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nowinaminute

Feeling Disillusioned About My RE-RE BlackFoot

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I wanted one for ages, finally got one, spent quite a while stopping the universals from falling out and I have to say that I don't enjoy driving it as much as I thought I would, mostly because I find it's quite easy to tip over. I wasn't expecting miracles from a hard body 80s monster truck but honestly, I find it more tip happy than my Lunchbox was stock and now I have modded my LB I find it way more planted and "chuckable" and this is despite the Blackfoot having what I consider to be a superior suspension setup.

That's not to say I think the BlackFoot is inhrerently the worse handling of the two, it isn't. In stock form it follows the terrain WAY better and it has much more front end grip and steering lock but that's also part of the reason it seems to have a lower threshold for tipping.

I'm not sure what to do, I love how the truck looks but I feel like I'm on on eggshells when I drive it because nobody likes the sound of a hard body scraping along the ground. It's great in a straight line but I have to be so cautious when making tight turns that it kind of takes the fun away a little.

Being the owner of numerous obscure trucks like old Nikkos and such, I'm well aware that you have to adapt your driving style to suit a particular vehicle's capabilities but even with that in mind and even with the steering end point turned down, I still feel like I can't relax enough to enjoy it. All this with the stock motor!

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, I guess I just wanted to hear from some fellow monster ORV owners. Should I persevere? Just stick to using it on grass or at the beach maybe? Maybe I just haven't used it in the right circumstances yet, I know how much a few bad experiences can sway your opinion of an RC unfairly. Maybe a few mods would help too like getting rid of the bump steer etc?
 

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I've been happily hooning one Blackfoot or another since 1987, and you're right: It is a bit easy to traction-roll on pavement. But get it on a loose dirt or sand surface where the rear tires break free instead of grabbing, and it comes alive. It's easy to flick the rear end out and drift it, sliding sideways and controlling it with a little opposite lock. It jumps pretty well too, as long as you stay on the throttle to keep the nose up (and save the diff gears). The only time I've rolled one on dirt is trying to do a "Rockford" style turnaround (full reverse then whip the front end around).

The bump-steer is a non-issue, just because the front suspension rarely compresses anyway. There are many ways to improve durability, but honestly, I wouldn't bother replacing anything until it breaks. Just search around and you'll find tons of good how-to guides to toughen it up.

One of the reasons Blackfoots sold like hotcakes in the '80s is that they're so much fun to drive. I think maybe you just haven't found your groove with it yet. Find some loose dirt to play in, and then see how you feel.

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try some oil filled shocks maybe? my vintage blacky still has stock, but my king blackfoot has oil filled, at the rear only at the moment, and it is much more planted now. But then I predominantly only play on a dirt track so the shocks soak up the bumps and jumps so much better, as well as getting the power down off the corners.

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Perhaps what you need is [1] really bad road.  And maybe [2] Lexan shell?  [3] maybe toe-out?  [4] gyro steering?

Blackfoot needs gravel, dirt, sand, grass, to allow it to slide sideways.  It is a monster truck.  It won't behave like a buggy.  I think my shocks have pistons with biggest holes--with the most watery oil, so the stance won't be too stiff when cornering.  I do have a Lexan shell too.  But I didn't even paint, didn't mount it.  I just love seeing suspensions working crazy on rough surfaces, with all the weight of the hard shell.  If you want do drive hard on smooth surface, a lexan shell could remove a lot of the top-weight.  One could some toe-out and/or use gyro (or end point adjustment), but... 

ORV is really Off-Road-Vehicle. Whoever named it, meant it, I think.  

I think of it as an ATV.  

ATV thrives off the road.  

NAu1FGn.jpg

The moment you take it out onto the tarmac, this happens... (why are they not wearing helmets?)

 

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17 minutes ago, krisby said:

try some oil filled shocks maybe? my vintage blacky still has stock, but my king blackfoot has oil filled, at the rear only at the moment, and it is much more planted now. But then I predominantly only play on a dirt track so the shocks soak up the bumps and jumps so much better, as well as getting the power down off the corners.

The re-re came with oil dampers and they seem to work really well. It's pretty planted in a straight line, I'm just finding cornering a little nerve wracking.

