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Peter_B

Beginners guide to nitro?

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I've never had a nitro car not have I ever seen one in the flesh but every so often I get the urge to get one to see what it is about.

I'm sure some people would say not to bother, they're noisy and smelly etc.

But putting all of that aside - if I was to get hold of one, does anybody know of any decent beginners guides? Do's and don'ts, how to tune and maintain the engines - that sort of thing?

No doubt somebody will say to go along to a local hobby store or a club that runs nitro. Unfortunately there aren't any of either in the area.

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Hey!  I'm running into this issue right now as I did acquire my first nitro so X2!  

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Glow engine tuning is a Dark Art :ph34r: it's best learnt in person alongside a good mentor :)

But to give yourself a good chance of success... you MUST HAVE

#1 FRESH, clean, reliable glow fuel. Methanol is hygroscopic, stale fuel absorbs water & it don't burn well. I'd buy small 1L bottles, don't keep it around for more than a few weeks. So you must have a reliable LHS nearby who has healthy turnover for good supply of FRESH fuel.

Different brands burn differently too, so stick with 1 fuel. Chose a nitro content around 15-20% and stick with that, else you'll need retuning for every fuel.

#2 ZERO AIR LEAKS in your engine and fuel system. Every part of engine (back plate seal, carb to crankcase seal etc), fuel system (tank, tank lid, tubing) & exhaust (manifold, tuned pipe) plays a part in HOLDING PRESSURE, be it vacuum or positive pressure... your tuning depends on this pressure to be reliable. I often run a smear of RTV at every engine & exhaust gasket; fuel tube connections get little spring clip clamps. 

#3 a KNOWN-GOOD glow plug :P not unknown for brandnew plugs from factory packet to be bad (either they don't glow, or leak pressure, or don't keep glowing etc etc). I like OS #8 plugs... buy a cardful then when I've got an engine running good, put a new plug in & run a tankful. Once tested good, remove & store safely as known-good glow plug - vital to keep a few of these available on Raceday, or when trying to start a fresh new engine.

Those 3 are the non-negotiattbles. :) 

Most engines you can set to rough starting ballpark for tuning then once it's started, tune by ear. Too rich it bogs down when you floor the gas. Too lean it screams in pain... shortly before seizing & detonating from lubricant starvation. In between those two limits is where you want to be. 

Brandnew engines can take some work to get going... I usually strip, clean & rebuild before 1st start. Then they need to be heatcycled & run-in before any serious work. This is where you'd ask 10 RC'ers and get back 11 conflicting replies.

Used engines... huh... all I can say is what you get, will be between perfect & shagged. Helps to be familiar how a good example runs, to recognise how bad yours is. 

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Ive had 3, a thunder tiger rally car, a thunder tiger bike and an hpi savage with an sts engine.

The TT rally car was a dream, easy to tune, kept its tune, started easy, fast, great fun (no idea what happened to that thinking about it)

The TT bike is a little more finiky to tune and start, but not much.

The sts engine in my savage is a nightmare. Hard to start, impossible to tune, when you get it close it wont hold tune (or at least its very particular so slight atmospheric changes need more tweeks), sometimes daft fast other times a stalling mess.

 

What im getting at, is some are great, some arent. Research the engine its got before buying.

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20 minutes ago, graemevw said:

The sts engine in my savage is a nightmare. Hard to start, impossible to tune, when you get it close it wont hold tune (or at least its very particular so slight atmospheric changes need more tweeks), sometimes daft fast other times a stalling mess.

 

What im getting at, is some are great, some arent. Research the engine its got before buying.

Nah... symptoms suggest your engine has 1 or more air leaks! <_<

Haven't heard much about STS since the Savage fad days :) along with Force they were popular with the guys for bring a "budget" replacement when you've FUBAR'd your original motor.

Whereas I preferred mucking around with the original HPI 25... went thru a succession of these :D I'd strip & build them up, run them in & by time I had obtained another brandnew unit onto the workbench the previous slightly used example would've already found a ready buyer.

Did a bit of porting & gasflowing ;) not for pure top end performance, more for reliability & clean running. Reassembled with attention to sealing every possible air gap. The final unit I built... it would crank up first pop on its rotostart, then it'll idle thru an entire tank without even needing a blip on the throttle. Still own that today bolted into my finale Savage SS.

There's an unique oddity with Savage tuning though... only do tuning with the tank half full - don't fill above the shelf in the "7" shaped tank. If you tune it when tank is full, if memory serves I think it'll lean out too much as the tank empties and by the time you open the tank lid to refuel the engine would invariably starve & cutout. (Except mine. My trucks happily idled whilst I took my time topping up their tank. :P )

 

Glow engines still much easier than petrol. Dayum it's PITA juggling Walbro carb (jets?! Fuel maze!?) vs magneto (air gap adjustment?!?) and spark plug (gap?!!).

