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Ferruz

Building a new Manta Ray... with driver?

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Hi everybody.
I'm new to the forum but not quite to the RC world. I've been gladly back into it for one year now, after a 22+ years break. I had fun with a Hornet first and re-building and running my childhood Kyosho Bis Boss after.
 Now I purchased a re-re 2018 Manta Ray to try and feel the thrill of a 4WD...
 The kit is still sitting in its box waiting for the usual hop-ups to show up (motor mount, drive shaft, ball bearings and a few more) and while waiting I thought I'd share some ideas and ask you guys for some wisdom and advice :)

I'll be driving the buggy, mostly as a backyard basher (possibly without bashing it too much), so it won't be a shelf queen, but still I'm going to do quite some work on its looks before I put it on the road.
 I know that most people don't regard the MR body as one of the coolest, but I believe it's got potential :rolleyes: I think it's a lot about the right paint scheme, anyway it's possible to enhance those sleek and funky curves... and there's lots of possibilities there. For now all I know is that it's going to be two colours, specifically metallic blue and fluorescent yellow.. still thinking about their layout though.

 First real doubt is about the wheels. For some reason I expected those "speed discs" (again, not the best rims to look at, I know) to come in white and I'd have been ok with it, but in the 2018 re-re they come in an obnoxious primer-ish gray and let's face it, they are literally screaming for a paint job.
 Thing is, it feels quite counterintuitive to paint over buggy wheels, which are destined to spin in all sort of debris, gravel, mud and anything abrasive.. they'd probably chip sooner than later... but still. This problem has been bugg(y)ing me for a while now, but I think I've decided to go ahead and paint those flying saucers anyway.
 Is it worth it in your opinion? I mean, of course there's gonna be some wear/chipping with use and touch-ups will be definitely needed from time to time, but, if I do a proper paint job (including priming and sealing obviously), will it hold decently and last in time or do you think it'll mercilessly chip off at the first contact with gravel?
 While I've already decided to try and go for it, I would still much appreciate your input, is this going to be a stupid waste of my time or does it even remotely make sense... thanks in advance! I'm still unsure about the actual colour, might go for yellow there too.

Another thing I'd like to hear your opinion about: anyone ever tried to fit a driver figure in a Manta Ray? I think I'd like to try... nothing wrong with the box-art black windshield, but I always love it when there's a driver involved, as I find it adds so much to the vehicle, especially in case of a buggy.
 I randomly purchased a Paranoid Perry figure (the Avante's driver) on the bay some time ago... thought I'd try to fit it in the Manta Ray and if it didn't work whatever, no big loss as I really enjoy painting drivers anyways.
 I roamed the web a little but found no info on the topic. As previously mentioned, my kit is still completely unassembled so it's not possible for me yet to get an idea whether a driver could fit or not. I can trim it if needeed, and I also have a spare "torso only" version available, though it'd be probably much harder to attach to the chassis, which I'd prefere rather than to the body shell.
 
 Anybody able to share any knowledge on this?

Thank you in advance for your help :)

I'll happily post pics once the build starts to get interesting, here or in the build section of the forum.

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Yes, I think a driver is a good idea.  There is enough room for a driver figure.  There is a servo and the prop, but a good 2 inches below the top of the canopy.  I'm a fan of having drivers too, so I'm looking forward to seeing your Manta Ray with a driver.   

Painting wheels are not often done, but since you know what would happen, why not?  I'd recommend lacquer paint.  As you may know, there are largely 3 different kinds of permanent paints.  Acrylic is the weakest, and non-toxic.  Depending on the surface, acrylic can be scratched off with a fingernail.  Enamel is a lot stronger.  I painted a diecast car's roof with brown enamel in the early 80's.  Me and my brother played with it for years, and my nephew played with it for years.  This is how much the brown wore out through sweaty palms and sticky drools.  Still, no match for gravel.  

cX9yCGN.jpg

Lacquer based paint is the strongest.  Pretty hard to find. (maybe nail finish clear coat is lacquer? Fingertips do get scratched from keys and coins, yet, the clear coat allows them to last for some time)  Tamiya TS paint is only enamel.  You could use that, and then top it with clear lacquer.  Also, people sometimes use the word lacquer and enamel interchangeably, even though those two types of paints cannot be mixed.  

 

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Driver would be fun. I think the easiest way to mount would be like like the Fire Dragon and drill a hole in the canopy and screw through to the top of the drivers head. 

For wheels, you can wheel stickers to decorate plain disc wheels. They are mainly aimed at racers with their plain disposable disc wheels, but could be a cheap easy option to liven yours up. If you get touring car size (1.9") thry will fit yours nicely (2").

