarters and featuring races and How-to's. All the success and sales began in Japan, and for all we know, may have remained bigger there than anywhere else. The population of the USA was 235million in 1984. In Japan it was 120million. Still a very big market.

We know Tamiya had massive success in the USA. So how much success did the US-made RC10 have in the Japanese market? All I can say is I've bought R/C items from Japan for many years, and the amount of RC10 cars and RC10 parts doing the rounds on the Japanese market, is truly miniscule. Almost as if the car was barely sold there.

[nowinaminute]

Literally never heard of an RC10 until 2 years ago when I got back into RC.

But I definitely remembered the Lunchbox, Midnight Pumpkin, Hornet and 'hopper from childhood.

[kyosho1]

On 9/12/2018 at 5:24 PM, Saito2 said:

.......Which do you think had more impact on its respective markets?

I believe for the beginners market, Hornet (1984) would have dominated.

• easy to maintain 

• minimal assembly 

• very affordable

• stunning racing buggy stance

• hornet 🐝 theme with a driver figure

• beautiful box art

• presence of spring and damper suspension 

• awesome speed

For the intermediate-expert market, RC10 (1984) would have dominated in the USA market. But Frog (1983) may have come in 2nd place in this market. However, RC10 will still ;

• appeal to experienced Rc owner

• appeal to people who has knowledge of a working car & its parts

• appeal to older folks who prefer a less toy grade like RC buggy (mindful that mates may laugh at them for driving a Hornet/Grasshopper)

• appeal to richer clients 

I think RC10 had advanced design likely because they managed to see what was on offer from other companies.

A small “maybe” that Rc10 designers were inspired by the front double wishbone suspension in the Frog instead of swing or trailing arms. 🤨 Either that or the Tamiya Cheetah (1978) probably led to the thought of a rear double wishbone suspension for the RC10 😁 instead of trailing or swing arms. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Saito2]

1 hour ago, kyosho1 said:

I think RC10 had advanced design likely because they managed to see what was on offer from other companies.

A small “maybe” that Rc10 designers were inspired by the front double wishbone suspension in the Frog instead of swing or trailing arms. 🤨 Either that or the Tamiya Cheetah (1978) probably led to the thought of a rear double wishbone suspension for the RC10 😁 instead of trailing or swing arms. 

 

This discussion of design reminds me of a common misconception about the RC10. Its been bantered about that the RC10, while still looking like a normal buggy, was the first move away from miniaturized full sized off road cars design-wise which led ultimately to the awful looking "buggies" of today. I find this deduction to be false because:

1. the Frog (for example) was out 2 years before the RC10 and in no way was a scale model of a real off road buggy design-wise. The SRB - yes, the Scorpion - a bit less so, but yes, the Frog - no.

2. Roger Curtis the RC10's designer (and what the RC stood for in RC10, not "radio controlled") stated they looked at what was available on the market but also drew inspiration from full size off roaders. I recall reading that the owners of the full size cars (at race events and such) were leery to give up their design "secrets" until they discovered it was research for and RC buggy. 

The RC10 was so clean-sheet when it came to design. Something as novel as keeping the space between the ground and the flat underside of the chassis tub as clear of obstructions as possible is great thinking. They thought to keep the transmission outdrives as low in the chassis as possible to minimize drag in the dogbones. If anyone gets a chance, check out "The Winning Edge" RC10 video on Youtube. Its full of great development information and manufacturing footage. I wish Tamiya that transparent as less shrouded in mystery. 

[markbt73]

6 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

If anyone gets a chance, check out "The Winning Edge" RC10 video on Youtube. Its full of great development information and manufacturing footage. 

Plus it has an awesome '80s soundtrack...

[Juggular]

Two things I've learned from that video.  

[1] The prototype RC10 used Rough Rider front tires! 

[2] Roger Curtis had a pocket protector!  And a calculator watch!  (I'm not making fun of him. This is so 80's!)

All silliness aside, Tamiya should learn from the design philosophy.  

The first thing he says is shocks from RC500 were too small.  He would like to have used what they already had, but the implication was, 'not at the cost of performance.'  On the other hand, CVA is used everywhere regardless of the size, shape, and weight.  Wild Dagger, for example, CVA type shocks limit the travel quite a lot.  

The second thing he says is that the bottom being smooth and nothing hanging down.  To save a couple parts, Tamiya put a counter gear below the chassis floor on the Mad Bison, severely hampering the off-road capability.  They could have easily moved the counter gear above the chassis.  What's the point of having counter-sunk screws, if the whole gear hangs down?  If they designed it properly from the start, the Mad Bison wouldn't be so obscure... "the Mad-what?"  (Notice the slogan: "Hard to Herd."  Just as corny as "Anytime Baby" of the Hornet.)  

Anyway, this illustrates the difference between the Japanese and American approach to RC cars. 

As @Saito2 already said, these are 2 different classes of cars.  But still, the Hornet represents "recreational cars" that many Tamiya cars are.  It was made cheap and above all, pretty.  RC10 was a "race car," made to perform (but not as good looking).  Even to this day, I think that tradition continues.  Tamiya focuses on their cars being more "looking good and fun" than "performance cars."  Whereas companies like Traxxas focuses on "run better than others."  (like TRX4)  Since I'm a Tamiya fan, I wish they paid more attention to the performance. (just a tad)   

[Below looks alright for 2003. But doesn't perform very well, unless you run it on loose dirt only.  If the counter gear gets destroyed, the whole car is done for.  That's the Achilles... uh...whatever the body part that hangs low... ]

 

[Wooders28]

Most impact on me, was the hornet, as it was a hornet that I watched, with my jaw on the floor, bouncing across a school playground at a million mph, prompting me to ask Santa for a frog. 😀

[Saito2]

13 hours ago, Juggular said:

[2] Roger Curtis had a pocket protector!  And a calculator watch!  (I'm not making fun of him. This is so 80's!)

Well, the guy was literally a "rocket scientist" .  I mean, he designed a "gun" to shoot at the moon to determine if it was solid enough to land on. Imagine combining that design genius with Tamiya's excellent marketing (like the Hornet). You'd have a combination powerful enough to rule the RC world forever! Cue evil laughter.

[markbt73]

I absolutely love hearing Roger talking about the RC10's design. It's such a great example of what a really talented engineer can do (and not need a computer to do it). It's also a perfect example of what made the early pre-CAD RC cars so great; it's less "clean" than modern designs, but somehow simpler. Like it's cobbled together, but cobbled together in exactly the right way, from exactly the right parts.

I have enormous respect for Tamiya's designers as well, and the Hornet is also brilliant, but in a different way. It's more neat and tidy and all buttoned up in a nice package. Which, I suppose, is why it made such a great entry-level vehicle; it's more foolproof. And I agree; I would love to hear more of the history and design philosophy behind Tamiya's greatest hits. The greatest misses, too, for that matter.