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ThunderDragonCy

Do touring cars have any front kickup at all?

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Yes, but only a few degrees. Usually built into the front arm mounts. In some cars you can get different mounts to adjust it, even. Usually kickup = caster, but some cars have a separate amount of caster built into the kingpin mounts either in addition to or subtracting from the kickup angle.

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By default the lower suspensions arms on a touring car usually don't have any kickup to them at all.  The front C-hubs that contain the steering knuckles usually have about 4 degrees of caster to start.  Tamiya has made C-hubs with 6 degrees of caster as well.  In addition to that, it's usually possible to install shims of varying thicknesses under the suspension arm mounts to introduce anti-squat and anti-dive to the suspension too.  So, you could add or subtract a degree or two of caster this way, but it will affect the suspension under acceleration and braking as the arms aren't flat anymore.  All of this applies to TA, TB, and TRF cars.  The TT cars don't have this level of adjustment.

Thinking about your TB-based buggy? ;) 4WD buggies have much less kickup/caster than 2WD buggies.

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For drifting we use a few mm's of kick-up sometimes by adding plates or shims under the suspensionmounts. We to the same in the rear as well either on the front or rear of the rear arms to promote squatting under power or diving when off-throttle. RC drift cars are very dynamic and have pretty aggressive suspension geometry and a lot of bodyroll by design.

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Thanks everyone. So it sounds like a flat plate chassis would be fine. Good.

6 hours ago, speedy_w_beans said:

Thinking about your TB-based buggy? ;) 4WD buggies have much less kickup/caster than 2WD buggies.

I has been, but that has been scuppered by the front arms on the TB05 not have pillow balls. The shafts are a direct fit into 3mm holes in the suspension blocks so there is no scope to lift the front block to get 10 deg kick up. 

Actually i am knocking about another idea. Now my TRF211 has the 3 gear layback transmission i have the original 3 gear laydown transmission parts surplus. Was thinking about selling them but as i have a spare TRF201 steering linkage too i got wondering about a mid-motor RWD touring car. I already have my RR-03Ra which is fun (albeit actually quite wayward on loose surfaces!), so i got wondering about a more road optimised version. Mid motor, 5mm ground clearance, shorty mounted transverse, touring car shocks and the TRF416/7/8 suspension arms like i have on the RR-03Ra. 

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7 minutes ago, TwistedxSlayer said:

I feel I've missed something.... What TB Based buggy @ThunderDragonCy

I have been moaning about the lack of buggy development and been vaguely threatening to put TRF503 arms on a TB05 to make a "DB03". Its a bigger thing than i first thought because i can't put a spacer under the front block to get some kickup, and the shock towers only mount on 2 screws so it was beginning to go from 'pretty doable' to 'a bit too much effort'. 

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3 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

I have been moaning about the lack of buggy development and been vaguely threatening to put TRF503 arms on a TB05 to make a "DB03". Its a bigger thing than i first thought because i can't put a spacer under the front block to get some kickup, and the shock towers only mount on 2 screws so it was beginning to go from 'pretty doable' to 'a bit too much effort'. 

But you need to do this. How do the TRF503 front arms mount? The TB05 is by all accounts pretty bendy, you could make a carbon fibre chassis to fix the bendiness and mount the front arms assuming the TRF503 arms mount like others with the blocks either end and pins through them?

Also, if you can make a carbon fibre chassis successfully can you also draw one for a TA07 and email that over?

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Just now, Jonathon Gillham said:

But you need to do this. How do the TRF503 front arms mount? The TB05 is by all accounts pretty bendy, you could make a carbon fibre chassis to fix the bendiness and mount the front arms assuming the TRF503 arms mount like others with the blocks either end and pins through them?

Also, if you can make a carbon fibre chassis successfully can you also draw one for a TA07 and email that over?

Basically the same as the TB05, but with balls slotted on the ends like the rear has. Really wasn't planning on going as far as a carbon chassis as there are a lot of moulded in interfaces for drive train and steering on the tb05 which would all require 3d printed bolt on goodies to replace. And bendiness of chassis isn't such a bad thing on a buggy. 

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4 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

Basically the same as the TB05, but with balls slotted on the ends like the rear has. Really wasn't planning on going as far as a carbon chassis as there are a lot of moulded in interfaces for drive train and steering on the tb05 which would all require 3d printed bolt on goodies to replace. And bendiness of chassis isn't such a bad thing on a buggy. 

I should just look at the manual...but I think the TA07 has the same thing, with the balls on one end and not on thr other. However, swapping to the alloy bits (suspension blocks? Hinge pin holders? Suspension mounts? Like part 54065 or the separate ones for th3 other end) meant you need the balls on both ends, so easy solution (assuming the TB05 takes the same alloy blocks as every other Tamiya touring car) is to swap out the plastic bits for alloy and then you use balls all round.

Also, modern buggies have aluminium or carbon chassis so you should, maybe try a DB07 and amke one for the TA07 you make into a buggy?

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4 minutes ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

I should just look at the manual...but I think the TA07 has the same thing, with the balls on one end and not on thr other. However, swapping to the alloy bits (suspension blocks? Hinge pin holders? Suspension mounts? Like part 54065 or the separate ones for th3 other end) meant you need the balls on both ends, so easy solution (assuming the TB05 takes the same alloy blocks as every other Tamiya touring car) is to swap out the plastic bits for alloy and then you use balls all round.

Also, modern buggies have aluminium or carbon chassis so you should, maybe try a DB07 and amke one for the TA07 you make into a buggy?

Interesting. The TB05 and TA07 use the same suspension. So if you get aluminium suspension blocks you need the ball ends? 

I wanted to do this thing with a TB05. Mainly because belts on offroad buggies are a pain to keep debris out of. What's also putting me off is the short wheelbase. I don't want to go on a new chassis mission and even with the back swept buggy arms the wheelbase is only going to be in the mid-260s which is a bit short. 

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6 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

I has been, but that has been scuppered by the front arms on the TB05 not have pillow balls. The shafts are a direct fit into 3mm holes in the suspension blocks so there is no scope to lift the front block to get 10 deg kick up

You can replace these with pivot ball type. Mounting is identical. It's been some time since I tried this, but I think that slightly more than 7mm (~10°) was possible.

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10 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

Interesting. The TB05 and TA07 use the same suspension. So if you get aluminium suspension blocks you need the ball ends? 

I wanted to do this thing with a TB05. Mainly because belts on offroad buggies are a pain to keep debris out of. What's also putting me off is the short wheelbase. I don't want to go on a new chassis mission and even with the back swept buggy arms the wheelbase is only going to be in the mid-260s which is a bit short. 

The shorter wheelbase isn't necessarily a bad thing.  I measure about 280 mm for the DB01R, and about 270 mm for the DF03 Dark Impact.  I enjoyed driving the DF03 much more at the local indoor clay track years ago; it felt more nimble.  The main downside was durability; ABS plastics, self-tapping screws, and the rear ball diff let it down.  The DB01 felt more stable but heavier.  I'd take the nimble buggy and live with some twitchiness over a more stable platform personally.

FWIW, the front kickup on the DB01R is about 8 degrees for the lower suspension arms.  The front uprights and steering knuckles add more caster, too.

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Kick-up is basically synonymous with caster for TCs because the track is (usually) perfectly smooth. Having independent adjustment of kick-up and caster is only required if you want to alter the jumping/landing/bump and cornering behaviour of the car independently. Tuning of suspension in TCs is more focused on weight shift during cornering than handling bumps in the road.

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