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ThunderDragonCy

Philosophical question - when does the restomod lose the essence of the original?

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New Year's Day hand waving. As a lot of you will know I am on a seemingly never ending quest to make my beloved Thunder Dragon handle nicely and consistently. Its got custom designed front and rear uprights, tweaked steering system, and front shock mount to clear the body with twin shocks. To me it still has the essence of the original, but with marginally better handling. Original tub, drive train, gearboxes, and many other parts. Here's the thing - for some reason in my head the iconic blue arms are a line in the sand. They scream Thundershot chassis at me and up to know I have worked with using them. However, I know they are very short compared to modern buggies and yesterday when swapping shocks I did really notice how unbelievably flexy they are. The engineer in me says I should design some longer, stiffer arms and really improve the car, but emotionally I am not sure it's a step too far? If I want a great handling Thunder Dragon why don't I just graft the body onto a DB01 and have done with it! I dunno. What are your thoughts everyone? When does restomod simply lose the soul of the original? 

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When the build loses sight of it's intended use. It's nothing to do with components used or removed.

I had a '78 Escort I changed everything on the car except the shell. It was still my escort even though only 1 component was original. It delivered exactly what I wanted and was my authentic take on a classis rwd Escort.

Keep going with the TD until it is your perfect vision.

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Ever hear of the story/term Ship of Theseus? I suppose there's a point when too much is pulled out of the original that it ceases to be just that. I look at it as the 3 main component systems of any off-roader : 1.chassis  2.drivetrain  3.suspension/steering. When you completely rip out any of these systems, it takes alot away from its originality. Replace two of these system and the character is lost. Sometimes doing one of these isn't so bad. A graphite chassis designed for all the components of a DT02 still leaves most of the DT02 intact. An new gearbox for an Astute still leaves you with an Astute.

I had a WR01 vehicle I was determined to build to Emaxx levels at one point. I sketched out a new, larger, twin battery chassis and a completely new suspension system. At that point, I realized it wasn't going to be a WR01 anymore, but rather a scratch-built truck using WR01 gearboxes. I stopped at that point and just admitted the limitations of that design and enjoyed it for what it was.

Now, I feel, one can modify any of the those 3 systems like crazy and even possibly replace one like the chassis and still keep some of the car's old character. Sometimes though, one of those systems, like the blue arms on the Thundershot are just too integral to the car's look or character. Those flexy blue arms are one of Tamiya's first applications of that material. Also, considering the arm mounts are molded into the gearcases, that flex might help keep them in one piece.

To ramble on...Since I'm in the restoration biz, I'm familar with resto-mods. I can't stand them personally. Just my opinion. Modify an old car? Sure, why not? Its when you tear everything out of that car to make it something its not  that I'm not impressed. Its a lot of money spend jamming a square peg into a round hole. If you want your '69 Camaro to run just like a new Corvette, BUY a new Corvette. You'll have a more reliable, likely cheaper, better engineered vehicle that performs better without destroying another classic in the name of the latest hip trend.

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Restomod? As in Restoration Modification? I've always found this to be an odd term as, literally, if you're modifying something beyond original spec then you're not restoring it to original spec. Don't get me wrong, I understand that you can restore something that had been previously modified, like a hot rod that was custom built out of a standard car 50 years ago by some hot rod legend (or something), but if you're doing further modifications to the project aren't you effectively going outside the strict confines of "restoration"?

Anyhoo, back to the question at hand... I guess it depends on which way you lean, restoration or modification. If you lean toward restoration then you should assume that any modification beyond original Tamiya parts, as they were originally designed and sold, would be unacceptable. If you prefer modification then shouldn't it be "anything goes" like fitting aftermarket upgrades, home made parts/modifications, etc. If it makes things easier on your mind you could go ahead and design your new parts but make sure that they conform to the same visuals that you'd associate with your model, i.e. make your new arms to be longer and stronger but make sure they're made in blue plastic, or anodised blue aluminium, or painted blue (whatever floats your boat).

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In my mind, it's taking away what makes the car that car. E.g removing the mono shock on a boomerang, makes it no longer a boomerang, it's a super hotshot! 

I stopped short of swapping the arms on the Ultima build, with RB5 gearbox, shocks and driveshafts, if I'd used the arms, it would only be the chassis left and it would be back to an RB5 anyway! 

