Top Force Gear Diffs - Parts advice.

[Man1c M0nk3y 564]

Hoping someone can clarify before I spend more money!

I was going to build the TF for myself and as such built the ball diffs with some fancy ceramic balls and pro thrusts however plans have changed and I’m now building it for my daughters to use and am thinking for ease and less messing I’ll swap the diffs over to geared. 

I’ll need two sets of bevel gear set 50602 with the correct input for the TF’s outdrives. 

Where I’m coming up stuck (kind of!) is the gear case’s. The easy solution is to just grab the G parts bag from the Manta Ray with all the plastic gear parts in however when building the TF up I did the recommended swap to the 4wd Touring and Rally parts (50529) to remove the metal gear and in that parts bag there is already one gear case which looks right. Can anyone then confirm if it is?  

If it is indeed right I can just buy another of 50529 and save a couple of £’s. 

Equally can anyone confirm any other diff gear cases that will work. I’ve compared against my DT03 case and they are different. The Manta Ray case and the one I have from the 50529 set has a smooth edge/lip all around one edge whereas the DT03 one in toothed from top to bottom. 

Cheers for any advice. Worst case I’ll buy the G parts bag but if cheaper methods exist then I’m all ears!

[ThunderDragonCy 7881]

It's definitely the gear diff casing and cover on 50529. 

[Man1c M0nk3y 564]

1 hour ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

It's definitely the gear diff casing and cover on 50529. 

Cheers Cy. 

I assumed it was right/same but just wanted to clarify. 

Only a few £ saved but every little helps!

[Saito2 6686]

I'll add that leaving a ball diff in the rear is not a bad idea as it adds a little "cushion" to the DF01 driveline (since it lacks a slipper). The standard ball diffs should be the style that are simply tightened down and left that way if I remember the instructions properly. Depending on the power you're running through it, I don't recall them being very maintenance intensive.

[Man1c M0nk3y 564]

@Saito2 interesting. 

I vaguely recall reading that they could be a pig and need tweaking every few runs and wanted to avoid that when the kids just want to grab a quick mess about. 

If they aren’t really that temperamental however I’d consider leaving them or maybe run just the rear one like you mention. How is that likely to affect the running? Will it make no noticeable difference?

Power wise it’ll be nothing silly now it’s for the kids. A 13.5t Speed Passion possibly. Still  running NiMH batteries but probably move over to LiPo at some point. 

[Mokei Kagaku 2706]

I fully agree with Saito. As a matter of fact, after getting experience with the Manta Ray (geardiff front and rear as stock), we actually recommended customers to fit the  balldiff in the rear to reduce the strain on the drivetrain. For the DF01, the balldiff is virtually as essential as fitting full ball bearings. Also, if assembled correctly, including tightening the screw all the way down (the Tamiya balldiffs suitable for the DF01 chassis are NOT adjustable), the balldiff is practically maintenance free. Most people having trouble with it and complaining, considered it to be adjustable and didn't tightening the screw properly all the way down although the instructions clearly tell the customer to do so. 

[Man1c M0nk3y 564]

@Mokei Kagaku thanks. Informative. 

Safe to say I’m starting to disregard the idea then. From experience then, would you say the geared front/ball rear is worthwhile or is that more a case of cost of swapping both ends on the Manta Ray?

When you say fully tightened down. Do you literally mean until you can’t tighten anymore?

I followed this guide...

https://tamiyabase.com/forum/forum/11-technical/3309-tips-and-tricks-on-re-building-a-ball-diff.html

Any good or is it likely I will need to tighten the diff(s) more?

Really appreciate the feedback here. Thanks.

 

[Mokei Kagaku 2706]

30 minutes ago, Man1c M0nk3y said:

@Mokei Kagaku thanks. Informative. 

Safe to say I’m starting to disregard the idea then. From experience then, would you say the geared front/ball rear is worthwhile or is that more a case of cost of swapping both ends on the Manta Ray?

When you say fully tightened down. Do you literally mean until you can’t tighten anymore?