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Manta Ray wheels were always gray, the are white on the XB super Manta ray.

Get some DF03 rims and tires those will last longer.

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Thank you guys for your replies, and sorry for my long intro (relized that with the hindsight). 

 Juggular thank you so much for putting time into your accurate and concise explanation about paints, always good to brush up on such notions.

Lacquer looks indeed like the way to go. There's a clear coating product I've been using for a few years now (not sure we are allow to mention brands in the forum :unsure:) which I find excellent on both wood and plastic, I believe it's lacquer, not sure though I'll double check tomorrow. I've used it to seal the paint on the wheels of my Big Boss and it's holding great so far. It's true that the rims sit high up and cozy wrapped in those ribbed donut tires, but on the other hand they weren't primed and only painted over the 30 y old, fading fake chrome color (I know... but couldn't be bothered) and still they held nicely through 5-6 months of very intense use. That's the sealant I was gonna use in the first place, but I'll look into the lacquers first (and hopefully that product is one).

The stickers idea is also good! I'll look into that too, though I feel more like painting them, but who knows.

 DF03 rims + tires would be good but I kinda wanna put  a stop to the expenses for the moment if I can. it started with Manta Ray and ball bearings only, but before I knew it I found myself ordering more and more hop-ups.. and I know it's probably not over :rolleyes:

By the way, are there any other hex rims that fit the tires of the MR? If I could at least keep the tires I may go for the rims only.

I appreciated the encouragement regarding the driver..  I'm definitely gonna try to fit it!

Today a bunch of hop ups showed up, I barely had time to open the packages but I'm stoked, they look great and I can't wait to start the build :) hopefully very soon.

20190305_235621.thumb.jpg.b66e61e4bd9614a4d0bb5d5f1325e68d.jpg

 

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Nice shocks.  

You can keep the painted wheels for the shelf, so they won't be chipped.  You can simply get a set of runner wheels and tires. 

The cheapest I found is $14 for a set of wheels & tires, delivered.  Here is a pic of my Manta with them.  Unlike Tamiya Manta tires, the front two are narrower than the rear.  I think there are sellers selling the same size wheels and tires.  But I prefer the narrower front.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrome-8-Spoke-Wheel-Hubs-Tires-06010-06026-White-RC-Redcat-Tornado-S30-OB-Buggy/273574985729?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649   

 NQYRVi1.jpg

 

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That'd be indeed a good idea, a set to use and one for the shelf, but it might have "dangerous" consequences as I might end up doing the same for the shocks, the body shell and so on... I prefere to put a limit to the expenses for the moment so for now I'll try to do with what I have. I'll build the buggy like it's for the shelf and then drive it instead, even if that means going through the fevered sorrow of seeing it getting worn. That's pretty much what I did last year with my Hornet, even though I eventually replaced pretty much everything when I finally put it up the shelf to stay (after one year of use and abuse even at -30 he earned it :)), I think only the chassis and the gear box weren't changed.

Your Manta looks legit and sober with those wheels, I'm sure it handles great with narrower front ones.

Those shocks are pure eye candy to me, I admit I only got them for the looks. The lighting in the pic sucks, sorry about that, but the colours are on the bright side.20190307_191720.thumb.jpg.2a7f321b112592bdf171ad16a5208603.jpg

Technical question: I would like to use a GT tuned motor, and the car came with the usual TBLE-02 ESC whose instruction sheet states that it can run brushed motors OVER 25T. Counting a regular wheel/tire setup and that I'll be running on NiMhs will I be fine, being the GT tuned a 25T and not over, or should I encounter problems?

I read here and there that that setup is fine, but wouldn't mind reassurance.

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Gt Tuned will be fine with a Tble02s. I run this set up on both my Ta02 porsche and Tt-02/s runners - although these are touring cars, as long as you are not geared too high off road I cant see you having a heat issue.

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I thought those shocks were Tamiya DF02 shocks but they are in different lengths, so they couldn't be.  They still look quite nice though.  If they look good and perform well too, why not, right?  How much were they?  

If you are going with GT motor, lower gear ratio could be useful.  The 21 teeth pinion would give you 8.5 FDR, so it's not too bad.  But with a faster brushed motors, I'd try to get closer to 9 FDR -- first, to keep it running cool, so the ESC would have an easier time, second, to let the RPM rev higher.  20 (or even a 19 teeth) might be preferable.  Unless you put larger tires there is no need to go down to 18, 17, or 16 teeth.  

I like this Japanese guy's test in below video.    

