Are these pretty rare bodyshells now?

[Jason1145 3756]

What about this little lot then.... which is the rarest NIB body kit?? 

 

Jaguar XJR-12

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/s659002884

 

Ford Escort Pilot

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/w308716510

 

Ferrari F40

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/t644666823

 

Toms Levin FF

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/r320239225

 

Fiat Abarth Berlina Corsa 1000

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/g344799938

 

[svenb 850]

I'd say the F40 followed by the Fiat.

Ive seen the Toms Levin and the Escort on Ebay few times in the last few years

[Mokei Kagaku 1604]

I fully agree with Svenb if you actually mean the original release boxed body parts sets and your question is really about how rare they are and not necessarily how much they are worth. Because, for these bodies, rarity and value don’t correlate very well.

 

Except the Michelin Escort, all of them have been re-released either in car kits or as body parts sets in plastic bags. For collectors who want the original release body parts set in NIB condition, that doesn’t matter much. Most others, including those who want to build/paint/use the bodies, the re-release bodies will be the cheaper option. This generally reduces the demand for the original body parts sets, having a negative impact on the prices achieved.

 

Also, I don’t know about the Japanese market, but I've always had the impression that most fans outside Japan think the Levin body is a bit boring and undesirable, and during my countless visits to hobby shops in Europe, I’ve seen the original Levin body parts set as (unsold) old stock at very reasonable prices quite many times. With a little patience, it shouldn't be very hard to find the Levin body parts set for 30-40 EUR/USD.

 

Also, though predicting future Tamiya releases and re-releases is next to impossible, the Fiat body is most likely compatible with the new M08 chassis, making a future release of the Fiat on the M08-chassis and/or as a body parts set a logical move. (It was re-released on the M05S chassis, but as it doesn’t fit the M04 and M06, it hasn’t been so common in recent years.)

 

I also think there is a good chance the Jaguar will be re-released again. It hasn't been verified yet, but there exist indications that the Mazda 787 is about to be re-released, and just like the last time the Gr.C chassis cars were re-released, the Jaguar could follow.

 

So, from a value/demand perspective (and not rarity or my personal taste), I think the Michelin Escort is the most desirable, followed by the F40.

[Jason1145 3756]

That's a good insight thanks. , I just wondered as I don't think I've seen these for sale in the UK so I guessed they would be pretty valuable over here compared to those prices in Japan... if they were to sell for those prices that is!

[acprc 235]

Any of the Escort bodies are now commanding fairly good prices. I see all of them on your list quite a lot be it Japan, the USA or Europe. The Pilot, Repsol, Tiger Stripe and WRC bodies have shot up in value over the last few years.

[Stefan(2) 80]

Those are rare ?

.. think i still have that fiat laying around, new, with those plastic parts that make up the engine

787 won't be re-released.. ( or .. re-re-re released ) unless...  magic.

The last batch was stopped dead in his tracks, something with copyrights. 

 

[TurnipJF 2257]

13 hours ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

 

I also think there is a good chance the Jaguar will be re-released again. It hasn't been verified yet, but there exist indications that the Mazda 787 is about to be re-released, and just like the last time the Gr.C chassis cars were re-released, the Jaguar could follow.

 

Please tell us more? I'd love to add a Gr.C to my fleet!

[qatmix 371]

Escort pilot is the most valuable out of those. All whale tail escorts command a good price. The wrc escort does not.

[Truck Norris 1788]

9 hours ago, qatmix said:

All whale tail escorts command a good price. The wrc escort does not.

It didn't used to (a few years ago about £30 for a new bare shell and £50 for the boxed body set) but the prices have gone up. Still some way off the Cosworth but the WRC goes for what I'd consider a very good price (if you're a seller that is!)

