The Buggy Damper Thread.

[Nick-W 1857]

5 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

Has anyone converted the original Buggy Aeration dampers to CVA using some oil seals? I had some on my TRF201 and TRF211 and liked them, but can't be bothered with constantly rebuilding them. There are some for a good price on PJ, and the TT02B/DF03 dampers are out of stock. Anyone got any experience of this? @Juls1?

Yes. On my Df-03. Brought from PJ as well (why do they use that photo of a damaged box?). I drilled them out originally to use them as aeration shocks but couldn’t get them to feel quite right. One set of TRF seals later and they’re holding up brilliantly. I recommend them. 
 

[Juls1 1718]

6 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

Has anyone converted the original Buggy Aeration dampers to CVA using some oil seals? I had some on my TRF201 and TRF211 and liked them, but can't be bothered with constantly rebuilding them. There are some for a good price on PJ, and the TT02B/DF03 dampers are out of stock. Anyone got any experience of this? @Juls1?

I’ve not tried this, the black trf bladder might be a option or the 10mm version in cva front dampers/df03 dampers.  but the lid is not really made for this i don’t know how well it will it work, it’s possible it will simply pinch the bladder into the body.

[BuggyDad 5926]

On 11/7/2022 at 5:39 PM, Cynan said:

Great thread. Thank you @Juls1 for all your hard work.

I was wondering if anyone could explain the differences and when you'd use each type of o/x ring that is available? I've had a look round and cannot see this information anywhere and this seems like a perfect place to put it.

From what I can gather..

54384 - black o rings
42259 - red (orange to some?) o rings
53574 - TRF damper rebuild kit with clear o rings
42214 - blue x-rings for silicone oil
42215 - blue x-rings for mineral oil
42374 - blue VG o rings for diffs
42359 - navy blue VG o rings

I know the black ones are hard and great for perhaps shelf queens, but little else and I've always used red/orange o rings over these. I've never had any of the others and I don't find that the descriptions on Tamiya's site very helpful, so where would you use them and why?

Thanks all.

I hadn't seen this post before but had been thinking about the same thing. So recently I have tried some little tests, of assembling but not filling the shocks and feeling their resistance through just friction on the shaft, comparing two seal assemblies side by side. You can really feel the difference. Then I have filled and fitted shocks and seen some differences on the cars in practice (so I think these effects are big enough that they are by no means dwarfed by the larger forces once springs, dampers and the mass of the car are applied). 

Red o-rings (as come with the shocks) vs blue x-rings (42214) on buggy big bores (2wd unfinished project buggy):

Very noticeable difference in feel between those and the x-rings. I didn't fill and fit to a car with o-rings, just the x-rings. They feel lovely although I have yet to complete and run the car. 

2 red o-rings vs a blue x-ring (42214) with a white shaft guide (84292) on CVAs (Blitzer based Falcon):

Very noticeable difference in unfilled feel again and once filled they required a change in oil to achieve similar damping (extra friction adds to damping force as well as adding a stiction effect). For me, these CVAs have finally improved to the point that they're genuinely working "right" - I may still have some setup issues but shock quality isn't the limiting performance factor. They also have well-fitting pistons (42332 blanks on the rear, drilled 3x1mm, 53573 front) which as well documented is critical. And shims to take out piston play. The car had previously been run with the o-rings, I have yet run it in its new setup. Noted that you could try with one o-ring and a shaft guide as a halfway house. 

Clear (53574) vs x-rings (42214) on DF-03 aluminium shocks (well used shocks on a DT-03):

I tried this on a rebuild of these quite well used shocks and the difference in feel was again substantial. I had previously had red o-rings in them but I didn't refit them clean for this test. I never filled and mounted them with the clear o-rings, just assembled them for a squeeze test. On my DT-03 fronts (car is very nose-light) the friction with red o-rings was enough that they wouldn't return when the car was lifted after sitting. This is no longer the case with x-rings even after being left for days. Again the change was enough to necessitate a different oil. I think (but can't tell you with real science behind me) that I can tell the difference in driving, even when I've aimed to get damping the same. However what I can also now do is up the damping a little as well. Previously any attempt to do so would've overpowered the soft springs with shaft friction. 

No leaking on any of them that I have noticed yet. 

Still to be looked at: BBX shocks, which I think have clear o-rings as stock and work nicely, so are not a priority. 

My conclusion

Each time I have compared any o-ring set up vs X-rings, there's been a real difference. The amount of difference has seemed broadly similar each time, although the effect of the difference is probably greater at the light front end of a 2wd buggy, especially where the softest springs are in use, because the relative impact of the change (vs lower spring/damping forces) is going to be more.