 

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I've had the best experiences with O.S. engines. They're reliable and pretty forgiving to tune.

Don't mess around with electric start or "onboard" glow plug heaters or any of that; just get a pull-start engine and a D-cell battery glow plug heater. Much easier to suss out what's going wrong when it won't start. (and there will be times when it won't want to start, no matter what, believe me.) To use the pull-starter, just use a flick of the wrist, not a long pull from the shoulder like you're starting a chainsaw. Pull it too far too hard and you'll break the recoil mechanism. (Ask me how i know.)

Also, make sure you have the room to run one. Nitro-powered cars don't have the same "get up and go" off the line that electrics do; they need to stretch their legs. If you're trying to run in a small area, you'll just barely get the thing moving before you have to hit the brakes. And keep in mind there's no reverse; plan accordingly.

One last caveat: keep the neighborhood kids at a safe distance. Exposed drive gears and hot exhausts/engine heads and little fingers are not a good mix. Better safe than sorry. And that sound WILL attract every kid within earshot.

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5 minutes ago, WillyChang said:

Nah... symptoms suggest your engine has 1 or more air leaks! <_<

Haven't heard much about STS since the Savage fad days :) along with Force they were popular with the guys for bring a "budget" replacement when you've FUBAR'd your original motor.

Whereas I preferred mucking around with the original HPI 25... went thru a succession of these :D I'd strip & build them up, run them in & by time I had obtained another brandnew unit onto the workbench the previous slightly used example would've already found a ready buyer.

Did a bit of porting & gasflowing ;) not for pure top end performance, more for reliability & clean running. Reassembled with attention to sealing every possible air gap. The final unit I built... it would crank up first pop on its rotostart, then it'll idle thru an entire tank without even needing a blip on the throttle. Still own that today bolted into my finale Savage SS.

There's an unique oddity with Savage tuning though... only do tuning with the tank half full - don't fill above the shelf in the "7" shaped tank. If you tune it when tank is full, if memory serves I think it'll lean out too much as the tank empties and by the time you open the tank lid to refuel the engine would invariably starve & cutout. (Except mine. My trucks happily idled whilst I took my time topping up their tank. :P )

 

Glow engines still much easier than petrol. Dayum it's PITA juggling Walbro carb (jets?! Fuel maze!?) vs magneto (air gap adjustment?!?) and spark plug (gap?!!).

 

I was never able to find any air leaks at all, i also knew about the tank thing. Ive done twin and triple carb conversions on more than one car and owned a few 4 carb motorbikes. Id much rather be dealing with them than that sts!

I cant remember why i bought it, apart from the fact it was cheap for a .28 (iirc), not sure if the savage had an engine when i bought it (second hand), i dont remember killing one.

The sts never ran right. I had it apart many times trying to find/solve issues. I still have it though, maybe ill get it out the loft and see if i can sort it. 

I seem to remember it was just a very small window of settings where it ran anywhere near right. Tried many times and many plugs.

Im more experienced now though, maybe i missed something.

I still have the bike, been meaning to get that running again (used to try racing that), will give me an excuse to buy some more fuel.

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7 minutes ago, markbt73 said:

I've had the best experiences with O.S. engines. They're reliable and pretty forgiving to tune.

Don't mess around with electric start or "onboard" glow plug heaters or any of that; just get a pull-start engine and a D-cell battery glow plug heater. Much easier to suss out what's going wrong when it won't start. (and there will be times when it won't want to start, no matter what, believe me.) To use the pull-starter, just use a flick of the wrist, not a long pull from the shoulder like you're starting a chainsaw. Pull it too far too hard and you'll break the recoil mechanism. (Ask me how i know.)

yeah, onboard starting gear is rubbish :rolleyes: especially when TX-activated button :lol:

D or subC pocket glow heater is best... better still if it's got a meter on it that shows when current is flowing. Handy check to see if plug has burnt out or batter is flat.

Pullstarter is handy but starter box for onroad cars is soooo good :) or on a bash truck, Rotostart or one of those adapters that use a cordless drill is so much less yanking. 

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9 minutes ago, graemevw said:

I was never able to find any air leaks at all, i also knew about the tank thing. Ive done twin and triple carb conversions on more than one car and owned a few 4 carb motorbikes. Id much rather be dealing with them than that sts!

I cant remember why i bought it, apart from the fact it was cheap for a .28 (iirc), not sure if the savage had an engine when i bought it (second hand), i dont remember killing one.