This new built shell is on £70 at the moment with 10 hours to go: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tamiya-Ford-Escort-Bodyshell-unused/202656088226

NIB body set, sold for £125: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tamiya-50796-3200-Ford-Escort-WRC-1-10-N-O-S-garage-find-/333146948218

Built chassis with unpainted body, sold for £250 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tamiya-58335-Ford-Escort-RS-Cosworth-WRC-/123621835606

(considering it's just a TT-01 which is worth about £50, that's an expensive body!)

[Mokei Kagaku 1604]

12 hours ago, Stefan(2) said:

Those are rare ?

.. think i still have that fiat laying around, new, with those plastic parts that make up the engine

787 won't be re-released.. ( or .. re-re-re released ) unless...  magic.

The last batch was stopped dead in his tracks, something with copyrights. 

 

I don't doubt for a second that you got this information, and probably from a source that considered itself to be "close to Tamiya" and "credible", like for instance a Tamiya country distributor, so no offence. But I can't imagine that this is true. The static 1/24 scale 787B is verified to be re-released very soon, so why on earth should "copyright issues" be a reason for not re-releasing the RC version? 

[Stefan(2) 80]

1 hour ago, Mokei Kagaku said:

I don't doubt for a second that you got this information, and probably from a source that considered itself to be "close to Tamiya" and "credible", like for instance a Tamiya country distributor, so no offence. But I can't imagine that this is true. The static 1/24 scale 787B is verified to be re-released very soon, so why on earth should "copyright issues" be a reason for not re-releasing the RC version? 

The thing is,  when the c group got re released ( 787 , the limited edition Ferrari , jaguar and the c-11 ) i bought the entire set from Japan on release day.

Few months later, i bought another Ferrari , Jaguar and tried to get another 787 ( who never made it to Europa as a non-japan kit for.. at that time, unknown reason )

So, i did a bit of digging .

Turns out that the 787 was pulled off market ( source, Tamiya Germany ) due copyright things with the body .

As i was told , only one re-release batch of 787 was made , the 3 others had several batches / production runs.

 

What happened after, i do not know.

 

The reason i remember so well, is that i was slightly furious on myself, as i really loved the body kit looks, and wanted another one as a runner. ( the NIB was sitting there as a collector item )

 

Apparently ( and i can't confirm this ! ) , of the first batch a small number of non Japanese kits where made ( i had the Japanese only manual / box ) , and a few ended up

from that batch sold in euro-land.

 

Ah, here it is 

https://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?cid=46747&id=1546 

Advantage of not being able to clean up your showroom

 

 

Of course, they may (  i assume ) cleared up the copyright thing by now.

But im very certain there was a issue with the last re-release , as it *mutter* destroyed my change to get a runner.

 

[Mokei Kagaku 1604]

1 hour ago, Stefan(2) said:

The thing is,  when the c group got re released ( 787 , the limited edition Ferrari , jaguar and the c-11 ) i bought the entire set from Japan on release day.

Few months later, i bought another Ferrari , Jaguar and tried to get another 787 ( who never made it to Europa as a non-japan kit for.. at that time, unknown reason )

So, i did a bit of digging .

Turns out that the 787 was pulled off market ( source, Tamiya Germany ) due copyright things with the body .

As i was told , only one re-release batch of 787 was made , the 3 others had several batches / production runs.

 

What happened after, i do not know.

 

The reason i remember so well, is that i was slightly furious on myself, as i really loved the body kit looks, and wanted another one as a runner. ( the NIB was sitting there as a collector item )

 

Apparently ( and i can't confirm this ! ) , of the first batch a small number of non Japanese kits where made ( i had the Japanese only manual / box ) , and a few ended up

from that batch sold in euro-land.

 

Ah, here it is 

https://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?cid=46747&id=1546 

Advantage of not being able to clean up your showroom

 

 

Of course, they may (  i assume ) cleared up the copyright thing by now.

But im very certain there was a issue with the last re-release , as it *mutter* destroyed my change to get a runner.

 

Thanks for the comprehensive perspectives! 