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I think for me the term restomod is restoration / modernisation. My Thunder Dragon is in no way original and its all the better to drive for it, and I would love it to have better performance so I enjoyed driving it even more. However the arms do just seem to define the car somehow. Maybe I'll do the arms and see how I go. Painting them blue is a must! 

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It is only original once. 

A lot of original kits are like triggers broom, they are from the right era but not the some original box.

Your kit you do what you want. If you want to preserve the past make sure all mods are reversible.

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I agree with @Bromley. Its your Thunder Dragon and will remain so.

My Thundershot has from its original-

Gearbox internals, drive shafts, Some uprights, axle's front to rear drive shaft, steering components and a FEW of the original upgraded bearings.

It has had changed:-

Chassis (at least twice) gearbox casings (most more than once) A5 parts several times before adding a steel brace. Up-rated the bushings to bearings and now replaced most of those. Suspension arms and uprights. A drive shaft or two. I have also installed most the upgrades from the Terra Scorcher (adjustable top arms-which I then swapped back to the originals, Tires and now the shell.

So is it MY thundershot ? Sure it is. It still retains most of not all of the original car -even if parts are replaced as most are like for like OR upgrades sold for the car.

Is your Thunder Dragon still your thunderDraagon. Course it is. All the upgrades have been installed by you. Even better you have designed new components and tested in a continual development process.

Is it still a Thunder Dragon. Absolutely, with upgrades. Even better its now a one off.

Keep up the good work and enjoy your fettling guilt free. 

After all others will view my Thundershot as non original as it has been rebuilt using some re-re parts and the shell is now an after market not even Tamiya. Do I care, nope. 

Remember, opinions are like ****holes, everyone has them!

 

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1 hour ago, Baddon said:

Keep up the good work and enjoy your fettling guilt free. 

This is the truth. I hope my earlier post didn't create any negative feelings about whether you should move forward with your development or not. If you enjoy it, certainly do it. I was offering my 2 cents on at what point I felt the "soul" of the original car is lost. Its only an opinion and means nothing. At the end of the day, your happiness with your creation is all that matters.

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@Saito2 I appreciated the thoughts. Especially as you restore cars yourself. I know it's up to me eventually but just couldn't put my finger on why I was so hung up on the arms! 

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49 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

@Saito2 I appreciated the thoughts. Especially as you restore cars yourself. I know it's up to me eventually but just couldn't put my finger on why I was so hung up on the arms! 

Those blue arms are only used on the Thunder series of 4 cars. they are the single thing that is common to all 4 and NO OTHER Tamiya before or since.

As such its the identifier for those cars.

But as you suggest just paint the replacements blue and your keeping the spirit of the series.

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The point I think is that a restoration of an RC car will be restored in such a manner that would fit with how you would have liked it to be if you’d bought it new when it was originally released. Of course adding 3d printed bits is a bit of a far shot from that since it wouldn’t have been possible. But none the less if it’s something you would have liked to be able to do that’s good enough I think. 

If we where talking restoration to recover or improve the cars value however then period correct parts would be a must. And all stock may be worth the most. But is that what you want? If not then the restomod is entirely what you want it to be. Nothing more nothing less. Stuff what everyone else thinks

Juls

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8 hours ago, Baddon said:

Those blue arms are only used on the Thunder series of 4 cars. they are the single thing that is common to all 4 and NO OTHER Tamiya before or since.

As such its the identifier for those cars.

But as you suggest just paint the replacements blue and your keeping the spirit of the series.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. I have such a soft spot for this series and I remember poring over the Terra Scorcher specs and pictures when it was released, looking so like my buggy, but so cool as well. 

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7 hours ago, TwistedxSlayer said:

I agree with your post there. This is still my Thunder Dragon that I got for my 13th birthday, but I think the only original parts are the front bumper and rear shock tower, plus some fasteners! It's still my Thunder Dragon though. 

