Ray_ve

Clod/Bullhead motor turns vs speed and torque.

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I was playing in my head with an idea I had...

A clod/Bullhead normally runs twin silvercans (27 turns) combined with a 7.2V battery (or 7.4V lipo).

If you want more speed, you can run a 11.1V Lipo.

But say you want the speed to be somewere between a 7.4V and 11.1V lipo, but you also want more torque overall.
Would it make sense to run twin 35 turn motors combined with an 11.1V lipo? The higher turn count would make the truck slower, but this is compensated by the higher battery voltage. Also the increased number of turns would give extra torque as more magnetic field is generated..

Anybody any thoughts on this, or maybe tried this?

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35t motors on 3s works great in a Clod.  You'll have more speed than the stock silver cans and a bit more torque as you said.  I run 45t motors in one of my trail Clods on 3S and it works great.  Plenty of torque to get over/through obstacles and still enough wheel speed when needed.

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Nice, if I ever need to (or feel like I need to...) change motors, I'll give that a go then. ^_^

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Why not take some low kv brushless if you don't want the speed, they have a lot more torque than a brushed motor.

But maybe its just me, I do not like brushed motors, when I started the hobby I used brushed motors but since I discovered brushless motors I never use them agian, so much more power and torgue and they stay a lot cooler and do not wear that quick, even for my cc-01 build I am using a low kv motor.

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I'm a bit old fasioned in that regard. I understand brushed motors better then brushless, so going to stick with those for a while longer.

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Yes, of course.  I run Deans plugs on every ESC/battery to avoid any issues.  I would not run anything over a 2s Lipo on a Tamiya plug if I could help it.  I run the Hobbywing 860 ESC in most of my brushed Clods, seems to do well.   Excited to try the new 880 ESC they just came out with.

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7 hours ago, dannymulder said:

Why not take some low kv brushless if you don't want the speed, they have a lot more torque than a brushed motor.

But maybe its just me, I do not like brushed motors, when I started the hobby I used brushed motors but since I discovered brushless motors I never use them agian, so much more power and torgue and they stay a lot cooler and do not wear that quick, even for my cc-01 build I am using a low kv motor.

Brushed are a lot cheaper and are more than adequate for running a Clod.  I run brushless in almost everything as well, but most of my Clods are still brushed.  

The other reason I like brushed in certain applications is when running on trails or in deep water/mud.  I'd much rather ruin a $10 RC4WD brushed motor than a brushless setup.  

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8 hours ago, 87lc2 said:

Yes, of course.  I run Deans plugs on every ESC/battery to avoid any issues. 

Same here, in the old days, my buddies and I melted a fair share of tamiya plugs. :(
Now I use EC3 connectors between battery and ESC. And slowely I'll also move to EC2 or EC3 between ESC and motors.

For any batteries I have that are still Traxxas or NiMh with tamiya plug, I use adapters.

 

8 hours ago, 87lc2 said:

Excited to try the new 880 ESC they just came out with.

Great tip on the 880! I want to run the dual hunter, but the 860 ESC I ordered is still not sent out. So I'll cancel that order, use the 860 from the bullhead, and order the 880 for the bullhead. Win-win. ^_^

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8 hours ago, 87lc2 said:

Brushed are a lot cheaper and are more than adequate for running a Clod.  I run brushless in almost everything as well, but most of my Clods are still brushed.  

The other reason I like brushed in certain applications is when running on trails or in deep water/mud.  I'd much rather ruin a $10 RC4WD brushed motor than a brushless setup.  

Brushed motors are not a lot cheaper, these days you can buy a cheap brushless motor for 15 to 20 euro, I have a cheap 17 euro motor in my zahhak for 2 years now, and a 15 euro 380 finned motor In my srb. 

Only big brand brushless motors are expensie, I use brand motors in cars that need more power and that are on the heavy site, light weight cars and cars that don't need a lot of power I use cheap brushless motors.