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27 minutes ago, Juggular said:

Blackfoot needs gravel, dirt, sand, grass, to allow it to slide sideways

I think that's the crux of it really, I need to stick to the dirt or at least grass where I won't wince if it rolls over.

I suppose my nearest little area I go to drive (a car park) can be deceptive too. There's lots of gravel and loose dirt but it's also rough concrete and tarmac so you can go from sliding to suddenly being on a clean patch and it goes from 0-100% grip instantly. It has proven to be a bit of a torture test even for some of the best handling vehicles.

I think perhaps I have underestimated just how much I've managed to improve the Lunchbox too. I can't drive the Blackfoot like this in the same car park:
 


It now has DT03 front arms and a prototype 4 link system at the rear and I'm able to drive it pretty hard in that carpark before it will tip. Perhaps I'm simply not giving the Lunchbox enough credit and in turn, judging the Blackfoot too harshly. The Lunchbox tends to have a built in stability aid too because it is very reluctant to turn in sharply until a lot of speed has bled off anyway.

There's another spot not far away that is all dirt/gravel so I'll pop over there tomorrow after work if I get time and see how it does there, hopefully it will raise some smiles. I'll definitely think about taking it to the beach too, nothing rolls on sand!

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I had a BF back in the day, 2nd hobby grade RC I had. I loved it! Well, except for the stupid dog bones popping out all the fricking time.

Then I got an item from the LHS, it was two brackets that mount on either side of the gearbox, each one having a cable on it with a loop that slipped around the end of the trailing arms.

It kept the trailing arms from floating outward away from the gearbox, no more dropped dog bones after that, pure fun!

Although different era, I was a teen in the 80s, my first "RC" only went forward and turned in reverse, the BF was a tremendous step up from this, even the Hornet I had previously.

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1 hour ago, nowinaminute said:

I think that's the crux of it really, I need to stick to the dirt or at least grass where I won't wince if it rolls over.

I suppose my nearest little area I go to drive (a car park) can be deceptive too. There's lots of gravel and loose dirt but it's also rough concrete and tarmac so you can go from sliding to suddenly being on a clean patch and it goes from 0-100% grip instantly. It has proven to be a bit of a torture test even for some of the best handling vehicles.

I think perhaps I have underestimated just how much I've managed to improve the Lunchbox too. I can't drive the Blackfoot like this in the same car park:
 


It now has DT03 front arms and a prototype 4 link system at the rear and I'm able to drive it pretty hard in that carpark before it will tip. Perhaps I'm simply not giving the Lunchbox enough credit and in turn, judging the Blackfoot too harshly. The Lunchbox tends to have a built in stability aid too because it is very reluctant to turn in sharply until a lot of speed has bled off anyway.

There's another spot not far away that is all dirt/gravel so I'll pop over there tomorrow after work if I get time and see how it does there, hopefully it will raise some smiles. I'll definitely think about taking it to the beach too, nothing rolls on sand!

lol, yep, that's not Lunchbox. 

That's Lunchbox 4 Tamiya would release in the year 2039.  

 

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Sorry to hear your not enjoying your Blackfoot @nowinaminute, I have one myself (re-re) and is my go to runner along with the Javelin as first picks for blat. 

I put a 17.5t 2200Kv Hobbywing justock in it using the TBLE-02 and I find it just right for some fun getting airborne in the right spot drifting the rear end out on dirt. I expect this would feel very tame compared to your Lunchbox though  ;). I must admit I do avoid hard surface like bitumen / concrete because the grating body is a cringe moment. But has only happened once putting a very light scuff on the roof & a spot light. I haven’t glued the tyres on and mounted the steering tie rods underneath the servo saver to eliminate bump steer. I also run the shocks without any spacers ( softest ) and found it much less tippy over then with them in where I drive it. My drive shafts have never popped out maybe because of a 0.3 shim I put in the gearbox and the suspension sitting a little lower on the softest setting. 

But if all else fails for you and you really can’t live with it I’ll give you a tenner for it 😁.

