F-1 suspension?

[Juggular]

How does the front suspension work on F101, F102, F103, and F104 racers?  

I am probably not going to own F-1 (but I'll get an M- series someday).  Seeing the photos of F-1 cars made me curious about the front suspension.  Long ago, when F-1 cars had beefy springs and oil dampers at the front, I thought, 'wouldn't that be too stiff?'  But now, I don't see any spring at all.  Are these riding on the flexibility of the lower arms alone?  Is that enough?  

Or does it work like a jointed articulation?  Two pieces seem to be joined just in front of the rear wheels.  [Similar to the Gamma Goat? Gamma Goat has very limited suspension travel, because of the mid-section articulation]  Somebody enlighten me, please? 

 

[Springs are easier to understand...]

 

[waterbok]

On the 101-103 there is a spring on the top of the steering knuckle. Tamiya has an upgrade set with springs in 3 different stiffness. The group C chassis have the same setup.

[Jonathon Gillham]

On F104 / TRF102 they have the spring at the bottom of that kingpin, under the lower arm.  You can see on that Kentech photo you posted that there is an e-clip right on the bottom, and touching that is the first coil of the spring.  They all mix and match though, I've had an F103 front end on my TRF102 with springs under the lower arm and at the top under the upper arm as shown above.

The F1 chassis is surprising how good it is given how simple it is.  There is a heap you can adjust and when they are set up right they are amazing to drive, but they can be a pig of a thing if they are wrong.

[Kingfisher]

2 hours ago, Juggular said:

 

I am probably not going to own F-1

I used to say the same thing. Then, I got an RM-01 (I know, not an F1) and found a flat parking area to run it. I fell in love and now have two RM-01's, an F103GT, and an F201 with plans to get an F104 soon. This thread will plant a seed in your head. I'll be watching for it to grow. 

Also, look through the manual at the RM-01. It's a 2 piece chassis with a damper for front to back movement, another single damper with individual springs for side to side movement, and springs on the front kingpins like posted above. 

 

[Jonathon Gillham]

45 minutes ago, Kingfisher said:

I used to say the same thing. Then, I got an RM-01 (I know, not an F1) and found a flat parking area to run it. I fell in love and now have two RM-01's, an F103GT, and an F201 with plans to get an F104 soon. This thread will plant a seed in your head. I'll be watching for it to grow. 

Also, look through the manual at the RM-01. It's a 2 piece chassis with a damper for front to back movement, another single damper with individual springs for side to side movement, and springs on the front kingpins like posted above. 

 

A similar thing happened to me, I think it was @Jason1145's fault for asking about them, and then @TurnipJF knew everything about them and they convinced me that I needed one...see what I did there, blamed others.  Then I found that a TRF102 was actually affordable and that would be my only realistic chance of owning a TRF car, and everyone needs a TRF car in their life right?

So since you've started, @Kingfisheris spot on, the seed is planted and you are going to have an F103, F104, RM01, TRF103 and a Group C for good measure by Christmas

[Juggular]

Ah, tiny springs are quite clever.  But also slightly disappointing in that it's conventional.  I suppose small springs work best for such light cars.  

Seeds... you guys are funny. 

I should be fine.  Flat areas are difficult to find.  I was told that these areas used to be an open mine for iron.  There was a restaurant that used to get hit by lightning all the time (closed now--it was probably sitting on a vein).  The nearby train station parking lot is quite small, and it's sloped.  This doesn't scream "F-1 racers, now!"  

 

In comparison, there is a baseball park nearby with lots of gravel to drive on.  

 

I just found a school parking lot that's almost flat...

Maybe I could buy NSU TT Jagermeister...

Oh, no... is this how it starts?

 

 

[Fabia130vRS]

Go for the NSU, not worth the time thinking aboutit just go for it.

http://www.rcmart.com/tamiya-58649-jagermeister-p-77295.html?cPath=420_1204

There it goes for 75$ and a F103 may be found on ebay for 30$, the main thing I would change on a F103 would be the rear axle/diff to F104 Pro diff.

If considering new, the F104 Pro v2 has the most advanced suspesnion in the F10x series, I believe very close to TRF.

Pan car suspension I would say, isnt it? 

[Kingfisher]

10 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

see what I did there, blamed others. 

No. It's okay. I blame that thread too. 

8 hours ago, Juggular said:

Maybe I could buy NSU TT Jagermeister...

Oh, no... is this how it starts?

You can get the NSU, but you'll still eventually come back to this thread and end up with an F1 car. Think about the maintenance costs... The F1 has less parts and smaller springs, so it should be cheaper to maintain, right? .......right? 

4 hours ago, Fabia130vRS said:

 

Pan car suspension I would say, isnt it? 

Looks like it's the same parts as the RM-01. 

 

[TurnipJF]

You aren't very far off comparing the suspension setup of a typical RC Formula 1 car to that of the Gamma Goat, in that the motor pod with it's heavy motor, heat sinks, diff and axles it's not all that much lighter than the rest of the car, especially with today's lightweight radio gear and lipo batteries. On my formula ones, with the exception of the 6 wheeled Tyrrell, the balance point is not far off the point where the front of the pod attaches to the rest of the chassis.