I followed this guide...

https://tamiyabase.com/forum/forum/11-technical/3309-tips-and-tricks-on-re-building-a-ball-diff.html

Any good or is it likely I will need to tighten the diff(s) more?

Really appreciate the feedback here. Thanks.

 

I'd say the guide at Tamiyabase is appropriate for most adjustable ball diffs. However, the guide is ironically not very appropriate for the "Manta Ray Balldiff" and "TA03 Balldiff", which are Tamiya's own balldiffs for the DF01 chassis and the specific type used in the guide!

With "fully tightened" I mean all the way down until the screw stops, then tightening slightly more, but to not overdo it and risking stripping the threads, using the Tamiya wheel wrench is a good idea to limit the leverage and thus the torque you manage to apply.  

The onepiece thrust bearing recommended in the Tamiyabase guide is a significant improvement over the multipart thrust bearing (both the full metal and the plastic disc ones). However, your daughter should get ample mileage out of the balldiff with the standard thrust bearing too.

As for fitting a balldiff up front, it's not essential for durability. After all, the load is primarily on the rear gearbox when accelerating hard and that's when the balldiff is needed the most to reduce strain. That is, unless you have an ESC with full speed in reverse and the car is run as hard backwards as forwards, which is very unlikely! ;-) For normal "fun" running with a DF01, I'd fit a balldiff in the rear and a geardiff up front. 

Also, I may have overlooked it in the Tamiyabae guide, but just to be sure; cleaning the parts with WD40, as recommended in the guide, is perfectly OK, but the parts should then be degreased before (re-)assembly. You definitely don't want WD40 residue in the balldiff as it's a recipe for slipping and premature wear!

[Man1c M0nk3y 564]

23 minutes ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

I'd say the guide at Tamiyabase is appropriate for most adjustable ball diffs. However, the guide is ironically not very appropriate for the "Manta Ray Balldiff" and "TA03 Balldiff", which are Tamiya's own balldiffs for the DF01 chassis and the specific type used in the guide!

With "fully tightened" I mean all the way down until the screw stops, then tightening slightly more, but to not overdo it and risking stripping the threads, using the Tamiya wheel wrench is a good idea to limit the leverage and thus the torque you manage to apply.  

The onepiece thrust bearing recommended in the Tamiyabase guide is a significant improvement over the multipart thrust bearing (both the full metal and the plastic disc ones). However, your daughter should get ample mileage out of the balldiff with the standard thrust bearing too.

As for fitting a balldiff up front, it's not essential for durability. After all, the load is primarily on the rear gearbox when accelerating hard and that's when the balldiff is needed the most to reduce strain. That is, unless you have an ESC with full speed in reverse and the car is run as hard backwards as forwards, which is very unlikely! ;-) For normal "fun" running with a DF01, I'd fit a balldiff in the rear and a geardiff up front. 

Also, I may have overlooked it in the Tamiyabae guide, but just to be sure; cleaning the parts with WD40, as recommended in the guide, is perfectly OK, but the parts should then be degreased before (re-)assembly. You definitely don't want WD40 residue in the balldiff as it's a recipe for slipping and premature wear!

Thanks. Very helpful and again informative. 

All new and a learning exercise this for me. 

I already built the diffs up with the one piece thrust and with ceramic balls as I was going to use it myself, plus I got carried away a little (!). 

Think I’ll consider a geared front and keep that ball diff as a spare for now then. 

I’ve had no need to clean parts yet but will keep the WD40 advice in kind for when the time comes. 

Thanks again. Appreciate the help. 

[Saito2 6686]

That's what I run in my Top Force, gear diff up front, ball diff in the back. I figured there must be something to it as Tamiya themselves started adding ball diffs to the back of the TA02T.

[Man1c M0nk3y 564]

22 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

That's what I run in my Top Force, gear diff up front, ball diff in the back. I figured there must be something to it as Tamiya themselves started adding ball diffs to the back of the TA02T.

Cool. I assume it’s been fine then seeing as you don’t say you swapped back to both ends being ball diffs. 

Think I’ll go with that then and seeing as I’ve alread got one gear diff case it’s just the bevel gear set I’ll need to pick up. 

