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Tamiya Blackfoot and ORV MIP Telescopic CVD Axles - Data Collection

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I wanted to let you know that right now, we are in a data collection phase for another upgrade to the ORV family of cars. MIP is looking to expand their portfolio to some telescopic CVD axles for the Blackfoot and related cars.

Here is where we are right now.

 

1. This will fit all ORV cars with the MIP ball diff installed

2. This will not fit the standard Tamiya diff for reasons that should be obvious

3. An upgrade kit will be offered for people with the Diff already installed

4. A full kit will be available

5. I do not know cost

6. Will only be sold though MIP to keep cost down as this is a low volume product

 

I am interested in your feedback. Right now, nothing is in stone. Not even cad files are created so keep that in mind. Please feel free and pass on the information as this, should it go into production, will be the same presales setup as before. As usual, I will keep people up to date on the Ampro FB Page:

 

https://www.facebook.com/AmproEngineering/

 

Thanks,

Alberto

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This is what I've been waiting for!  I would buy maybe three kits to upgrade the MIP diffs I already have (great idea btw).  Plus at least one full kit and probably more if the price is right.  Even with the excellent diff in place I still have issues throwing the passenger side CV.

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1 hour ago, tamiya3speed said:

This is what I've been waiting for!  I would buy maybe three kits to upgrade the MIP diffs I already have (great idea btw).  Plus at least one full kit and probably more if the price is right.  Even with the excellent diff in place I still have issues throwing the passenger side CV.

I know. It is impressive how Tamiya solved one problem by creating another. Well played. I am curious to see what the pricing will be like. I think these kit from thorp with the diff in the 1980's was $120 or so. That is insane money given inflation. Personally, i think we have a good chance with this. MIP has sold well over a thousand ball diffs, much more than they anticipated....

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So glad to hear that they have sold so many  kits.  I know they took a risk getting into this niche so very glad to hear it has paid off.  I even bought two Hot Shot kits just to make sure they would keep going!

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Finally. The ORV world has been waiting for this. The single most useful upgrade possible. 

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Yeah I'd be on board for this.
means I could maybe use my MiP ball diff on my MB.

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So everyone seems to know the issue that this is solving, except me. We run a Monster Beetle with the MIP ball diff (great piece of kit, well worth the investment) and it runs great. Its just on a silvercan and we haven't had any issues. What will these fix?

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I would certainly be interested but cost would be a factor - the item cost isn’t necessarily the issue but the customs charges. I bought my MIP diff through Modelsport here in the U.K. and was probably better for it than buying direct.

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Sounds like a great mod for the ORV. But will there be another run of Diffs? as all the searches I’ve done lately are all out of stock. 

It would be a little while before I bought one but I also considered buying the Diff Rebuild kit, Centre gear & out drives separately, this would leave me short if the bearings though from what I can make out of the images of each.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

What will these fix?

Drive shafts popping out. Common ORV issue due to excessive play in the trailing arm pivots. 

 

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17 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

So everyone seems to know the issue that this is solving, except me. We run a Monster Beetle with the MIP ball diff (great piece of kit, well worth the investment) and it runs great. Its just on a silvercan and we haven't had any issues. What will these fix?

Like what @s-pcs said, the driveshafts will not stay in any time you have anything other than the stock motor and stock shocks with appropriate inner spacers. They are a miserable fix to the hex drive rounding problem. It is why I did this to stop them falling out. 

29657166234_63312f34cd_b.jpg

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24 minutes ago, Pintopower said:

29657166234_63312f34cd_b.jpg

The day you start offering this setup in these colors as a complete kit with all hardware included, I'll be first in line to buy at least one... Right now, the long list of extra bits and pieces not to mention color options in the eBay description exceeds my attention span, or at least prevents me from making impulse purchases... Shame, really, 'cause that is probably the coolest, most factory-looking ORV upgrade anyone ever came up with. 

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well good news .. as any kit to add onto the already upgrades is a extra .. so I will be putting in for two at first , leading to extra kits later ..

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On 1/11/2019 at 6:27 AM, Jonathon Gillham said:

So everyone seems to know the issue that this is solving, except me. We run a Monster Beetle with the MIP ball diff (great piece of kit, well worth the investment) and it runs great. Its just on a silvercan and we haven't had any issues. What will these fix?

In my experience, they either pop put randomly during certain conditions like accelerating whilst turning and jumps etc or if you attempt to stop it with o rings, the dog bones will start to bind and causs a stiff point when the suspension is about halfway through it's travel.

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I just found this thread, any updates???? I would be in for three with the idea of maybe increasing the rear suspension travel.

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I never heard anything more about it.  I have even emailed MIP a couple of times with no indication this got beyond the investigation phase.  @Pintopower hasn't been around in a while but i believe he is still doing Shapeways and YouTube videos.