The sts never ran right. I had it apart many times trying to find/solve issues. I still have it though, maybe ill get it out the loft and see if i can sort it. 

I seem to remember it was just a very small window of settings where it ran anywhere near right. Tried many times and many plugs.

Im more experienced now though, maybe i missed something.

I never bought an STS but yeah they appeared when we were into Savage craze and those engines were selling for dirt cheap & they were "bigger" block than Force. Many local fellows bought them... most ran ok... afaik no major manufacturing defects detected, most could be fixed to run ok after routine rebuild.

Perhaps your carb is dodgy - try resealing all the needles o-rings with thick grease. Or try carb from a different brand. 

But I preferred my puny 25 HPI stock-looking engine :P it'll keep up with any of the bigger blocks. And when the other boys had engine troubles, I'd take pity to help them out... I'd pullover & park my Savage, turn off the TX (haha fancy new radio Failsafe feature appeared then too). Spend a few minutes fiddling on foreign truck, get that going then pickup my TX again... Savage still idling happily... :) 

We killed a lot of engines doing stupid jumps though :D truck would land shiny side down, usual casualty you'll lose a few fins lost off heatsink. But on occasion the heatsink held and the block ripped apart off its mounts instead. :blink:

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btw I used to go chasing air leaks with spraycans of WD40 & white lithium grease

spray WD40 onto an (badly?) idling engine's gaps and if it revs up there's your leak

if engine won't start, has compression but refuses to suck fuel in... spray grease over all the gaps in crankcase. Often it'll seal up leak and draw enough fuel in to start up.

yeah it'll leave the engine one greasy mess :rolleyes:

but hey, not my truck :lol: grateful owner can clean it up himself -_-

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Same air leak chasing techniques as 1/1 cars.

I do seem to remember always thinking the carb seemed a bit shoddy, can't remember why though. I remember having it apart a few times.

Iirc i could get it so the acceleration was good but it wouldnt rev out or i could get it to rev out properly but it wouldnt pull properly.

I dunno, was a long time ago. 

Im curious now though. I wonder how kind its loft time has been on the tyred.

The truck had loads of upgrades, was absolutely bullet proof. Ive cartwheeled that thing landing from 30' high jumps and it just shrugged it off.

Dammit, now i want to get it going again :)

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well the 2 "nitro" rc ive owned are traxxas a t-maxx and a revo and both from new and as new req a run in procedure normally 5 full tanks of fuel.

what ever % fuel you use stick to that % dont go higher or lower as you will need to do a run in procedure again.

one of the most important item to get is a bottle of after run oil witch protect the engine from rust as you should clean the engine after every use.

i just remove the glow plug and spray wd-40 into plug hole and into carb the just turn the engine over a couple of time to remove trace's of fuel then put a few drops of after-run oil into the plug hole and carb and again turn the engine over to coat the inside and protect it wilst not in use.

never store the rc with fuel still in the tank and lines.

as said keep a few best quality plugs for spares.

plus use best quality fuel also .

as for tune'ing as it as been said it is a dark art as the carb needs to be set to the weather conditions really.

i had a problem with my one way bearing and took it to my lhs and they swoped it for me f.o.c and then the owner took it out side and set the carb up and tbh i have not had to mess with it again and that was over 10 years back i have only ever had to put 3 glow plugs into it aswell as i use the best plugs traxxas make.

get some one who know how to set the carbs up if you dont know how to do itof dont want to bother trying.

for me i would never go for them useless pull starts as i used to break them a lot fpr me the ez start that traxxas use is fantastic again for the first timer with "nitro" it makes it easy plus in traxxas rc's the ez start is a hand held jobbie that holds a 7.2 volt batt. tbh i would say take a long hard look at traxxas in my eyes they are the best out their for "nitro".

i would never get rid of my revo tbh and i dought i would buy another "nitro" either. so look at it this way what do you want to use it for and what do you want and expect out of it if it fun and bashing them its gotta be a truck plus look at where you live and where you will be able to use it also

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[No reverse] as @markbt73 already said... Since we are all used to reverse, not having it is quite inconvenient.  Terra Crusher has a reverse, I think T-Maxxes too, but most don't.  

[Batteries]  You need 2 kinds of batteries.  One to keep the receiver and the servos powered. One more for the glow plug.  

[Sound]  People think that the sound would be awesome.  But .15 and .18 engines are small, so they sound like angry bees.  

[Smoke]  At least the exhaust plume looks cool.  Kids love that. 

[Smell]  Since you are burning alcohol, you only smell little bit of burnt lubricant.  It doesn't smell as much as a gasoline lawn mower.  

