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jongrill

Brushless power for TT02?

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Hey everyone! Just got my hands on the special edition TT02 white chassis. This one doesn’t come with electronics. What would you run in it? Do you think the stock gears can handle a Castle Sidewinder 3 and their lowest rated brushless motor?

 

This is what I’m looking at:

 

This is the combo I’m looking at. http://www.castlecreations.com/en/sidewinder-3-waterproof-1-10th-12v-esc-1406-4600-sensored-combo-010-0115-05

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The rear crown wheel on the Tt02 is made off toffee and flexes under load. If running brushless it is recommended to change the rear duff completely for one from the DF02 or get a crown wheel and pinion gear made by GPM. All the above items are steel and don't flex.

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1 hour ago, TwistedxSlayer said:

The rear crown wheel on the Tt02 is made off toffee and flexes under load. If running brushless it is recommended to change the rear duff completely for one from the DF02 or get a crown wheel and pinion gear made by GPM. All the above items are steel and don't flex.

Any idea what part numbers from Tamiya I need? 

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Another thing to consider is gearing options are limited with the TT02, both the spur gears you can run and the motor mount which doesn't have slots to adjust the mesh. Luckily you can buy the high speed gear set which allows you to run any spur, and the Yeah Racing motor mount has the slots instead of holes. These will allow you to gear it correctly.

I found in my TT02B that it could handle brushless but stuff wore out or broke far quicker, and that was only 13.5T with the stock ESC for the most part. I was able to repair it all easily with minimal new parts but there is a lot more slop in the one that ran brushless than the one that didn't. The TA or TB cars would be a better bet for a powerful brushless setup.

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Get metal parts bag A from the DF02, 9400152, and the gear cases to match, this will allow you to build 2

4 minutes ago, jongrill said:

Any idea what part numbers from Tamiya I need? 

 

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3 minutes ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

Another thing to consider is gearing options are limited with the TT02, both the spur gears you can run and the motor mount which doesn't have slots to adjust the mesh. Luckily you can buy the high speed gear set which allows you to run any spur, and the Yeah Racing motor mount has the slots instead of holes. These will allow you to gear it correctly.

I found in my TT02B that it could handle brushless but stuff wore out or broke far quicker, and that was only 13.5T with the stock ESC for the most part. I was able to repair it all easily with minimal new parts but there is a lot more slop in the one that ran brushless than the one that didn't. The TA or TB cars would be a better bet for a powerful brushless setup.

So maybe I’m better off just throwing a Quikrun ESC and Radeon 30,000 rpm I have here in it and call it a day! 

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2 minutes ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

Get metal parts bag A from the DF02, 9400152, and the gear cases to match, this will allow you to build 2

 

Thanks! 

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1 minute ago, jongrill said:

So maybe I’m better off just throwing a Quikrun ESC and Radeon 30,000 rpm I have here in it and call it a day! 

If you have that already then definitely worth a shot, no idea if you would need to drop a pinion or 2 for that motor?

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2 hours ago, TwistedxSlayer said:

The rear crown wheel on the Tt02 is made off toffee and flexes under load. If running brushless it is recommended to change the rear duff completely for one from the DF02 or get a crown wheel and pinion gear made by GPM. All the above items are steel and don't flex.

Very interesting, I need to now consider this for a fleet of my TT02’s that I plan on getting from roller and kits built into runner status... I would’ve automatically chucked in a 3000-5000kv brushless Motor and ragged it on 2s lipo without a second thought :(

Now I’ll be a bu more wary thanks for the heads up.

59 minutes ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

Get metal parts bag A from the DF02, 9400152, and the gear cases to match, this will allow you to build 2

 

Thanks for the help here Jono... I’m sure this thread might come in handy in my not too distant future ( thought all Tamiyas could handle brushless!)

Does the TT01 suffer this same weakness as the TT02 per chance?

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9 hours ago, Jason1145 said:

Very interesting, I need to now consider this for a fleet of my TT02’s that I plan on getting from roller and kits built into runner status... I would’ve automatically chucked in a 3000-5000kv brushless Motor and ragged it on 2s lipo without a second thought :(

Now I’ll be a bu more wary thanks for the heads up.

Thanks for the help here Jono... I’m sure this thread might come in handy in my not too distant future ( thought all Tamiyas could handle brushless!)

Does the TT01 suffer this same weakness as the TT02 per chance?

Not that I'm aware of.

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My TT02 speed run car is running the plastic gears with a 4370kv brushless setup. I've had no problems with them flexing like they do in the TT02B. If you get the Yeah Racing aluminum motor mount, this will allow for a wider adjustment of different gears. If you swap to 48p gears, you have more gearing options. Mine currently has 66spur and 37pinion.

 

36871587341_4a39da8a49_b.jpg

 

I'm sure the Castle motor makes more torque than my GoolRC motor, so I still wouldn't rule out the DF02 gears entirely. 

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4 hours ago, Kingfisher said:

My TT02 speed run car is running the plastic gears with a 4370kv brushless setup. I've had no problems with them flexing like they do in the TT02B. If you get the Yeah Racing aluminum motor mount, this will allow for a wider adjustment of different gears. If you swap to 48p gears, you have more gearing options. Mine currently has 66spur and 37pinion.