Therefore I think I can conclude that the x-rings are much better than any of the o-rings I've tried. I also have an untested hypothesis that the various higher performance o-rings don't differ from each other by anything like as much. I haven't tried the blue o-rings yet. They should be the best o-rings I guess but I'd be surprised if they came close to the X-rings.

The only shocks I've genuinely run in both seal cases are CVAs and DF-03s. So it could also be that the better shocks like big bores (maybe BBXs too) are less affected by these changes, if perhaps they are better built overall and therefore shaft friction is less of a problem. I suspect it's a moot point though, because if you're building high end shocks you're going to need less of a justification to fit the small upgrade of X-rings. 

[ThunderDragonCy 8383]

@BuggyDad Excellent gen there. Thanks. Which x rings did you get? 50 or 70 durometer? 

[BuggyDad 5926]

21 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

@BuggyDad Excellent gen there. Thanks. Which x rings did you get? 50 or 70 durometer? 

I got the 50 durometer ones that are for silicone oil. I think 70 is for mineral oil. Am I right that pretty much all shock oil is silicone? The ones I checked were, anyway. 

[MixMasterMax 1]

The Buggy Aeration Damper Set (#54028) comes with a cap that has a hole for a bleeding screw, but which is sealed and only works if you actually drill a hole into the cap in order to connect the bleeding hole with the chamber of the damper, as is mentioned at the beginning of the thread. Looking around some of the manuals, I've found that the TRF 417 manual explicitly instructs the user to drill out the cap in order to use the bleeding screw. However, the instructions for the Damper Set as well as e.g. the instructions for the TRF 501 instruct to leave the hole sealed and to simply fill the damper with oil and screw the (sealed) cap on. Are there any benefits in following the instructions and not drilling out the hole? I note that the TRF 501 is a buggy, while the 417 is not - perhaps that plays a role?

Any thoughts on pros and cons of using the bleeding screw (or sticking to instructions) are welcome before I start drilling and possibly regretting it later...

 

[sparky(2) 21]

Hello, can someone recommend to me what conversion shock tower/damper components with CVa's to use for the grasshopper conversion.  Part #s to order would be helpful as well.  Thank you.

[Twinfan 2017]

Don't you just mirror the Grasshopper II setup?  All the info will be in the manual which you can download from the Tamiya website.

[BuggyDad 5926]

6 hours ago, MixMasterMax said:

The Buggy Aeration Damper Set (#54028) comes with a cap that has a hole for a bleeding screw, but which is sealed and only works if you actually drill a hole into the cap in order to connect the bleeding hole with the chamber of the damper, as is mentioned at the beginning of the thread. Looking around some of the manuals, I've found that the TRF 417 manual explicitly instructs the user to drill out the cap in order to use the bleeding screw. However, the instructions for the Damper Set as well as e.g. the instructions for the TRF 501 instruct to leave the hole sealed and to simply fill the damper with oil and screw the (sealed) cap on. Are there any benefits in following the instructions and not drilling out the hole? I note that the TRF 501 is a buggy, while the 417 is not - perhaps that plays a role?

Any thoughts on pros and cons of using the bleeding screw (or sticking to instructions) are welcome before I start drilling and possibly regretting it later...

I would think that a cap drilled and with a bleed screw fitted will be as well sealed as an undrilled cap, so if you find you prefer an assembly method that doesn't involve bleeding, just leave the bleed screw in and you'll have the same thing, won't you? 

[BuggyDad 5926]

On 2/3/2024 at 4:36 PM, BuggyDad said:

I think (but can't tell you with real science behind me) that I can tell the difference in driving, even when I've aimed to get damping the same. However what I can also now do is up the damping a little as well. Previously any attempt to do so would've overpowered the soft springs with shaft friction. 

An update on just this point, after making the same change to a DT-03, that is going from stock o-rings to one x-ring and a shaft guide, plus well fitting pistons. With the overall level of damping still feeling essentially similar on a drop test* (in this case I'd argue a bit over damped both before and after), the car in driving terms is definitely superior. Simply more grip. From "overly tail happy nightmare" (annoying) to "controllable craziness" (fun). 

So to my simplistic mind what I have here is about the same total amount of damping on a bigger/faster bump, it's just that in the after case it's nearly all oil flowing through holes, rather than in the before case when it was contributed to with substantial shaft/seal friction, and also affected in some way or other by it being "oil around ill-fitting piston" (before) rather than "oil through holes in well-fitting piston" (after). So I hypothesise it's more sensitive on small stuff, and that's changing the driving but doesn't much change a simple drop test. It could be I'm wrong and it's mostly a different total damping level and I've just changed the settings, I'll never know for sure, but I don't think that's it. 