Whereas what "Tamiya Germany" (distributor, not a Tamiya company) claimed at that time might be true (I don't think it is, because in my humble opinion, it defies logic), after actively collecting information since the early eighties about  more or less everything related to Tamiya, I consider "Tamiya Germany" to be one of the very worst sources. And living in Germany, I unfortunately can observe their actions in the market pretty closely. Simply a terrible company that even cannibalizes on the Tamiya name by naming inferior no-name products "Tamiya", selling poorly assembled Tamiya models and even importing and selling Tamiya clone parts. That said, it would seem that these activities have been reduced in recent years and I suspect that Tamiya Inc. played a major role in that.

In my point of view, "Tamiya Germany" does virtually anything for money, and if the world had been remotely just, companies like "Tamiya Germany" wouldn't exist. Also, either because of cynicism, indifference or ignorance (probably all three), the accuracy and correctness of information about Tamiya coming from "Tamiya Germany" is mostly so poor that the information is useless unless it's been verified by an honest, serious and credible source.

Frankly, I think "Tamiya Germany" has done so much harm to Tamiya that I would be happy to see the entire company go bankrupt and disappear for ever. 

And I've said it before; I worked for 17 years for a Tamiya country distributor (which wasn't a particularly good company to be honest), and despite myself being fanatic at getting early information about new releases and even any minute and insignificant inside information that might exist, Tamiya Inc. shared nothing with the distributors. 2-3 months before the actual release of a new item, a bulletin, a black/white boxart-style drawing on glossy paper and/or high quality photos on photo paper, and a little later (mostly) two samples of the item were forwarded. Nothing else. Ever. No inside information whatsoever.

For those who are the origin of incorrect information, the motivation is based on many things; for the Tamiya enthusiasts that do so, I reckon the idea of being admired as "an insider" and being "important" cause a strong motivation. We've seen that way too many times here on TC too. For distributors, lies are often used to disguise the truth why they don't import certain items or are temporarily or permanently out of stock. Indifference, ignorance and greed are in my opinion mostly the actual reason, whereas the most common excuses are "the molds are broken and can't be repaired" and "copyright issue". With regard to (spare) parts availability from distributors, the most common lie is that "Tamiya doesn't provide spare parts (for this item)", which is simply too stupid considering that the spare parts are commonly listed in the manuals, even for low cost items like Mini 4WD models and small scale static models and are positively available on the domestic market and in other countries with better distributors.

As for availability of TRUE inside information, the single information that I know of that can be stretched to be defined as inside information was something we experienced during the Tamiya Cup Eurofinal in Kloten/Zurich, Switzerland in 1996. Tamiya representatives invited distributor representatives to a meeting behind closed doors on the premises and among the rather plain issues discussed, it was asked what we would think of a re-release of the Wild Willy. No indications that Tamiya considered to actually do it or whether it would be on the original chassis or a new chassis (WR-02 as it would turn out). Just the question what we thought about the idea, and no discernible reactions when we expressed our views.

Also, during a visit to the distributor I worked for, Tamiya representatives brought with them a prototype of the TA01 chassis topped with a three piece and somewhat cruder version of the Celica body that would later be the first to be released on the TA01-chassis. Wheels and suspension arms were made of a material reminiscent of ceramic. Either it was the exact sample that TC member Scoobybooster has posted about in TC or an identical one. This happened quite shortly before the TA01 was officially presented, so at the time, it hardly qualified as "inside information" either. 

These are the only two experiences I can recall from 17 intense years that involved a little information from Tamiya Inc. that wasn't generally available to the market at the exact time we got it.

Everyone is entitled to trust or distrust whatever source(s) they have, but personally, I don't trust any information coming from a Tamiya distributor or a hobby shop. Of course it's sometimes correct, but so many negative experiences for so many years have made me very skeptical. I don't consider any information fully verified before it's confirmed by Tamiya Inc., Japan.

