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SRB Early v Mid v Late vintage differences

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So this is something I’m not 100% sure of, can somebody point me in the right direction to identify easily (if possible) the differences between these variants of the SRB’s.

I have a couple originals awaiting some resto work and would like to identify which variants I have

Cheers

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The quick check is the thickness of the front arms , MK1 are thinner and lighter  than MK2. The rear of the gearbox has tabs rather than the filled in casting where the rear cage lower mountings bolt on , and the front shock towers have small 2mm screws to hold the damping spring on the MK1 , the MK2 has cast lugs . There are other differences but those are the easy to spot ones to start with 

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A couple of other things to look for;

The MK1 radio box has no ‘breather’ holes in the lid.

The holes in the chassis plate for mounting the front suspension towers are a few mm further forward than the MK2 (almost on the front edge).

The steering servo saver metal ring on the front body post is slightly larger - This combined with the different position holes in the chassis means it pretty much hits the front suspension tubes.

Another thing to check (though minor) the wheels will be fit together with ‘flat’ head types screws, by the time the MK2 came out they could be Flat or Philips type heads.

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All good stuff, thanks. Without going out to my workshop to check them out, I do know the Rough Rider has flat head screws in the wheels, with Brass coloured nuts.

will check out the other things listed and take some pics for proper Identification too. Here’s a quick couple I’ve already taken, but probably not enough to ID

33777915698_0ff06d79ef_z.jpg

33777915468_1ea599c68c_k.jpg

33777915218_752b40f66b_k.jpg

33777914808_b741f6fd29_k.jpg

 

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OK so...IMHO there is no such thing as MK1 or MK2 when it comes to vintage kit models. Especially the SRBs.

But let me explain...

  • In a few cases with Tamiya, there may have been distinct cut-off points between so-called "Mk1" and "Mk2" kits (e.g. with the early Hotshot vs later Hotshot). That is to say... early Hotshot kits contained a "suite" of design elements, which were subsequently changed en masse in an update of that kit.
  • However, the Hotshot example is not enough reason to institute the "Mk" system. Because it just doesn't work across the board with Tamiya kits.
  • Most Tamiya kit "changes" were phased in one part at a time. Ditto other brands too. Making it utterly impossible to determine clear cut-off moments between Mk1, Mk2, Mk3....Mk10 etc

Trying to work out Mk1 vs Mk2 vs Mk3 is a rabbit hole. I went down it for years. Eventually, I reversed my way back out, gasping for air! :huh:

I'm hoping to encourage all collectors and fans that the only sane way to designate "differences" in vintage R/C kits (IMHO)... is to talk in terms of...

  • Early Vintage
  • Mid Vintage
  • Late Vintage

I have rambled about this more here.  This in theory applies to all R/C kits. But typically it's the vintage ones that underwent lots more tweaks and "changes" during their production runs.

Why give up on "Mk1" vs "Mk2" for kits?

The final straw for me was when, some years ago, I wrote down a list of all the supposed "Mk1" aspects of the Rough Rider (which I still have). There are about 10 - 15 parts differences.

Then one day I bought a NIB Rough Rider kit which appeared to be a "Mk1" throughout. Only for me to discover that one of the parts (I think it was an upright) which was sealed under a blister, contained ONE Mk1 part and ONE Mk2 part - UNDER THE SAME KIT BLISTER.

This was final proof to me, that Tamiya never instituted distinct cut-offs between changes to kits. And I have heard myriad similar stories over the years from those who always disputed the "Mk1" vs "Mk2" type system.

You can still seek out "Early vintage" though...

Just remember it's not an exact science ^_^   All of this is about estimates.

Terms like "Mk1", "Mk2" are finite terms and imply exact measurements. But nobody knows for sure when kits were changed. So the words "Early", "Mid" and "Late" just enable the conversation to always be more estimate-like. Which is closer to reality.

As for more of the SRB aspects thought to be "Early vintage", I can post my list later tonight.

cheers,

H.

 

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59 minutes ago, Hibernaculum said:

OK so...IMHO there is no such thing as MK1 or MK2 when it comes to vintage kit models. Especially the SRBs.

But let me explain...

  • In a few cases with Tamiya, there may have been distinct cut-off points between so-called "Mk1" and "Mk2" kits (e.g. with the early Hotshot vs later Hotshot). That is to say... early Hotshot kits contained a "suite" of design elements, which were subsequently changed en masse in an update of that kit.
  • However, the Hotshot example is not enough reason to institute the "Mk" system. Because it just doesn't work across the board with Tamiya kits.
  • Most Tamiya kit "changes" were phased in one part at a time. Ditto other brands too. Making it utterly impossible to determine clear cut-off moments between Mk1, Mk2, Mk3....Mk10 etc

Trying to work out Mk1 vs Mk2 vs Mk3 is a rabbit hole. I went down it for years. Eventually, I reversed my way back out, gasping for air! :huh:

I'm hoping to encourage all collectors and fans that the only sane way to designate "differences" in vintage R/C kits (IMHO)... is to talk in terms of...