It is thus little surprise that fiddling with the springs on the front suspension has a minimal effect on the handling of the car, however making adjustments to the suspension system associated with the motor pod has quite pronounced effects. It is also little surprise that designers pay far more attention to the complexities of motor pod attachment and damping systems, leaving the front end pretty much unchanged in overall principle since the early days of the pan car.

As for the F104V2, it shares the same rear pod and suspension setup as the RM01. This is a PBLR system that is the same in principle as the TRF101, but featuring plastic parts in place of carbon and alloy. You can however get carbon and alloy hop ups to upgrade the rear end of a F104V2 to TRF101 level. 

[Fabia130vRS]

4 minutes ago, TurnipJF said:

6 minutes ago, TurnipJF said:

As for the F104V2, it shares the same rear pod and suspension setup as the RM01. This is a PBLR system that is the same in principle as the TRF101, but featuring plastic parts in place of carbon and alloy. You can however get carbon and alloy hop ups to upgrade the rear end of a F104V2 to TRF101 level. 

I would like to know on what particular part are you referring to the F104v2 to trf101? As my buddy would like to know and upgrade.

Also the RM01 and F104prov2 may use pinions up to 50T with 0.4 93/104T spur, the F103, F103GT, F104W.. may go up to 35-37T on a 93T 0.4 spur.

[TurnipJF]

 

On 9/24/2018 at 1:24 PM, Fabia130vRS said:

I would like to know on what particular part are you referring to the F104v2 to trf101? As my buddy would like to know and upgrade.

You need multiple parts I'm afraid - it its not just one particular part.

To give a F104V2 a TRF101-esque full carbon and alloy rear end, it needs the following:

53901 TRF main damper

54413 high efficiency roll damper

54576 carbon damper mount

54375 carbon gearbox bridge & alloy wing mount

54478 alloy roll spring mounts

54356 adjustable alloy motor and axle mounts

54460 carbon reinforced L parts (links and pivot ball mount)

54162 carbon rear axle 

... And to really give it the TRF feel, you'd probably want to replace all the JIS screws with hex hardware too. 

[Fabia130vRS]

a lot of carbon parts are installed.

[TurnipJF]

4 hours ago, Fabia130vRS said:

a lot of carbon parts are installed.

Indeed. Looks like it is almost at TRF spec already.

[Jonathon Gillham]

Its happening @Juggular, look at all the extra information you're getting, you're going to have to buy some to see for yourself...

[Kingfisher]

3 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

Its happening @Juggular, look at all the extra information you're getting, you're going to have to buy some to see for yourself...

Time to throw some logs on this fire.

 

and

 

 

[Juggular]

lol, you guys are all trying to lure me into (onto) on-road.  I'm not that weak-minded. (or am I...?)  

(Un) fortunately, my wallet is much stronger minded than me.  In less than 60 days, I bought 3 cars.  $125 + $290 + $140 = $555.  That didn't even include the silly servos and hex bits.  My monthly allowance was supposed to be $80 (Even our 17 year old goddaughter was getting $60/week --3 times as much-- so I raised mine from $20/week to $30/week. Yay! ). 

Anyway, in order to spend twice as much as the NEW allowance, I had to climb up the roof to fix the fallen flashing (the thing that covers the top of the siding and under the roof).  My wife was going to pay $300, but the handyman didn't show up.  So I did it and took the money.  Our 2-story ladder didn't reach the top, so we borrowed a longer ladder from the next door.  That would have been very scary, but fortunately, it was very dark.  I couldn't see much.  

She also wanted some accent tiles which costs like $8 each.  40 of them would have cost $320.  But I made 2 molds and made 30+ copies out of plaster.  I can spray them brown, and draw some lines with a silver Sharpie, they'll look just like those expensive plastic tiles.  I made another $300!  But she said that doesn't count because I didn't ask for it before I made all those plaster tiles!  So unfair!  Well, maybe not.  She put up those other tiles herself.  She didn't know how to do it before.  She learned it from Youtube.  Anyway, now she wants to paint the siding because it's turning green from all the rain.  She already bought 6 gallons of oil-based primer.  She wants to re-finish the floor (I did the downstairs, but she wants upstairs done), etc, etc.  

Every time, I shall Not forget to ask for money.  Yep, I'll work for RC cars, baby!  

Having said that, Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint has a newer M6 RWD chassis.  Or FWD M5 of NSU Jagermeister?  Front or rear, front or rear... front or rear... Finkle or Einhorn... Einhorn and Finkle... Finkle and Einhorn... (I don't know why I thought of Ace Ventura)  

 

 

[t3garett]

Good luck ! I m into 1:1 cars and do rally and occasional track days.... imagine what I have to do each time I buy another 1:1 car. I built our house 3 years ago for the sake of my 3rd alfa romeo ! For tamiyas I only have to do house maintenance and cleaning.... no wonder I m trying to give up cars....