I have ran a tamiya black sport tuned motor, bought it for 20 euro after 15 runs the brushess are gone and trow it in the bin.

I had 2 35 turn brushed motors in a 4wd- wt 01 that a made for trail running, 2 times in a row a little mud an water come's in the motors and they stop working.

With brushed motors you have wear of the brushess and more maintennance, and the heat up more.
 

Past week I bought a bullhead I am gooing to put some a double brushless in it, its a big heavy car and for me with brushed motors to slow, I respect that others like it with brushed motors an low speed, but I know I am going to be bored with it if I going to run it that way.

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10 minutes ago, dannymulder said:

I had 2 35 turn brushed motors in a 4wd- wt 01 that a made for trail running, 2 times in a row a little mud an water come's in the motors and they stop working.

I agree that the 'open' construction on brushed motors make them vulnerable to dirt.

Since I mainly drive on hardened roads, I don't have any issues with that, but with trail and beach running like you do it will be an issue. And the closed construction of the motors will be a big plus side.

I am very intresested how your bullhead runs on the brushless setup. Keep us updated! ^_^

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14 minutes ago, Ray_ve said:

I agree that the 'open' construction on brushed motors make them vulnerable to dirt.

Since I mainly drive on hardened roads, I don't have any issues with that, but with trail and beach running like you do it will be an issue. And the closed construction of the motors will be a big plus side.

I am very intresested how your bullhead runs on the brushless setup. Keep us updated! ^_^

I want to do that, but  the car have to stay in the box for some months, I have no more budget for it, and a brand new cc-01 to build and I am rebuilding my sand scorcher and grasshopper.

 

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I've been looking at brushless before in the past, got very confused by all the numbers, ordered one with 4300KV (big numbers are better...right?) and put in into a DT-03. Destroyed the car in minutes.

So let me get some stuff straight, as my knowledge of brushless is limited. Please correct me if I'm wrong in any way!

A non-sensored brushless motor has its RPMs vs Voltage expressed in KV. They are typically also advertised as waterproof, as they can be fully sealed with only the 3 wires coming out. From standstil they also have a minimum RPM as rotor position is unknown to the ESC when engaging, causing a non-smooth pullaway from standstil. Timing is neutral, reverse rotation is swapping 2 out of 3 wires.

A sensored brushless motor is expressed in Turns rather then KV, with winding numbers ending in .5. They are typically not advertised as waterproof, as they have the non waterproof sensor cable coming out. From standstil they are smooth as the sensors tell the ESC the status of the rotor. Timing can be adjusted by turning the endbell.

A brushless 'equivalent' of the silvercan is about 2300KV or 17.5T.

A nice more RPM and torque upgrade from a silvercan, given the same battery, would be a 3300KV or 3500KV?

I see 4-pole and 2-pole brushless advertised. A 2-pole is typically more a '380' motor in a 540 size can, and a 4-pole is 'true' 540 size (bigger rotor)?

Because brushless has more torque, you do not need to change the motor pinion to one with less teeth?

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Both sensored and sensorless are both expressed in kv ratings as wel in turns, for exsample I have bought a sensored motor for my cc-01 that is 21.5 turn and 1740kv.

Not every for exsample a 8.5 turns motor have the same kv rating its different  which manufacturers have made it.

They say sensored is much smoother, I have used both if you have a good brand esc and you only bash the car there is not a big difference, I can drive my sensorless cars real slow without cogging, only for crawlers i think its usefull to run sensored or if you do race the car on a track.

voltage vs kv is correct, if you have a 2000kv motor and multiply it to nominal voltage let say 7.2 volts= 144000rpm

The typical 380 motor you can recognize, the can is finned, and there are true 540 motors that are 2 and 4 pole out there, and yes a true 540 motor has a bigger rotor.

You don't have to change the pinion,brushless have a lot more power and torque and run a lot cooler then  brushed, what I do is when I put a new motor in a car the first time i drive it I measure the temp, if its to high I change the pinion for one with less teeth.

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