*by necessity though, different oil as well, because in this case it is not a single variable change, since it covers piston fitment, piston style (holes vs edge recess) and shaft sealing. So it's not "one change and test", rather it's "a new starting setup" from which we can test and adjust (but probably won't in this case, since it's a 10 year old's basher and is driving well already for what it is). 

[MixMasterMax 1]

2 hours ago, BuggyDad said:

I would think that a cap drilled and with a bleed screw fitted will be as well sealed as an undrilled cap, so if you find you prefer an assembly method that doesn't involve bleeding, just leave the bleed screw in and you'll have the same thing, won't you? 

Yes, that a good way of looking at it. I was a bit disappointed at first to find that the set seemed to be "hobbled", but then thought that there must be a reason to build it that way besides intentionally downgrading it. I'll probably try it undrilled first, see how that goes and then drill + compare

[G-rem 5]

On 2/19/2019 at 3:19 PM, Juls1 said:

54504 & 54505 Big Bore Aeration Damper

BB Aeration ID:12mm OD:13.75

BB Aeration rear shaft length = 49.5mm

BB Aeration front shaft length = 40.5mm

BB Aeration rear Eye to Eye : 93mm - Travel 28mm

BB Aeration front Eye to Eye : 75mm - Travel 19mm

Hi @Juls1

many thanks for the super detailed review of Tamiya shocks ! 

I'm very interested in Tamiya BB aeration dampers for a custom Tamiya project based on WT-01 chassis but I'd like to know if you can tell me several additional measurements :

- could you please tell me both for BB front & rear the length from upper cap to lower body of the shock, like so : 

 

- you also disclosed the front & rear travels for these shocks, but I would be interested to know if I can put rear shaft with the front body shock (and vice-versa) and see what Eye-to-Eye measurement and travel I would get ? Otherwise : when genuinally built like you did, is the top of the shaft hitting (kind of) the top of the cap ? Or is there still room in between, meaning using the rear shaft in the front body would be possible without too much compromising the eye-to-eye distance and / or the travel amount when built like so ? Not sure if I'm clear...

Thanks a lot for helping me (and to others if they can !)

Regards

G-rem

[Howards 641]

Hey folks - does anyone know which spring sets - Tamiya or otherwise - are compatible with the Re Re Hi-Cap dampers and hardware?

Edit: looks like any spring set for 12mm OD dampers can be made to work. The Tamiya Big Bore spring set is probably a good starting point as it's cheaper than buying individual springs from Associated / Losi / Willspeed etc.

[Juls1 1718]

On 5/11/2024 at 3:27 AM, Howards said:

Hey folks - does anyone know which spring sets - Tamiya or otherwise - are compatible with the Re Re Hi-Cap dampers and hardware?

Edit: looks like any spring set for 12mm OD dampers can be made to work. The Tamiya Big Bore spring set is probably a good starting point as it's cheaper than buying individual springs from Associated / Losi / Willspeed etc.

annoyingly tamiya doesn’t really offer any springs,

the springs for big bores and a bit too big they don’t nicely match the top spring retainer or the bottom. Even more annoying if you have hicap mini’s (front egress/avante etc) then they are 1mm narrower (so bb springs don’t work at all), again tamiya doesn’t really offer this spring size in other weights. I have used gmade xd springs in the past but i think i used their lower retainer. 

The standard springs on cva dampers front and rear will slide over and work ok ish, bit tight so they can rub slightly but they can be made to work.(rear or short cva dampers have a wider bore than mini and super mini, just like the short hicap is wider than the mini, again this spring is a one off size, no spring kits available apart from included in sets).

[DavidJH 26]

I've used silicon oil with red o-rings in my CVA shocks. Is that a mistake?

Also has anyone got any experience of my problem in this thread?

I'm trying to find alternate ball sockets for the bottom of my CVA shocks. Mine have all bent up

[DavidJH 26]

On 2/3/2024 at 12:41 PM, Nick-W said:

Yes. On my Df-03. Brought from PJ as well (why do they use that photo of a damaged box?). I drilled them out originally to use them as aeration shocks but couldn’t get them to feel quite right. One set of TRF seals later and they’re holding up brilliantly. I recommend them. 
 

Can you link to the seals you used please?

[Nick-W 1857]

3 hours ago, DavidJH said:

Can you link to the seals you used please?

Of course https://www.plazajapan.com/4950344535767/

 

[DavidJH 26]

Thanks mate 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[Howards 641]

On 5/10/2024 at 8:27 PM, Howards said:

does anyone know which spring sets - Tamiya or otherwise - are compatible with the Re Re Hi-Cap dampers and hardware?

Months later…my solution 

[Howards 641]

For the minis (fronts on Egress etc) Schumacher vintage spring set is a direct fit and gives loads of options