GT gets a top speed of 22km/h, where as Sport Tuned gets 24km/h.  But GT and Sport tuned very similar in specs, so why?  The explanation is; GT's torque must peak at lower RPM and falls after that. Where as Sport Tuned torque is maintained all the way.  I suspect that if GT had the gear ratio of 9, it might actually go faster (so would Sport Tuned).  The gear ratio of 8 for a 4x4 + on road is a tad on the taller side.  

19000 rpm x 8 FDR = 2375 RPM at the wheels.  The tires are 86mm in diameter, that's 27cm in circumference.  If that turns 2375 times, 641 meters per minute.  The max speed should have been 38km/h.  But why did it get only 22km/h?  That's a whopping 42% loss of the RPM. 

If you choose 9FDR, and lose only 30% rpm, that's 13300 rpm at 9 FDR = 1477 rpm = 398m/min.  Then you'd get 24km/h.  Even though gear ratio went from 8 to 9, the speed would still increase 10%.  This is why people use smaller pinions for faster motors.  

At proper gear ratio, most fast motors would lose about 25-30% of the RPM.  (Stock motors lose less, like 20%, because their RPM band is shorter to start with)  

[NOTE] If you are using a brushless, it works the other way.  You'd want a taller ratio like 7.5 or 7 or even 6.5 for a brushless.  A brushless has massive torque.  But DF01 can't go any taller than 8.5 (unless you get a smaller spur).  

 

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The shocks were about 38 USD included delivery (which in my case makes it pretty good, I live in Canada and it's very different than the US when it comes to shipping costs, they can be a real purchase stopper). At first sight they look pretty legit, the aluminum doesn't feel cheap, oil filled and adjustble threads, we'll see how they perform and if they last but the looks are gorgeous. I made a special request to the seller to substitute the silver springs with neon yellow ones to match the colour scheme I chose for the shell and he kindly did that. Also, the shocks came with an optional soft rubber protection that fits around the shafts to shield them, I don't think it would look very good once installed but am wondering whether it's the case to use it anyway to extend their life span.

Hats off to a once again impeccable explanation, I purchased a 20T pinion soon after reading! Hopefully it won't take too long for it to show up as I'd like to start my build sooner than later.

Regarding the video, I saw it before and I like it too, definitely gives an idea of the motors. Can't help wodering, though, how consistent would these test have been had the guy used say three or four units of each motors. I've ofter heard of how different brushed motors can be from each other (meaning different specimens of the same motor type) and how, especially in the case of the Sport Tuned, there can be a world of difference between one and another and because of that some people would even get three or four altogether (that seems a bit much).

I personally don't know about that, having owned only one Sport Tuned so far (pretty happy with it btw, it's on the Hornet), but one thing I can say: as a little kid I used to race Mini 4WDs at a fairly conpetitive level and I clearly remember how there could be a dramatic difference between two hop-up motors of the same type -following an identical break-in process- so it would kinda make sense to expect the same situation when it comes to 540 type brushed motors.. anyway, just food for thoughts.

 At the end of the day, I decided to go GT tuned just because I already have a Sport Tuned and was curious about trying out another motor.

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The Gt tuned showed up in my mailbox yesterday. It seems a pretty delicate object with all these openings, vents, wires and also an inboard capacitor, and it sure doesn't look like something you can just bash around or throw in the mud. It comes with instructions saying that the brushed should be checked every 9 or 10 full battery runs... really? Oh well I guess I'll see how it behaves and at worst I'll switch back to the Sport Tuned.

On a different note, I wanted to try out some paint schemes while waiting for the spray cans I ordered. I didn't have a computer with photoshop available, but I could do with something else! I've had this tiny Manta Ray model since I was a kid (never really considered getting a 1 10 Manta Ray until a couple months ago so what are the odds), it's actually a Tamiya, no knock off, from 1994. I don't remember ever painting it but apparently I must have done it, look at that awful random military green :D

20190310_190258.thumb.jpg.bbb1966bd802c38ec41dba55a814e7a1.jpg

I wouldn't have touched it had it been in its original condition, but at that point it couldn't do no harm so I decided to try out my paint scheme on this micro model. The result is VERY approximate given the small dimensions of the car and the close-to-zero energy/concentration at the end of the day, but I had fun trying it out and it helped a little anyway :lol:

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Here's the pic, sorry I couldn't shrink them in one post.20190311_224652.thumb.jpg.e4883ed9d699532aace65e37a43e5725.jpg

I am still unsure whether to paint the shell like this or to swith colours, but anyway the colour scheme will probably be this. 

The yellow curves on the upper part of the body should be a little smaller and better proportioned in the real size version of the car allowing for more blue, which would work to balance it out.

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Oh wow, that little thing (which I didn't know existed), can be a perfect paint scheme template!  Pretty nice color scheme too.  