 

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I have a King Blackfoot and it shares some of the handling challenges and scuffing up the body every time it goes for a tumble. My solution was to buy a second body to be used as a display body so I stopped getting worried about the scratches. Then I put a 4000kV motor in it and modded the rear gear case to take a Lunch Box wheelie bar. It would bring a smile to your face every time the front end lifts up and ended up being more enjoyable to drive.

Agree on getting more enjoyment out of running on dirt. Getting a good drift happening through a big sweeper is a challenge and very rewarding when you get it right.

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Although i don't have a Blackfoot i am experiencing EXACTLY the same anxiety / frustration with my Comical Hornet. Well, maybe not exactly the same as it has a lexan shell, but i empathise. I wanted something a fair bit slower than my usual tackle, a bit silly and fun. But running it on tje road outside my house it just constantly tips over when turning at any kind of (modest) speed. It's a lot better on grass, doesn't tip over at all. Sounds like the advice above to find a loose surface is the one. 

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11 hours ago, nowinaminute said:

It now has DT03 front arms and a prototype 4 link system at the rear and I'm able to drive it pretty hard in that carpark before it will tip.

Sounds awesome! Please post some pics of the chassis. Would love to see it. 

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5 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

Sounds like the advice above to find a loose surface is the one. 

I think you're right. I take for granted how tough that carpark is too with its continual alternating between dirt and tarmac, like sliding along a frozen puddle and then hitting dry pavement!

Something else occurred to me too. It had been blowing a storm up here for almost a week. I think a lot of the dust had been swept away in the wind. I did notice little "dunes" of it all along the kerb but didn't put two and two together.

If I get time after work, I'll take it a little further away to some dirt. I'm lucky in this valley because there used to be a train line for coal but it was turned into a footpath years ago. Some of the old colliery sites haven't been developed so they are a haven of dirt tracks and access roads etc. All covered in glorious dirt and coal dust and the footpath makes it easy to get to them because obviously the rail line used to serve the collieries.

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On 7/1/2019 at 11:29 AM, smirk-racing said:

Sounds awesome! Please post some pics of the chassis. Would love to see it. 

Sure, it's still in prototype form at the moment but I'll share a few pics. A very kind friend did all the hard work of designing it, I just had it printed and assembled it. The design is really elegant and in practice it works really well. It was my idea to flip the gearbox around to create more room for the links and what used to be the pivot mount will become a wheelie bar but otherwise, he was the brains behind the operation. I just had a dream and some measurements. The links are just simple m3 rod.

Spot the obvious mistake with the upper links 😶

likZuZD.jpg

T4VcEhA.jpg

E9qrZXj.jpg

And the front end was possible thanks to an adapter @ThunderDragonCy designed to allow DT03 front arms to be fitted to the GH2 but it also works for the Lunchie.

Those two mods made a world of difference to the amount of flex and how well it handles.

g93QxnZ.jpg

I'm still in the tweaking phase at the moment and the design isn't finalised, the guy who designed it intends to have some CNC'd in aluminium at some point. There should be a buggy version too and even some of my Nikko stuff that uses a very similar rear gearbox to the Tamiya ones.

I guess I could make a thread about it now the cat is out of the bag!

I'm not sure if the printed version would handle 6s but it managed 3s ok lol could do with a diff locker next time though!

 

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I've got the three original ORV's, black foot, mud blaster and monster beetle which all have the hard bodies. I've not had the same problems with mine. I tend to drive on grass and then off onto a flagged area at full speed for the hand brake turns. No issues with tipping. I think these are a great fun truck. Mine run oil filled shocks and have the silver cans fitted which I think are great for these trucks. I've got a wt01 with the tall shock mounts fitted and I have the same problem with this as you do with your black foot.  

I think lots of people love the handling of the ORV but out of every 100 people there are bound to be some that don't like certain models. Also if you've got used to this impressively modified lunch box you've made it may just highlight the deficiencies in the black foot. 

I think you should stick with it though.

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Well, I think I was enjoying it but about 5 minutes in the servo self destructed 🤣😭

I knew I should have changed it when I got it, no idea what the S3003 had been through before I got it. I was supposed to put a cheapie but goodie like a Hobbyking or MG996R in there.

Absolutely typical! I got a bit of video that I'll post later.