[Acceleration]  Nitro is slower to pick up speed.  The engine needs to hit certain RPM in order to engage the clutch.  Even then the acceleration is generally slower than an electric (depends on horsepower, of course).  Top speed isn't faster either (usually) but 1/8th buggies usually have .21 engines, and they are quite nimble.  

[Wet]  The lubricants are mixed in the fuel, so the exhaust spits lubricants by design.  Have a pan under if you don't want oil stain.  

[Fuel]  @WillyChang already mentioned, being fresh is important.  That also means you need to keep the fuel air-tight.  Alcohol loves to suck in moisture.  Even a pin hole would ruin the fuel in a few days.  

As far as the operating a nitro engine goes, the needle setting is absolutely the key.  The moisture content of the air changes drastically all the time, so you have to fiddle with it every time.  I have used cheap Tower hobbies glow plugs, and they worked just fine for me.  

And after running it, you should use after-run oil, so any remaining fuel in the engine won't attract water and make things rust.  

 

Nitro engines need 2 kinds of batteries.  They burn fuel that's moisture sensitive, you'd also need an after-run oil.  Nitro needs those 4 things, where as electric cars need only 1 battery.  This is why I only have 2 nitros when I have 2 dozen electrics.  But I think it's a good experience to have a nitro.  After all the trouble, it's fun to see it go.  

 

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Spending time with your long flathead screwdriver in your pocket tuning can be addictive. A nicely setup nitro is a sweet thing indeed. O.S. make great user friendly stuff, and once dialled, only require the slightest tweaks according to conditions. 

 

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I have been in the hobby for over 30 years, and was introduced to nitro planes first by my father. Cox 049's to be exact, went on from there to larger planes with larger motors, nitro helicopters, nitro boats, and then nitro cars. I guess to me nitro power is not a mystery, but it does have a steep learning curve. Glow plugs, glow igniters, starter box's, the correct fuel, tuning the engine by temperatures is a science in its own right.

I would say this, if your serious about getting a decent nitro powered car for bashing purposes, Traxxas has a good line up of nitro cars/trucks that have probably the best support, and customer base out there. Plenty of YouTube videos on each model. They have electric start, and remote glow plug igniters that make starting one of these engines much simpler for the novice. Yes, there are bigger and badder R/C's, but none are a simple to get going as the Traxxas stuff. Just my .02

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26 minutes ago, Juggular said:

[No reverse] as @markbt73 already said... Since we are all used to reverse, not having it is quite inconvenient.  Terra Crusher has a reverse, I think T-Maxxes too, but most don't.  

 

There were also those Kyosho "QRC" gearbox cars from the '90s, which shifted into a reverse gear when you pushed the trigger forward. They were a way to give nitro cars reverse, with only 2 channels. Had a funny push-me-pull-you throttle linkage that worked in both directions of servo travel. The downside: no brakes!

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Nitro beginner checklist:

- Use lots of meth

- Run your cars in the neighborhood, at full throttle up and down the street, at 10pm at night

- Learn how to not repair your broken traxxas doucheSlash nitro and ask local hobby shop to do it for you

- Sell broken car on craigslist for exactly what you paid for it, more profit if you use only one blurry photo with no description and ask for trades for quads or recreational equipment

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Thanks guys.

I've been Googling and seen it said that you shouldn't leave fuel in the tank. But, and this is probably a dumb question, how do you get it out?

I'm guessing you don't just tip the car upside down and tip it out?

Do you let the engine run until the tank is dry?

Or is there another way to get the fuel out?

Once you've gotten the fuel out, what do you do with it? Can it be stored and used at a later date? If it has to be disposed of, how do you get rid of it?

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STS were incredibly inconsistent, some were ok, some were pigs, no matter how they were prepared (without going into full mod mode). A good Golden Lion (LRP, SH) were much better options back then. 

For your first Nitro, I would recommend something 1/8 scale, with atleast a .21 size engine, they seem to be much less finicky than the smaller engines. A great starter would be a RTR Losi 8ightT, seems great value, nice and big, reliable, and comes with good stuff to get started, check it out online, youtube etc

 

heres my current 1/8 race truggy, it’s a Mugen MBX8T, with a Reds WRX Corsa Lunga

46684588482_beba4e8caf_k.jpg

46012516294_cd606d0b39_k.jpg

46684588092_32b9f15557_k.jpg

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My first Nitro was a cheap HSP Buggy off the ‘bay to try. It was a pig of a thing. But things improved once I realized the clutch was broken from the start. There wasn’t the endless internet research available then. But there was something about it that just kept me persevering. At the point of a seriously uneconomical repair my niece & nephew finished it off permanently having always nagged me for a go.