 

36871587341_4a39da8a49_b.jpg

 

I'm sure the Castle motor makes more torque than my GoolRC motor, so I still wouldn't rule out the DF02 gears entirely. 

I think I’ll just go for it and see what happens. Stock everything except the Yeah Racing motor mount and aluminum propellers and shaft! 

 

I know from previous posts I’ll need a DF02 metal bag A but what else would I need to switch the gears over? 

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8 hours ago, jongrill said:

I think I’ll just go for it and see what happens. Stock everything except the Yeah Racing motor mount and aluminum propellers and shaft! 

 

I know from previous posts I’ll need a DF02 metal bag A but what else would I need to switch the gears over? 

Get the high speed gear set as well as the Yeah Racing motor mount.  The high speed gear set is essentially a spur gear holder that allows you to use any standard spur gear rather than having to find spur gears that fit the TT02 shaft.  Then switch to 48p or 64p and you have a huge range of options and cheap ones.  I run all 48p gears in my race cars so I can swap pinions easily rather than needing a set for each car.  Yeah Racing pinions are around US$4 each from RCMart and the quality seems good to me, or you can buy sets of about 6 for a range but the cost is about the same as buying individual.

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20 hours ago, jongrill said:

I think I’ll just go for it and see what happens. Stock everything except the Yeah Racing motor mount and aluminum propellers and shaft! 

 

I know from previous posts I’ll need a DF02 metal bag A but what else would I need to switch the gears over? 

Probably worth checking if the gear bag comes with the diff cases, as the metal gears fit the 3-spider TT-01/DF-02 cases which are different to the 4-spider TT-02 ones.

If not, you'll want to order Tamiya part no 0555104, which will get you a pair of diff cases compatible with the metal gears. 

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2 hours ago, TurnipJF said:

Probably worth checking if the gear bag comes with the diff cases, as the metal gears fit the 3-spider TT-01/DF-02 cases which are different to the 4-spider TT-02 ones.

If not, you'll want to order Tamiya part no 0555104, which will get you a pair of diff cases compatible with the metal gears. 

Thank you for this info!

1 hour ago, Kingfisher said:

You can also try https://www.amainhobbies.com . They have a bunch of pinions to choose from and are located in the US. 

I will most likely go through a A Main/Hobbytown

14 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

Get the high speed gear set as well as the Yeah Racing motor mount.  The high speed gear set is essentially a spur gear holder that allows you to use any standard spur gear rather than having to find spur gears that fit the TT02 shaft.  Then switch to 48p or 64p and you have a huge range of options and cheap ones.  I run all 48p gears in my race cars so I can swap pinions easily rather than needing a set for each car.  Yeah Racing pinions are around US$4 each from RCMart and the quality seems good to me, or you can buy sets of about 6 for a range but the cost is about the same as buying individual.

OK. So....I am a little confused about the pinion gear subject. I have the high speed gear set for the TT but I don't really understand what gears do what...sorry....newbie here with ll of this.

If I stick with my Quikrun and Radeon 30,000 motor what gears should I run and why?

If I go with a brushless set up, what gears should I run and why?

I know these are simple questions and I REALLY appreciate all the help you all have been giving me!

 

Jon

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I take it you are familiar with riding a bicycle? The gears on a model car work according to the same principle.

Think of yourself in place of the motor, and your chainrings in place of the pinion gear. If you select a bigger chainring on your bicycle, you can potentially ride faster but you need to pedal harder to reach that higher speed and your rate of acceleration is slower then it would be with a smaller chainring selected.

Conversely, if you choose a smaller chainring, you have an easier time pedaling, and you can accelerate more quickly, however you do not reach the same top speed before you are pedaling so fast that your legs cannot move any faster, effectively hitting your red line.

The same thought process can apply to your spur gear which takes the place of the cassette in the bicycle analogy. A bigger spur gear makes it easier on your motor and gives quicker acceleration but less top speed. A smaller spur gear gives a higher top end but slower acceleration and places more load on the motor.

Choosing the appropriate gearing is dependent on many factors including your choice of motor and where you plan on driving the car. Long straight speedruns call for taller gearing than tight twisty circuits for example. It is usually a case of finding the right ratio for your given conditions and driving style through experimentation. Basically you want to try and find the right compromise between acceleration and top end without placing so much stress on the motor that it overheats and dies.

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2 hours ago, TurnipJF said:

I take it you are familiar with riding a bicycle? The gears on a model car work according to the same principle.

Think of yourself in place of the motor, and your chainrings in place of the pinion gear. If you select a bigger chainring on your bicycle, you can potentially ride faster but you need to pedal harder to reach that higher speed and your rate of acceleration is slower then it would be with a smaller chainring selected.

Conversely, if you choose a smaller chainring, you have an easier time pedaling, and you can accelerate more quickly, however you do not reach the same top speed before you are pedaling so fast that your legs cannot move any faster, effectively hitting your red line.