Edit: @Saito2 do you run any putty or thick oil in the front diff or just greased?

[RCvet 63]

I am going to be building up my TF shortly for black carpet with 13.5T brushless.  I am going to keep ball diffs for now and see how it goes as well.  I like the idea for easy tuning.  I have a set of gear diffs ready to go should they not hold up well but I will try.  

[Saito2 6686]

2 hours ago, Man1c M0nk3y said:

Edit: @Saito2 do you run any putty or thick oil in the front diff or just greased?

At the moment, I'm just running ceramic grease but I haven't run it much as its quite cold here this time of year. This summer I might mess around with different greases like anti-wear grease.

[Man1c M0nk3y 564]

Cheers. I’ll build just grease for now. It’s the kids that’ll be using it mainly so no point messing too much. 

[FCUL78 0]

I’ve somehow strip the pressure plates of my Top Force’s rear diff. I just couldn’t get spares locally. 

Does the Manta Ray ball diff set 53070 or TA03 Ball diff 53267 fit? 

Direct drop in replacement?

[Rich_8717 114]

4 hours ago, FCUL78 said:

I’ve somehow strip the pressure plates of my Top Force’s rear diff. I just couldn’t get spares locally. 

Does the Manta Ray ball diff set 53070 or TA03 Ball diff 53267 fit? 

Direct drop in replacement?

The manta ray ball diff is exactly the same so that will be fine, not sure if TA03 fits but I doubt it.

You can buy the pressure plates off ebay if you just want to replace it, I've picked up a few because the modern ones aren't cast very well and I've stripped two myself in my re-re top force.

[GTodd 1349]

The Top Force ball differentials are pretty bomb proof. Seriously, after nearly 30 years of on and off use I finally had to rebuild ONE. 

[Snappy1 966]

17 hours ago, Rich_8717 said:

The manta ray ball diff is exactly the same so that will be fine, not sure if TA03 fits but I doubt it.

You can buy the pressure plates off ebay if you just want to replace it, I've picked up a few because the modern ones aren't cast very well and I've stripped two myself in my re-re top force.

The TA-03 ball diff is a direct drop in , one of my TF Evo's runs a pair of 03 ball diffs, they are extremely reliable and I have never had an issue with 2 years brushless run time

[Rich_8717 114]

5 hours ago, GTodd said:

The Top Force ball differentials are pretty bomb proof. Seriously, after nearly 30 years of on and off use I finally had to rebuild ONE. 

Yeh the diffs in my original top force have never been rebuilt and are totally sound, even with a brushless in it, I retired it becuase the plastics were getting brittle and built a re-re and have stripped two of the new pressure plates in less then a year. The new parts are poor quality unfortunately, no two ways about it.

5 hours ago, Snappy1 said:

The TA-03 ball diff is a direct drop in , one of my TF Evo's runs a pair of 03 ball diffs, they are extremely reliable and I have never had an issue with 2 years brushless run time

Good to know, I might get a couple myself. Thanks.

[StueyS 41]

A quick question regarding the TA03 ball diff in the Top Force.  Can you use the original TF diff gear with the TA03 parts,  as it looks like the TA diff gear is narrower? I race mine so strength is important. Thanks :-)

 

[Snappy1 966]

16 hours ago, StueyS said:

A quick question regarding the TA03 ball diff in the Top Force.  Can you use the original TF diff gear with the TA03 parts,  as it looks like the TA diff gear is narrower? I race mine so strength is important. Thanks :-)

 

No, they are not compatible, either one or the other.

Yes the 03 diff gear is narrower, I was a bit worried when I first installed them, but 2 years with a 8.5 T lipo setup and they are as new and I haven't replaced any other gears or internals, I am also running a splitter and carbon hollow shafts

[StueyS 41]

OK that's fine then thanks Snappy :-)

 

[FCUL78 0]

On 2/24/2019 at 12:26 AM, StueyS said:

A quick question regarding the TA03 ball diff in the Top Force.  Can you use the original TF diff gear with the TA03 parts,  as it looks like the TA diff gear is narrower? I race mine so strength is important. Thanks :-)

 

Yes you can. That’s what I did.