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njmlondon

Converting LWB M38 to SWB

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I believe the earlier short-wheelbase Wild Willy M38 had a different gearbox to the LWB version that came later, but am I right in thinking this has nothing to do with the wheelbase and therefore if you can get the correct short braces to hold the rear arms, you can simply convert an LWB into a SWB? 

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You would need the short braces and the motor mount plates which position the motor and gearbox more to the front. And of course there is a load of other different parts but those ain't necessary for the shorter wheelbase.

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Agree with @waterbok 

Its fairly simple to move the wheelbase but why bother if the other bits don’t make it an authentic SWB ?

Esp when the LWB handles far better !

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Thanks for the info.

And as to “why?”. It was in my first RC guide book back in the day and I spent many hours wrestling with SWB M38 vs Scorcher Debate. Went Scorcher, always sort of regretted it.

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I think it might be easier to just buy the "earliest" Wild Willy you can find. Rather than try to convert to a specific configuration, from the LWB to SWB.

But also. Should we put the SWB vs LWB moniker, to bed? I ask genuinely. It's really up to us, the collectors and restorers, how we define things. And too much specificity around designations, might be a lost cause.

As with practically all variants in Tamiya kits including the SRB series, the whole thing about fixed delineations between one variant and the next seems to be a red herring. There is often no specific cut-off moment for all the changes we claim to know. I have vintage kit proof the SRBs cannot be split into the previously believed "mk1" vs "mk2".

So what about Wild Willy. Was there a perfect cut-off moment in these two widely claimed Willy kit variants, whereupon nothing else was ever changed at any stage? What about the body clip with the waggly bit, was that purely done at the cutover moment from SWB to LWB? :D 

image.png.c7586d23bd745d4469d7d2a2b2d3bcf5.png

I very much doubt it.

Of course that page is an exceptionally great analysis by Jonny Retro, with some pic credits to @waterbok  Brilliant work. It shows the differences. Only question I am asking is: should we continue to define them as SWB vs LWB? Or just call them, more loosely, "Early" and "Late"?

In the past, and over the years, I have seen some members say their willies were both short and long...  I'll start again. Some TC members have said their Wild Willys contained both SWB characteristics and LWB characteristics, yet they were allegedly built from kits. Proof over a 9 year period, from Simensays...

@simensays  Is a significant fan, with more willy experience...

I'll start again. @simensays has seen the most willies... <tomato hits him>

You get the idea. The greatest enthusiasts for this model have encountered blended kits. Making "SWB" vs "LWB" a misleading description. At least when it comes to all the parts we claim were part of each variant. And yes, the kit definitely did undergo an extension in length at which moment, a bunch of parts all needed to change at once. It's just that some of the parts we also thought were part of that change... maybe were not.

Meaning there were other changes to the kit...

Meaning the history of the kit is not split into purely 2 types based on chassis length...

And this may hopefully make @njmlondon 's mission a little easier actually... just seek out the "earliest" one he can find, based on the parts. And that's the best anyone can do ^_^

FWIW, I still own two NIB Wild Willy kits that appear to be early vintage. If you want me to analyze the parts, I can.

cheers,

H.

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3 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

FWIW, I still own two NIB Wild Willy kits that appear to be the early type. If you want me to analyze the parts, I can.

Thanks @Hibernaculum - tend to agree.

And would def be interested in how your two NIB stand up to SWB / LWB thinking 👍

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With the Willy it's  two different types regarding wheelbase and the hardware required other bits that were changed can be found visa versa. But SWB and LWB are two different kits with yes same number but each it's own manual.

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Definitely SWB and LWB due to the changes are recorded in the manuals but I think you can differentiate both into early and late in regard to the habit of Tamiya using parts in the kits to get rid of old stock.

 

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Yes agreed, the manual did change. There are only two different sets of manual steps regarding wheelbase parts.

But there seem to have been kits that contained some of the changes, yet not all. The comments from Simensays have long suggested that this is the case. And it would not be the first time I guess, that a Tamiya manual did not align perfectly with what was in the kit.

So yeah, we are left with uncertainty. And "Early" vs "Late" is the easiest catch-all. With the disclaimer than SWB is a major characteristic of "early".

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Ashtrays in the early production run of GM's last generation of fullsize cars built in Michigan make a distinctively different sound when pulled open than any of those built in Texas. I am not making this up. 

What I am trying to say is - it is possible to know too much about a certain topic, like extremely minor detail changes over the production period of certain industrial products. When you reach the point where the sound of an astray or the shape of a body clip matters, you probably need to face the fact that you are no longer in touch with the reality of 95% of the general enthusiast population in your particular field. 

The vast majority of enthusiasts simply does not care on this level, in my experience at least. But a "major" detail like LWB or SWB, especially if it's in the manual, that's a high water mark, a distinctive cut-off point, one that creates categories that help to sort the market and let people think in absolute, black-or-white terms while ignoring the fuzzy grey area around the edges. 

If you take generalizations like that away, you'll end up with ashtray discussions, and I can tell you, the Texas ashtrays, what were they thinking! Early Michigans, now we're talking. And I'm still not making this up. 

Personally, I could listen to ashtrays all day long. I just think to the general purpose enthusiasts, that sort of stuff is confusing rather than helpful. I vote for a clear LWB/SWB distinction, and for the never changing of one into the other. But that last bit is very personal opinion, too. 