Also, I think it's sensible to remind ourselves now and then that the majority of distributor and shop employees aren't by far as enthusiastic, energetic, serious and involved in Tamiya as people like us, who spend a significant part of our time and money on activities related to Tamiya and Tamiya products. For these people, it's probably very hard to acknowledge that the accuracy of information about "all things Tamiya" can be considered important at all, and I don't think we can blame them!  

Sorry for the long post and probably also getting somewhat off topic, but I simply can't emphasize strongly enough how useless I consider distributors and shops to be as a source of information about Tamiya. That said, a few very good exceptions certainly do exist, so all the more credit to them!

[Stefan(2) 80]

I am typing a bit less ;p ( mostly due cold fingers atm, due a stiff fight with FG's in the garage ;p )

I agree, Tamiya Germany , and even closer to home, Tamiya Netherlands where -bad-   

Had my share of run-in's with it

It actually started my privat import from Japan and Hong Kong, when it was very unusual for a privat person to do so at that time. 

Hideous pricing and kits being late, or not available at all ( not to mention a dread to get parts for anything but a TT01 chassis ) 

Local hobby shop .. well, was just not there.. or would carry the odd TT01 box , with a bit of luck the choice of 1 radio set. 

 

Anyway, at that time my search in , for me , usual market of Hong Kong / Japan at that time dried up. ( sold out.. ) , and after that

i contacted Tamiya Germany ( hey, maybe they still got one laying around )

Then, i was told about the copyright thing.  ( the others, i could get , c11 / Jaguar  , Ferrari )  But, at that time did not need Tamiya in Europa to

get those

 

I did spend some time digging ( it triggerd me ) , to find a other source for the copyright thingy

 

Btw, within the club there is more speak about it .. 2007 dated

 

Anyway, i did always love to run my c groups ,  insane rockets .

... still got the Jag as a NIB ...  mhhh   

 

 

[Mokei Kagaku 1604]

17 hours ago, Stefan(2) said:

Hideous pricing and kits being late, or not available at all ( not to mention a dread to get parts for anything but a TT01 chassis )

 

In my opinion, you've made an especially valid point with this.

And instead of criticizing (Tamiya) distributors for their actions, I'll ask a few questions why most of them seemingly don't care much about Tamiya's image, parts availability or providing correct information. I'll also try to answer the questions myself, but would be happy to hear what others think might be the true answers too.

1. Why are so many Tamiya products only available on the Japanese market or in just a few countries?

2. Why is parts availability so poor in many export markets?

3. Why don't distributors and their employees generally care much about providing correct information?

4. Why are lies/guesses more tempting as answers to "niche" questions than providing the truth?

Well, I think that a general answer to more or less all questions is closely connected to economy/profit and enthusiasm. The distributors are into it for the money (as are most employees) and enthusiasm plays a minor role, if any. If a person/company was running a Tamiya distributorship primarily based on enthusiasm, they would in most or all cases quickly be out of business. And I would be a good (or bad?) example of this, to be honest. As a matter of fact, just before I emigrated to Germany, the Tamiya country distributor I had worked for for so many years, wasn't doing very well, and a good friend of mine contemplated with the idea of taking over the distributorship and asked me if I would like to have the daily responsibility. I was tempted (for all the wrong reasons), but declined. Most importantly, I knew that my knowledge about economy wasn't adequate and my enthusiasm simply excessive. "Economy" can be learned, so maybe a solvable problem, but enthusiasm can't be "de-learned" (though Tamiya did a serious "attempt" with the Juggernaut and how they treated disappointed Juggernaut customers by never providing an adequate solution to the problem), and I knew all too well that I would be too enthusiastic about importing "anything Tamiya" (of which a lot wouldn't sell well) and probably confused, bored and sad by concentrating on just what the market wanted.