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It would be a good add-on and as the BF & MB are still being sold I’m sure there would be a few of us interested in these if the price was right

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Sorry for not replying here, I seldom visit any more. MIP is still heavily selling the ORV diff. The initial build we estimated at 500 was a bit...off. 10,000 units later, it seems we were right that the stock diff is trash. The issue with the telescopic rear axles is cost and need. 

1. Cost - These will need modifications to the standard MIP diff to those who already own one. You would need new  drive cups plus the drive shafts and the axle. That is 8 large parts to have tooled up, plus all the hardware associated. As MIP does all work in house, in the USA, from sourcing materials to CAD design to Manufacturing to shipping, they cannot compete with the mindset that this should cost a fiver from eBay or Alibaba. This would be costly.

2. Need - The reason that the ORV diff has sold like crazy on a car that is 2.3 million years old is that it is not a nice thing to have, it is a thing you need to have if you plan on running your ORV until the next ice age. Sure you can shim/machine/glue/add gum....blah blah blah....all a waste of my time. I need solutions, not band aids. This is the reason the MIP diff on the Hotshot was not a success. The MIP diffs on the HS were neat to have and made the car better but they were not a "need". There was a "need" for the ORV cars. Though Tamiya needs to sucker punched for somehow making axles WORSE than the hexes, there are indeed ways to keep the axles in there. Limiting shock extension is an easy way and not running a motor pulled from a Tesla is another way. I was so annoyed by it that I developed the Double Wishbone rear end so yeah, it *******ed me off too. 

The fact is, if this sells for $100 bucks, how many will move? $120? Don't get me wrong, it took me 6 years to convince MIP to build the Super Ball diff and I have been at it for years again about more crap Tamiya designs but there is a reason all the vintage upgrade parts come from overseas.

Who knows....I mean I am going to have lunch with Eustace next month....

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Hey @Pintopower good to see you here again!  What about longer drive shafts for the CVDs?  That would go a long way to eliminating the need for the telescoping shafts themselves?  Not sure if it would cause other issues but it is a thought.  Also, my sincere thanks to you and Eustace for the diff as it is.  It has been a fantastic addition to my Monster Beetle and really stepped up my ability to run it trouble free.

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Glad to see you here @Pintopower.

On 8/16/2022 at 2:12 AM, Pintopower said:

2. Need - The reason that the ORV diff has sold like crazy on a car that is 2.3 million years old is that it is not a nice thing to have, it is a thing you need to have if you plan on running your ORV until the next ice age. Sure you can shim/machine/glue/add gum....blah blah blah....all a waste of my time. I need solutions, not band aids. This is the reason the MIP diff on the Hotshot was not a success. The MIP diffs on the HS were neat to have and made the car better but they were not a "need". There was a "need" for the ORV cars. Though Tamiya needs to sucker punched for somehow making axles WORSE than the hexes, there are indeed ways to keep the axles in there. Limiting shock extension is an easy way and not running a motor pulled from a Tesla is another way. I was so annoyed by it that I developed the Double Wishbone rear end so yeah, it *******ed me off too.

 

Thank you for confirming a suspicion that I had about the Hotshot diffs. I mean absolutely no disrespect to you or MIP but I must admit, I was puzzled by the introduction of the Hotshot diffs from a sales perspective. They were not a "need" and since the Hotshot series is not competitive where the performance benefits of the ball diffs might show up I was worried about their sales numbers. The Blackfoot, with its lower price tag and high popularity in the US plus more faulty drivetrain would be ideal to concentrate on. The same diff is faulty in the FAV/Wild One as well, but again, I doubt the sales numbers of those cars match that of the ORV cars. 

Tamiya, in many ways, made things worse with the inclusion of the universal swing shafts on the Blackfoot in place of the dogbones found in the regular Frog rerelease. They don't even have the same depth of dogbone pin engagement from side to side on the Blackfoot's diff outdrives. Coupled with the larger tire loads and the flexible rear trailing arms, the universals always seemed at risk of popping out. In this case, in my humblest of opinions, telescopic rear axles would be absolutely ideal and I would think would sell better than Hotshot diffs (although I can see amortizing the Hotshot diff's cost by it sharing parts with the ORV diff already in production, making the telescopic drives more of a risk and requiring more development work).

But in the end, without sales numbers from Tamiya, we are guessing. Putting up polls on popular sites might be the only way to collect hard data on actual potential sales numbers. It is a tricky situation and I greatly applaud your hard efforts @Pintopower lobbying MIP for these badly needed parts as well as MIP themselves for taking the risk.

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Well, that's a shame, they would have been a nice thing to have to get around the juddering problem as well.

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