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Enjoyed your post @S-PCS ^_^

So I will just sum up the facts as I know them to be:

  • Early Wild Willys had a short wheelbase (SWB)
  • Later ones had a longer wheelbase (LWB)
  • The manual was updated to reflect this major revision in the kit.
  • As far as some collectors are concerned, examples may have existed (kits) that contained parts from both. However this remains open for debate and is based on anecdotal evidence, mainly from @simensays who may not be here anymore.

So for what it's worth, I had some time to check the two NIB Wild Willy kits I have. Both contained the exact parts detailed here as being SWB. So I cannot substantiate the hybrid kit theory myself. But hey, at least I raised the alert, and did the research. :P  Are there any other NIB Wild Willy kit owners here? @RETRO R/C wanna nerd out, and check your kit(s) too?

On the subject of SRBs though...

Remember I mentioned that I had a kit with a blister containing both a supposed Mk1 and Mk2 part? I took some photos...

image.png.dd0e2e2e9e628a1a21b17a5a4a548f27.png

image.png.f81536ac57e2189fc42bd881c6098016.png

This is from a vintage Sand Scorcher kit. The tops of these axles are supposed to have:

  • Screw holes
  • "supporting buttress"

...on what was allegedly "mk1" spec. Yet this kit has just one axle with the buttress. That's why the "mk" system can't be relied upon for SRBs, and its easier to speak in terms of "Early" and "Late". There can be no more definitive proof, than an unopened blister like that.

And really, broader more relaxed terms... are relaxing. Much like @S-PCS enjoying those Michigans. I love a good nerd out over the shape of body pins (that waggly bit business on the Wild Willy kits is also true!). But I also need to relax, because all these kits smell of the same glorious 1982 cardboard, plastic and rubber.

No matter which variant they are, early or late... it's all vintage man.

*breathes it in*

B)

And so. Keep an open, relaxed mind about these variations, just in case they're not definitive.

But for all I know, you can also keep using the SWB/LWB system for WWs  ;) 

H.

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Quote

I believe the earlier short-wheelbase Wild Willy M38 had a different gearbox to the LWB version that came later, but am I right in thinking this has nothing to do with the wheelbase and therefore if you can get the correct short braces to hold the rear arms, you can simply convert an LWB into a SWB?



The answer is yes.

Converting a LWB Wild Willy to look like a SWB is very easy - and the only thing needed is the short arms stays. Simply by swapping out these two parts, the overall stance of the WW will recemble the original version. I have done this on my WW runner (and other projects), which is  built from various left over parts, custom made parts and so on. If the goal is to build a true SWB, as it was released originally, this is also possible, but the parts list is quite a bit longer, and way more of a challenge to find. Most parts are identical, but there are some crusial parts that differ the two - see the leaflet at the end of this post for a list of the parts.

Personally I like the overall proportions of the first version, and see little or no point in arguing for the fact that the LWB version handles better - both versions handle like crap - or like a childhood dream, depending on how one views it. I love the handling, not because it is great, but because it is excatly how it was when I was a kid.

I've even designed my own arms stays (SWB specs) for one of my WWs


simensays_wild_willy_armstays_005.jpg

simensays_wild_willy_custom_002.jpg
simensays_wild_willy_custom_003.jpg
simensays_wild_willy_custom_0011.jpg

Naturally I have built both versions...

ww_generations_1.jpg

My runner is not a true SWB...

img610_25032015165151_1.jpg
img610_25032015165151_2.jpg
 

 

I made this some time ago, from the scans available (under vintage media) here on TC, showing the various parts that differ on the two Wild Willy versions:

Simensays_WildWilly_ChangeIsGood.jpg

 

 

 

 

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On 5/3/2019 at 1:31 PM, Hibernaculum said:
  • As far as some collectors are concerned, examples may have existed (kits) that contained parts from both. However this remains open for debate and is based on anecdotal evidence, mainly from @simensays who may not be here anymore.

So for what it's worth, I had some time to check the two NIB Wild Willy kits I have. Both contained the exact parts detailed here as being SWB.

H.

Oh, I'm still here..
You document that Tamiya used both old and new parts in some of their kits, that coincides with the time the model was revised, as with your Sand Scorcher. What makes it less likely that they did this with other kits, like the 58035 also? I have a NIB Sand Scorcher myself that has both mk1 and mk2 parts, so I can confirm that Tamiya did this. The WW that I mentioned several years back, that had parts from both a SWB and a LWB was not originally built by me. However, I did make detailed inquieries with the guy I bought it from, he was not a collector, did not ask much for it, and had nothing to gain by lying about the mixed parts - and he insisted he built it out of the box himself. I still own that car.

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@simensays and @Hibernaculum pretty much nail this for me.

If Tamiya blended parts between early / late Sand Scorchers, why would they suddenly stop in WW c. 2 years later ? 

Back then, the manual change was a big step to manage - with cross over parts almost certainly left to modelling nous. 

Also still question why LWB / SWB conversion makes any sense ? 

@simensays is right re handling - it’s splitting hairs to contrast the two - so you’d only do it aesthetically or to sell at odds with economics or authenticity. 

And fwiw the LWB looks better with a Matt Hicks Wild Wendy because the lady has longer legs 😬

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For me it's a question of aesthetics. As a designer, it just looks way better - the SWB that is. The rear axle on the LWB is obviously too far back - a poorly masked, cheap option design and engineering wise, rather than redesigning and shifting weight forward in the chassis, to avoid it flippin' too easily.

As for selling/buying, it is fairly easy to identify a genuine SWB - as with all things - when you know what to look for. 

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