  • Early Vintage
  • Mid Vintage
  • Late Vintage

I have rambled about this more here.  This in theory applies to all R/C kits. But typically it's the vintage ones that underwent lots more tweaks and "changes" during their production runs.

Why give up on "Mk1" vs "Mk2" for kits?

The final straw for me was when, some years ago, I wrote down a list of all the supposed "Mk1" aspects of the Rough Rider (which I still have). There are about 10 - 15 parts differences.

Then one day I bought a NIB Rough Rider kit which appeared to be a "Mk1" throughout. Only for me to discover that one of the parts (I think it was an upright) which was sealed under a blister, contained ONE Mk1 part and ONE Mk2 part - UNDER THE SAME KIT BLISTER.

This was final proof to me, that Tamiya never instituted distinct cut-offs between changes to kits. And I have heard myriad similar stories over the years from those who always disputed the "Mk1" vs "Mk2" type system.

You can still seek out "Early vintage" though...

Just remember it's not an exact science ^_^   All of this is about estimates.

Terms like "Mk1", "Mk2" are finite terms and imply exact measurements. But nobody knows for sure when kits were changed. So the words "Early", "Mid" and "Late" just enable the conversation to always be more estimate-like. Which is closer to reality.

As for more of the SRB aspects thought to be "Early vintage", I can post my list later tonight.

cheers,

H.

 

Excellent points, updated thread title to reflect same

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OK, so as promised... here some more characteristics of "Early Vintage" SRB kits...

That is, these traits are generally thought to be prevalent in earlier vintage Sand Scorcher and Rough Rider kits, as opposed to later vintage kits, during the original production run of 1979 - 1985.

  • The Front Bumper is black with a "matte" finish, as opposed to the grey bumper.
    • There are 2 protruding plastic pins you have to cut off, on the top side. The underside will have the following embossed writing:
      • "1/10 RC Racing Bugy Made in Japan", or
      • "1/10 RC Racing Buggy Made in Japan"
  • Upper and Lower arms are narrower and the metal is slightly lighter in colour.
  • Front axles have holes for small screws.
  • Gear case halves each have a tab for the rear cage to attach. That's the main difference to watch for, but there are also other small differences in the molding.
  • The clear plastic gear cover is molded differently, and will only line up with the screw holes in the aforementioned early gear case.
  • Rear arms each have a space for a SECOND bearing (on the inside), even though it is not advisable to use a second bearing, and the manual never indicates a second bearing should be used.
  • Front Post has no hold at the tip for the body clip to pass through. Instead it has a slot that the body clip attaches around.
  • Mechanism Box Lid has no little holes near the on/off switch.
  • Screws - there may be small flathead screws throughout the kits (as used for the wheels), not philips head ones.
  • Motor - early kits had an early motor with 2 vent slots at the end of the silver can (not 4)

 

Remember always - it's nice to know if your car is "early", "mid" or "late" vintage. But it's not the end of the world if it's not the earliest vintage though, because they're all still vintage. And any vintage "survivor" is a gem ^_^

A much bigger distinction with SRBs of course, is the distinction between original era kits (1979 - 1985) and remake era kits (2005+). The remakes were officially new Tamiya models with new Tamiya model numbers. And they contain vast differences over the originals.

cheers,

H.

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An SRB could also be a mix of said parts if replacement parts were bought some time down the line for repairs etc ie , original slim front arms with a later gearbox etc or rear arms with no second bearing hole , added later .

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Definitely Kev. Used examples are always much harder to assess - except perhaps in those cases where there has been "one owner" since the kit was bought.

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Cheers for this, I’ve started disassembling the RR, will take pics and post them up for clarification, it’s sounding like it’s an early vintage

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Ok, I’ve snapped a few pics of what I think is being referred to above, it seems what I’ve got here is in fact an early vintage Rough Rider SRB, I had a quick look at the not run vintage Sand Scorcher that I’ve also got and can see some of the differences

Gear Case Halves:

47664446002_c72b951dae_k.jpg

47664444192_2ef18c8dcb_k.jpg

Rear Arms:

47717404141_1f3cd10fdd_k.jpg

Front Shock Tower uprights - small flat head screws as spring retainers:

47664445582_c4ed95e248_k.jpg

Front Arms - slim:

47664445322_054d189ba0_k.jpg

Front Bumper - Matte Black (Seems to be painted?)

47664444892_81427fb960_k.jpg

47717403381_8eecf3ced0_k.jpg

(Unfortunately it is broken)

Plastic Gear Cover?:

47664444392_1163d54d9c_k.jpg

Mechanism Box Lid - no holes:

47717403031_34183d767e_k.jpg

 

Any comments or confirmation most welcome

Keep an eye on my Project thread in General discussions to see the restoration progress once I get started

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Great parts :) I sincerely hope you're going to restore and keep it original, it's a gem. All of those parts are "early vintage" in my book, with the exception of the bumper.

The bumper is definitely the later type (beige) which has been painted black. The earlier, black bumper had the embossed writing on the other side and much further away from the metal bumper rod. And the writing was totally different (as per my previous comment).

Let's go into the bumper issue then...