In fact, I had at that time recently observed how the company of another friend of mine had gone bankrupt for the same reasons. He started a hobby shop strictly focused on model railroad products. He opened the shop literally in the capitals main railway station and from day one, he imported any model railroad product he could get his hands on. He was convinced that the shop's location was perfect because he thought it was ultimately cool himself and couldn't possibly understand why not all model railroad enthusiasts would be as enthusiastic about absolutely all the products he offered and why they all weren't prepared to pay a premium for them to be "allowed" to buy them in a so cool location (with an exorbitant rent). Needless to say, it didn't work even remotely as well as he was convinced it would do, and regardless of the sensible and friendly advice he got from numerous friends and customers, he thought he just needed to get even more exotic products than the ones that didn't sell well in the first place and worked even harder doing all the wrong things. He went bankrupt within about two years and never understood why, turned ill and never really recovered. Whereas I had and have a lot of sympathy for him, I think that his (excessive) enthusiasm and lack of understanding why most enthusiasts didn't behave as he expected, was his biggest enemy. I would admittedly do many of the same mistakes if I had been in charge of a Tamiya distributor.

So, what I'm indirectly saying, is that we probably shouldn't expect (or even want) Tamiya distributors and their employees to be as insanely enthusiastic about Tamiya as we are ourselves! And most obviously aren't! But they try to make as much money as possible and mostly put their time and resources into activities they think will optimize their profit. Which is exactly what I in essence think your (Stefan) statement is about. Oversimplified; ensuring parts availability for "anything but a TT01 chassis" (probably the TT02 by now), doesn't contribute remotely as much to profitability. Similarly, it doesn't matter that much if the niche product you and I are waiting for in desperate anticipation is late onto the market, so why should a distributor put "excessive" effort into make something you, I and a tiny minority want available in what we think is a timely manner? Or at all? Yes, depressing, I know! 

Though I hardly ever conclude that I'm right about anything, I believe that most aspects of the issue and the listed questions are answered with this, but although this post is too long already and many of you surely were bored two sentences into my first post in this thread, this forum doesn't get more expensive with an increasing number of words, does it? 

So;

1./2. Japan is an enormous market for Tamiya and quite many Tamiya products are tailormade with the domestic market in mind. There will always exist a few mad enthusiasts outside Japan (like us, I guess) who want some of this products, but unfortunately, in many cases there are too few of us in each country we are living, to make it profitable to import and support these products. And again, the distributors are into this for the money, and don't want to spend time and money to cater for a tiny group of "maniacs" when there is rather a loss than a profit to be made. Especially not when they have no ideological enthusiasm for this "niche" products or Tamiya themselves. And yes, the poor availability of parts and products is sometimes down to pure ignorance, mismanagement and laziness too, so I don't only defend the distributors' actions! Also, I'm very critical about many distributors' apparent/actual lack of longterm strategies with Tamiya. The image and goodwill that Tamiya continuously has invested in for decades with quality, service, parts availability and careful marketing is in my humble opinion ignored and sacrificed on the altar of short term profit with the least effort and resources possible. Including distributors cannibalizing Tamiya by importing and selling Tamiya clone products and naming low quality no-name products of their own "Tamiya", with the German distributor likely being the worst by far.

3.&4. Profit is made primarily by focusing on and pushing the products that the majority of the market wants, and the majority of the market couldn't care less about the correct answers to questions about "anything Tamiya" as long as they have fun with their mainstream Tamiya product and get parts for it.  And most customers don't even stay long enough in the hobby to start to care anything about things that are important to longtime enthusiasts like many of us. A friend of mine runs the dominant shops and distributorships of RC-products in his country and some years ago, he started monitoring and recording when newcomers got into the hobby and how long they stayed active. Sure, there are some unknowns and uncertainties in this equation, like losing customers to the competition, customers going into hiatus and later reviving and so on, but with his large market share in a country with small and weak competition and since he observed such a large number of customers for such a long time, I think his conclusion is quite close to reality;

His conclusion? Well: the average newcomer is active for roughly three months!  To most customers, RC - and/or model-products are like fidget spinners, the toy in a McD Happy Meal and any other shortlived trend. Fun for a short time, here today, gone tomorrow and thoroughly forgotten.