The same thought process can apply to your spur gear which takes the place of the cassette in the bicycle analogy. A bigger spur gear makes it easier on your motor and gives quicker acceleration but less top speed. A smaller spur gear gives a higher top end but slower acceleration and places more load on the motor.

Choosing the appropriate gearing is dependent on many factors including your choice of motor and where you plan on driving the car. Long straight speedruns call for taller gearing then tight twisty circuits for example. It is usually a case of finding the right ratio for your given conditions and driving style through experimentation. Basically you want to try and find the right compromise between acceleration and top end without placing so much stress on the motor that it overheats and dies.

YES! This is perfect! Thank you.

 

So - what are common pinion and spur gear combinations for brushed and brushless setups both speed and maybe bashing/track running?

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I'm not sure about the TT-02 as I have yet to acquire one in touring car form, however I find that it's predecessor the TT-01 worked very well with a 25 tooth pinion and a 55 tooth spur using the standard silver can motor on a moderately twisty racetrack.

The same car using the same gearing but fitted with a 13.5 turn brushless motor was considerably faster while still keeping motor temperatures within the normal range.

Given that the TT-01 and TT-02 share very similar drivelines, identical wheel size, similar overall weight, etc, the above gearing recommendations would probably work just as well on a TT-02. If nothing else, they will hopefully give you a starting point for your experimentation.

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Its best to use FDR (final drive ratio) to help pick gears. You'll see in the back of the manual there is a list of pinion sizes and drive ratios, page 19 on the standard TT02 manual. That table shows pinion and spur size, and there is also the internal ratio which is determined by the diffs and diff pinions, I think its 2.6 in the TT02 but happy to be corrected. 

FDR = spur/pinion x internal ratio

(Happy to be corrected, its early and always easier to work out the FDR than remember the formula!)

I run my TA07 in 21.5T blinky class and the FDR is around 3.5 which I get with a 35t pinion and 63t spur, roughly. The internal ratio is different for the TA07 though. Brushed motors require much lower gearing (higher FDR) than a brushless motor. The idea is to get the motor spinning efficiently, if you go too low on the FDR the motor may never get to its optimal revs, too high and its free spinning and you could go faster. 

Lower turn motors, whether brushed or brushless, will need a higher FDR. So i run my 21.5T at 3.5 FDR but would use a smaller pinion for 13.5T motors and aim for around 6 I think. No idea what yoir 30,000 rpm motor would need sorry.

Gearing is important, I was so disappointed when I put a 13.5T in my TT02B, but then increased the pinion size and it seemed to fly. The laptimes aren't that different between stock, superstock and mod, the difference is the stock cars are geared really aggressively and its harder on the gear compared to mod which just has a fast motor

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I need to send all my TT01 and TT02’s to @Jonathon Gillham to get them running most efficiently... But for the short 10 minute bursts I get to drive them it probably doesn’t show up their inefficiencies for me to spot them... maybe half hour running would?

For example I just dug out a XB TT01E, but the previous owner had upgraded silver can to a SuperStock BZ Motor - 23 turns.

The car was stock apart from that motor change and had the stock Aluminium 19t Pinion in the plastic motormount... well it was just too slow for me to keep driving longer than 5 minutes on a 6cell Nimh battery so I packed up.

So I had a few options to make it faster... this is my thinking anyway 😂 

1) Run a 2s lipo in place of the 6 cell Nimh battery - but in my experience this only gains a couple more MPH. ( and not sure if the TEU105BK ESC can run 2s lipo)

 

2) increase the Pinion size... this was an option seeing as the stock motor mount can take 19t Pinion (8.35) up to 22t Pinion (7.21). This increase of 4 teeth might’ve been ok but then I’d not be sure about the efficiency aspect etc and I’d still be running a brushed motor on a Nimh battery ( just seems old tech).

 

3) ( The one I went with) Drop in a 3500kv Motor and brushless esc, and whilst I’m at it, increase the Pinion from 19t to a hardened 20t (7.93).

 

I’m still waiting to take it for its 5 minute blast around a big empty car park but I’m assuming it will now be faster than before... but I’ve no idea how good/efficient/ long lasting / self destructing it will be now!!

Sorry to derail the thread a bit... but just wondering if anyone else can see any logic in what I’ve done to gain more speed over the ‘slow’ previous set up?

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I suspect the FDR of 7.21 would be ok for fhe Superstock motor. The silvercans used to run much lower than that,  I was amazed BITD seeing how fast a silvercan could go in a TA02. Of course the 4 slot Johnson was around back then...

As far as inefficient running goes, you can ruin a motor in minutes if you get the gearing wrong. I'm waiting for my orca blitreme to pack up after running it on a wet day and the wheels filled with mud. 6min run, over 120deg and the most expensive run I've ever had. If the motor temps are ok after 3 minutes then they should last 6min. If you are running 30min then drop a few teeth or run less timing on the endbell.

@Jason1145 it sounds like your gearing is about right, you may be able to go up a pinion or 2, that 3500kv is about 10.5T right? Should be fun as it is though

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