It definitely seemed happier in the dirt although it was very fine coal dust/spoils so it was a real handful, especially with that crappy servo. I don't even make it to the harder packed dirt where I think it would have shone.

Not going to get a chance to drive it again till Wednesday probably!

 20190701_200932.thumb.jpg.e7b9b1dc7611681f665b49d59c4f210f.jpg20190701_201030.thumb.jpg.de6dc6c670a69ba990aa99c80bf0290a.jpg

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I definitely had more fun with it in the dirt. I think half the problem is I forget how challenging that old carpark can be, it's like the surface of the moon, probably the worst surface imaginable for avoiding tip overs.

There's plenty of dusty patches to slide in but it's interspersed with clean parts and the transition from sliding to 100% grip can send the best of them into a roll. I didn't realise how much the wind can sweep the place clean of dust either, so some days it's much less forgiving.

I'll go back to the same dirt spit on Wednesday hopefully. It will be interesting to see if the rear end is *slightly* more manageable with a new servo too. The S3003 was apparently dying and it wasn't the fastest servo even in it's prime anyway so there was quite a delay between control inputs and results.

I'll put a servo in tonight and look at a few other things. I might super glue the servo saver to cut out some slop. Maybe centralize the servo too while I'm in there? I can make some new links with m3 rod easily enough. I'm going to shim the front wheels too because they are sliding back and forth on the axles quite a lot.

 

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If you modified your BF as much as your LB it would be a fair comparison. 

With an MiP diff, 16T brushless & a Lexan shell & my rere Blackfoot is plenty fun to drive, especially on lose surface or grass with wet sections but it still rolls over when the grip bites on corners.

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2 hours ago, nowinaminute said:

 

That would be about on par with mine 👍🏻

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15 hours ago, nowinaminute said:

I guess I could make a thread about it now the cat is out of the bag!

Please do! Looks like some spectacular work. I am quite envious of your friend who designs you amazing parts like this one. Please tell your friend I'll be first in line to buy some aluminum parts if he ever wants to sell any.

Would love to see the full description and hear your thoughts on how the various parts perform. The video looks great.

I tried various methods to get limited slip action - heavy marine grease produced some limited slip action, but when it got flung around, it would create a lot of drag elsewhere. I tried the diff locked as well and found it a bit too much.

In my other 2wd vehicles I use 500k diff oil, but I've never found away to capture any sort of fluid in a CW-01 tamiya diff. That would be an awesome project, though, and I can envision how it could be done.... 

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9 hours ago, smirk-racing said:

I am quite envious of your friend who designs you amazing parts like this one.

Me too. When I try to use 3d software I end up with stuff like this:

u5VoP3C.jpg.a381dee46f89006aab24181b151ac90a.jpg

I have all the ambition but none of the ability lol

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Well I took it out yesterday and broke another servo! It was my fault this time though.

There's so much slop in the steering and front end that I glued the servo saver to try and get rid of a little slop. I've done this loads of times on other vehicles but I usually use a metal gear servo and the glue breaks before the servo does but on this occasion, I only had a regular servo to hand and it apparently wasn't a match for Tommy Walsh's mighty Poundland super glue :lol:

There's a metal gear one on there now. I'll have a look into shimming some of the slop out and then maybe I can go back to a normal servo saver anyway.

Besides the technical glitch, I enjoyed driving it a lot on the dirt again and it definitely does better there, the only two times I rolled it where when it happened to be sliding and then hit a patch of ground with more grip. On once ocaasion it was a clump of grass and on another it was a section of larger stones like railway ballast.

I think I definitely need another shell for the shelf though. Even driving it on dirt it's not going to be 100% immune to damage and I'd rather be able to relax and just go for it without worrying about the shell all the time. My Lunchbox has a bashing shell and shelf one too. I occasionally go over the bashing one with some fine wet and dry just to tidy it up a bit and then the shelf shell I only use for special occasions like the beach or on grass where the damage risk is much lower.

There should be some more video soon. I might wait till I can get her back out with the metal servo though to get a bit more footage first.

F8T69Mf.jpg

 

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Looks like you’re enjoying the Blackfoot now 👍🏻😉

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