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I think the period correct variable is a strong one. A lot of those part are NLA or obscenely priced. Example, the 500 and 1000 dollar sets of old school clod gold shocks on the Bay. To make improvements to improve reliability and overall fun (because less time on the bench) is in no way taking from the cars original character, it just allows you to enjoy it more often. In this era of brushless and lipo, we have gone so far past the original restrictions that cars had when a 2000 SCR pack with a mod motor was the hot setup, of course you'll break some more parts. Or, with more speed comes the need for suspension that works at those speeds, to absorb the landing with the greater air you'll catch from those jumps. Even if it isn't outright speed you are after, being able to enjoy the car you want with higher limits still remains in the spirit of the original. 

If value is a consideration, can you really enjoy it the way 14 year old you would have back in the day? Going through mud puddles just because it looks cool, jumping too big a jump...

I'll pose a different question though: If the hop-ups you install came in a bag or box with the two star logo on it, would you even question if there was a detraction from original character? 

I did my CC-01 based Lunchbox because my daughter wanted a monster truck. At 1/12 scale and 2 or 3 pounds, it is perfect for a seven year old. Who was I to say no, in the end it handles great, goes anywhere and she loves it. Did it lose some Lunchy-ness? Sure. Its still a ball of fun on the trails and keeps up fine with the bigger trucks. From 5 feet away it looks like a normal LB. I still plan to refine it further to get some more performance, maybe make a new tub for CC01 guts to make it easier for others to mimic with a smidge shorter wheelbase. Time will tell on that one though.

Stuff what everyone else thinks.. abolutely :) 

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4 minutes ago, geniusanthony said:

I'll pose a different question though: If the hop-ups you install came in a bag or box with the two star logo on it, would you even question if there was a detraction from original character? 

If they were *that* blue for the arms I wouldn't hesitate for a second 😉

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"Its had two new blades and three new handles, but its still Grandpa's Axe."

Terry

 

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I think anything that enhances the car's original character or an aspect of that character, or maybe even put's a slight spin on it is a restomod. Being period-correct has got something to do with it as well, but it's hard to tell where that means. On the subject of "new" parts: What About new tyre profiles that weren't around back then? Re-Re-parts? Blue annodised ball studs compared to brass ball studs? That's virtually the same part, is it not?

Here's another question: is it possible to modify a car in a period-correct way that wouldn't qualify as restomod? Is a hotrodded Ford A still "resto" or just "mod"? What about modifying a Mercedes 190E or BMW E30 to full DTM-Spec? I don't think that Counts, does it?

Personally, I consider my M-01 as on the verge between being a restomod and a modified old car…using some new parts among mostly period-correct one's and a style that wasn't common for the M-01 back in the day. At the end of the day, it's all just genre and nomenclature.

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It could be said that making an RC car drive better(it's intended use) doesn't lose it's essence, it adds to it.

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Well that escalated quickly! Sat down to start designing some longer arms and got out a rear arm out of my TRF box. Just to get an idea about layout. Then I offered it up to the Thunder Dragon, and it looked like it might fit and well, one thing led to another..... 

TRF501 DB01 TRF201 rear arms on a Tamiya Thunder Dragon using DT03 hubs.TRF501 DB01 TRF201 rear arms on a Tamiya Thunder Dragon using DT03 hubs.

Uses DT03 rear hubs (TRF versions don't fit. They hold the wheels axle too close to the gearbox). Just a loose assembly, and the arms certainly aren't blue! But they are off a TRF511 so that kind of counts? Not sure if I will run it as the DT03 hubs would require me to drill out the arms to 3mm to fit a pivot which would ruin them for my TRFs but it's very tempting. 

Thanks for all your thoughts guys. 

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On 1/2/2019 at 7:36 PM, ThunderDragonCy said:

got out a rear arm out of my TRF box. Just to get an idea about layout. Then I offered it up to the Thunder Dragon, and it looked like it might fit and well, one thing led to another..... 

Love it when that happens! 😎

 

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Well the rabbit hole was truly dived down. So much for philosophical blue arms eh? 

My Thunder Dragon, with full TRF501 suspension front and rear

Tamiya Thunder Dragon with TRF501 suspension

Its not original, vintage, sympathetic or anything like that. What it is though, is mine, and it's also chuffin brilliant! 

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2 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

Its not original, vintage, sympathetic or anything like that. What it is though, is mine, and it's also chuffin brilliant! 

Modernised 🤔

Whatever you decide to call it, if you're happy with it, job done 👍

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