Original black bumper

If you want an original vintage black bumper, take your time and look carefully at what's out there. Because the original black bumper is fairly rare.  I just checked eBay for you, and by some fluke there is actually one available - but it has a crack in it. Definitely an authentic original black one though. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-Tamiya-Sand-Scorcher-Rough-Rider-SRB-black-bumper-RARE/323784374842 (I am not the seller, and not affiliated in any way).

Note that it is almost impossible to find a NIP original black bumper now. They were definitely sold. But very few show up these days, and if one did it would fetch top dollar - I am going to say US$150+.  (And back in the mid-2000s, I paid even more for one)

Original beige bumper

(Same as you have). A NIP original beige bumper is pretty rare also, but still possible. It should be in the US$50 - US$100 range. Used examples of course, much cheaper.

Both original NIP bumpers come in the original Tamiya packet with orange header card, Part #5135 "Buggy Bumper Set"

Now, onto the remakes...

Remake beige bumper

Common on eBay. These are actually identical to the original beige bumper (including the embossed writing and protruding pins) - except! - Tamiya used a much more glossy/plasticky looking plastic for these, than the original ones. 

Remake black bumper

Same story here. Common on eBay. Same as the remake beige, only black. The writing on them is therefore different to the original black. And just like the remake beige, these are noticeably "glossy black" in appearance making them quite plasticky looking.

.:.

If I was doing the restoration, I would definitely get an original bumper, even if it's a decent used one with minimal bend - otherwise I'd never be happy :P 

cheers,

H.

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4 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

Great parts :) I sincerely hope you're going to restore and keep it original, it's a gem. All of those parts are "early vintage" in my book, with the exception of the bumper.

The bumper is definitely the later type (beige) which has been painted black. The earlier, black bumper had the embossed writing on the other side and much further away from the metal bumper rod. And the writing was totally different (as per my previous comment).

Let's go into the bumper issue then...

Original black bumper

If you want an original vintage black bumper, take your time and look carefully at what's out there. Because the original black bumper is fairly rare.  I just checked eBay for you, and by some fluke there is actually one available - but it has a crack in it. Definitely an authentic original black one though. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-Tamiya-Sand-Scorcher-Rough-Rider-SRB-black-bumper-RARE/323784374842 (I am not the seller, and not affiliated in any way).

Note that it is almost impossible to find a NIP original black bumper now. They were definitely sold. But very few show up these days, and if one did it would fetch top dollar - I am going to say US$150+.  (And back in the mid-2000s, I paid even more for one)

Original beige bumper

(Same as you have). A NIP original beige bumper is pretty rare also, but still possible. It should be in the US$50 - US$100 range. Used examples of course, much cheaper.

Both original NIP bumpers come in the original Tamiya packet with orange header card, Part #5135 "Buggy Bumper Set"

Now, onto the remakes...

Remake beige bumper

Common on eBay. These are actually identical to the original beige bumper (including the embossed writing and protruding pins) - except! - Tamiya used a much more glossy/plasticky looking plastic for these, than the original ones. 

Remake black bumper

Same story here. Common on eBay. Same as the remake beige, only black. The writing on them is therefore different to the original black. And just like the remake beige, these are noticeably "glossy black" in appearance making them quite plasticky looking.

.:.

If I was doing the restoration, I would definitely get an original bumper, even if it's a decent used one with minimal bend - otherwise I'd never be happy :P 

cheers,

H.

I guess the original bumper probably broke the same as this one has, and the owner could only get beige as a replacement so painted it black to match original.

Not that it’s correct (and may be against what some think), but I’m gonna put an aftermarket scale looking bumper on it.

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I read that ebay advert and it annoyed me no end <_<

Seller claims to be an enthusiast collector who has no use for the bumper and would rather see it be utilised, yet starts an auction at $85. 

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4 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

If I was doing the restoration, I would definitely get an original bumper, even if it's a decent used one with minimal bend - otherwise I'd never be happy :P 

cheers,

H.

I know this has nothing to do with the original question, but just let me say this:

Personally, for my own intents and purposes, I couldn't agree more. For me, there would be no other way to go about it, anything less than that and the final outcome would not deserve to be called "restored".

"Repaired", yes, but that's it. Bad enough the original bumper is missing, only way to mend it for me would be to find a correct replacement part, or another mostly complete early vintage car will turn into a more or less generic repaired old RC. 

Funny thing is, that's precisely why I'm not touching vintage stuff. I can absolutely understand why originality is not a big thing to most, especially when "incorrect" spares that can do the job perfectly while looking almost correct are around, and I can see clearly why the whole originality thing would seem pretty extreme to most sane human beings...

I'd still just never be happy that way personally, and for reasons many around here have tried to explain or dismiss many times before, I'd probably end up buying NIB kits before long...

Still, I'd rather buy the re-re than not go 100% on an original car. So thumbs up to anyone who goes thru the pain and effort of keeping vintage stuff original. If I'll ever have the time and nerve, I'll come over there and join you, up until then I'm staying on the re-re side of things where I won't even have to consider stuff like this. 

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