So, there is simply no time to develop into maniacs like our tiny minority and for those who run a business, the best way of making the maximum profit is to give the average customers as much of what they want for the fleeting moment they are into the hobby. Simple as that!  And you bet that what they want aren't primarily products made with the (Japanese) 

Surely, this is experience and knowledge that my friend is not the only one to have, and being into the business for profit, they would be foolish not to prioritize and focus on the activities they pay off the most and extract as much money of the average customer in the extremely short time he/she is available and prepared to spend.

So, as annoying as it is to those of us who take the hobby seriously for a long time and maybe for life, it's understandable that distributors and their employees answer our "niche" questions with the least effort and time required. And unfortunately, they often don't know the answers and aren't enthusiastic enough themselves to care or understand why the answer should be correct. And getting the correct information about something they don't know and don't appreciate the importance of (for us) is time consuming and requires an effort they aren't prepared to invest in something "so insignificant". So, lying, guessing or estimating is the logical solution.

Harsh words, I know, but how many times haven't we seen information from "credible" Tamiya distributors / hobby shops proven wrong? 

A: Parts that "aren't available at all from Tamiya" that "miraculously" are widely available in other countries (and I'm not talking about parts from split kits!).

B: Models/parts that "will never again be available because the molds are irreparably broken" that by the same "miracle" (for sure!) are produced and offered again some time later (from positively the same old molds!)

C: Models "that can't possibly be re-released for copyright reasons", when Tamiya at the same time offers numerous models that must necessarily be affected by exactly the same alleged "copyright issues". (ie. Tamiya has had 35(!) Porsche RC-models (with unique item numbers) and approximately 43 Porsche static and Mini 4WD models (including the static 959) in their range since the "copyright dispute that made the (RC) 959 re-release impossible". Enough said? Or is the "copyright issue" a reasonable explanation?

This post is surely way too long already, but I'd like to post a little diagram to visualize a problem for Tamiya distributors and shops that has developed in recent years. 

In perspective; in 1974, any customer thinking about buying a Tamiya RC-model had exactly one model to choose from. So for distributors and shops, there was that one RC-model to focus their marketing, expertise and support activities on. So, maximizing profit from Tamiya RC sales was as easy as doing their best to promote and support and fuel the customers' enthusiasm for that model.

For the consecutive years, so few new RC-models were added to the range each year that it was pretty easy to keep track for distributors and shops, both in terms of parts availability, expertise, support and marketing. Until 1986, an average of 5.7 new models a year? No sweat! And it even paid of in the long run, because each model's lifecycle could be counted in multiple years and not a few months. Yes, it's legitimate to argue that many models now share the same chassises, so although each model mostly has a short lifecycle, there are relatively few chassis types to manage despite the massive flow of new models and many chassis types now live for many years or even decades (WR-02, CC-01 for instance).

Still, look below for a visualization of how this has developed! It's enough to almost feel a little empathy with the distributors who are with few exceptions incapable of keeping track with adequate knowledge, stock and even parts support. Just almost! 

Finally, sorry for the long rant! As indicated above, my enthusiasm for "anything Tamiya" is excessive. There is maybe a slight comfort that I have that in common with quite a few of you. 

 

[Stefan(2) 80]

Well, i can understand the lack of "hobby-ism" , it is indeed a business.

* looking at myself *

Im a truck driver, and i haul garbage / recycling products.   The material undesired elements of our way of living. 

Trust me, im not enthusiastic about garbage, or care about recycling.. at all.     You can give it all kind of sexy names , but i still

haul smelling, sometimes dangerous cargo's and i don't have a need to do that at home, or think about it "off the clock" .

While i do not hate my job, i do it for the money , not to promote the environment we save with it.  *bla bla bla*

In truth.. i could not care less. 

 

They pay me to be a "pro" and know what im doing, and that is what the costumer gets.

In truth.. i expect the same from any company i do business with ( privat or at work. )

Nothing more,  nothing less.