Yes, motors are all over the place.  It's the way they make the motors.  Machine wound armatures can be irregular gaps between wires, and the magnet can have different strengths too.  But the thickness of the wires, and their conductivity don't change.  So, a 25-turn motor tends to have weaker torque than a 23t motor of the same RPM.  My re-re Bigwig came with GT tuned, it's a fine upgrade from the silver can.  RC is a hobby, nobody's life depends on it (unless my wife finds out how much I spent this month).  So why not try all types of stuff, right?  

Looking forward to seeing it done.  

 

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Hi there, just thought I'd share a picture of my restored 1992 Tamiya Manta Ray, only just finished the paint job and driver. Just fitting the tamiya hop up shocks today, then finished. This was my original 1992 first car, and has been restored with all 100% vintage Tamiya parts and full set of all original spec hop up options. The driver is from a vintage Avante 2001 from the same period. Hope you like it. 

20190211_130814_HDR~2.jpg

 

20190314_144550~2.jpg

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6 hours ago, TankPaintballer said:
6 hours ago, TankPaintballer said:

 

20190309_112600~2.jpg

Wow, beautiful color scheme.

This is the best MantaRay shell I have seen. 

 

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LOVE that, shell stunning, with a VERY well detailed and suitable driver and the Vanquish Rims......STUNNING,

Well Done!

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13 hours ago, TankPaintballer said:

 

20190314_144550~2.jpg

The driver in the clear cockpit makes the buggy look to scale.

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@TankPaintballer wow, what a great job!! Very well done!

Thank you so much for sharing, and thanks everybody for your valuable contributions.  

It's good to finally see a Manta with driver. Not only I wasn't sure it would fit, I was also unsure whather it would look cool..  now I know that it does! 

Seeing this gorgeous driver figure really makes me wanna start working on mine, but unfortunately I think that instead waiting for the shell to be done might be better: between its bright colours and the blue aluminum of all the bells and whistles (shiny shocks, motor mount and so on) I can't really picture the final result, so the driver might end up being a precious detail to add an accent colour or to just help me work out any imbalances in the colour scheme.

If anybody has more pics or thoughts, please go ahead! And thanks again

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On 3/14/2019 at 9:51 AM, TankPaintballer said:

 

20190211_130814_HDR~2.jpg

 

20190314_144550~2.jpg

I would have sworn it couldn't be done, but... that is one good-looking Manta Ray! 

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The wheels are almodt done and the 20T pinion showed up in the mailbox. Now all I need to start the build is time (wish that could show up in the mailbox!) ...and a receiver.

I've been procrastinating getting it because I was hoping to find one compatible with my transmitter,  but it looks harder than I thought. Hopefully the collected expertise here can help once again.

I have two Carson transmitters (Reflex Stick PRO 3 and 3.1, 2.4Ghz) and receivers, don't know if anybody is familiar with that brand which seems to be German and sort of a Tamiya partner, at least over there. They look and feel quite cheap and light, but honestly they've both been working impeccably since I got them.

I was hoping to be able to just get another receiver for the 3.1, but they're nowhere to be found online unless you get the transmitter too. I was also hoping that, given the 2.4Ghz technology, no matter what brand most transmitters and receivers would be compatible if properly bound, but it doesn't seem to be the case if I take a closer look at the descriptions in the ads. 

The guy at the closest RC store couldn't give me a clear answer either.

Is it possible to bind another brand's receiver to my transmitter or better forget about it and get another kit?

Another thing is the servo saver: is the factory one good enough or should I replace it right away?

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On 3/21/2019 at 9:02 PM, Ferruz said:

I was also hoping that, given the 2.4Ghz technology, no matter what brand most transmitters and receivers would be compatible if properly bound, but it doesn't seem to be the case if I take a closer look at the descriptions in the ads. 

Each brand has their own 2.4Ghz technology.  Even within the same brand, they'd have certain transmitters only working with some receivers, not all.  So, your closer look was right.  Transmitters and receivers cannot be bound, unless they are designed to work together.  

If you want the servo saver to be stiff, you could zip-tie the C-ring.  But frankly, I don't think it's necessary. 

 

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Thanks a lot for your once again very uselful information. Just purchased another transmitter and receiver online, oh well, I guess it won't hurt to have a spare transmitter after all.

The wheels are being delayed cause I made quite a stupid mistake :ph34r: I painted them a not-fluorescent-enough yellow and had to re-do them white and another brighter yellow again... my bad as I didn't test out the paint. Hence, the final result won't be perfect but good enough for the road. I guess I'll do as you suggested above and just get another set of wheels for the shelf, I've seen that the tamiya hex hub speed discs are available on the bay. They have narrower front ones and different tire thread though, so I'll have to get their own tires too.

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