My Dad then bought me a Thunder Tiger EB4 Buggy for my 40th when he was visiting and I then knew what I was missing out on. 

Firstly 1/8 scale made for a much more pleasant and fun experience, as did the bigger motor which are less sensitive adjustments and conditions than smaller ones. 

With the HSP 1/10 for every 15 minutes drive time equated to 60 minutes fiddling and maintenance. Where as the Thunder Tiger is a breeze, more like 2 hours of fun to 15 minutes maintenance.  Keep the air filter clean, a spare glow plug good fuel and a freshly charged glow starter and it’s always ready for action. ( it’s 7 years old now )  

I get about 20 minutes run time from the cars tank of juice, so I tend to run it dry, then just burn off any fuel in the system with the glow starter reattached and a few tugs on the pull starter. 

As much of a pain the HSP was I learnt a lot from it and paved the way to Thunder Tiger with no regrets and lots of fun. 

P.S I happen to like the noise & smell of them. Also bare in mind you do need a LOT of space to run one.

 

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5 hours ago, Re-Bugged said:

My first Nitro was a cheap HSP Buggy off the ‘bay to try. It was a pig of a thing. But things improved once I realized the clutch was broken from the start. There wasn’t the endless internet research available then. But there was something about it that just kept me persevering. At the point of a seriously uneconomical repair my niece & nephew finished it off permanently having always nagged me for a go.

My Dad then bought me a Thunder Tiger EB4 Buggy for my 40th when he was visiting and I then knew what I was missing out on. 

Firstly 1/8 scale made for a much more pleasant and fun experience, as did the bigger motor which are less sensitive adjustments and conditions than smaller ones. 

With the HSP 1/10 for every 15 minutes drive time equated to 60 minutes fiddling and maintenance. Where as the Thunder Tiger is a breeze, more like 2 hours of fun to 15 minutes maintenance.  Keep the air filter clean, a spare glow plug good fuel and a freshly charged glow starter and it’s always ready for action. ( it’s 7 years old now )  

I get about 20 minutes run time from the cars tank of juice, so I tend to run it dry, then just burn off any fuel in the system with the glow starter reattached and a few tugs on the pull starter. 

As much of a pain the HSP was I learnt a lot from it and paved the way to Thunder Tiger with no regrets and lots of fun. 

P.S I happen to like the noise & smell of them. Also bare in mind you do need a LOT of space to run one.

 

I wanted an xray nt18 when they came out. Tiny, so more places to run but tiny, so no doubt harder to keep running. That, the need for a good, flat, clean surface and the fact i dont think they were cheap stopped me.

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9 hours ago, Peter_B said:

Thanks guys.

I've been Googling and seen it said that you shouldn't leave fuel in the tank. But, and this is probably a dumb question, how do you get it out?

I'm guessing you don't just tip the car upside down and tip it out?

Do you let the engine run until the tank is dry?

Or is there another way to get the fuel out?

Once you've gotten the fuel out, what do you do with it? Can it be stored and used at a later date? If it has to be disposed of, how do you get rid of it?

I have a fuel bottle i squeeze the air out of then sucks the fuel in from the big bottle. I use this to get as much out of the tank then run the engine til its empty. Then use the starter box to turn the engine over to get the rest of the fuel out of the tubes. This is what the experienced guys do at the track (the ones who can even tune their engines!).

Nitro is great fun, I have a Hot Bodies D817 V2 with OS Mx engine and Futaba 9373SV servos and its amazing. I'm fortunate as my club is only 40mins away and has really become an 8th scale club with a big track and about 50 nitro buggies at a race meet.

My bro inlaw bought a cheap RTR with electric start and it broke after 2 runs. I would look at the Losi RTR (assuming you don't want to spend 1500 quid on a race setup) since you don't have a club nearby. A truggy could be a better option since they have giant wheels they would make awesome bashers. And you can run a .28 engine.

I don't understand them at all, I bought it from a guy at the club who also sells cars and is an HB team driver so he tunes my car for me. Useless eh

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1 hour ago, graemevw said:

 That, the need for a good, flat, clean surface.

Bigger the scale the rougher the ground you can run on. This one is just happy to be out on just about any terrain. The local shop I used to get fuel from has closed, but by chance wondering into a Electronics shop recently to find they stock Nitro fuel!! Who would of thought, happy day's ahead :). I'd say stick to a well known brand and you'll be fine.

lrWjjOul.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Re-Bugged said:

Bigger the scale the rougher the ground you can run on.

 

Exactly, so a 1/18th nitro touring car wasnt going to like anywhere i could run it!

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