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legau

FF01 Civic 1994 restore or not?

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Hello Guys, 

I finally decided to post here ; I need your help,or at least your suggestions. (And sorry about my English it is not my mother tongue, please don’t hesitate to correct me if i’m Wrong)

I have an old civic from 1994, it was in the attic for a long time. Since I recently bought a TT02B plasma edge II that I decided to upgrade a little bit (i will ask for your recommandations on that matter later, but on another post), I put my tble-02s and torque tuned motor in the civic (the Tt02b received a brushless upgrade and very happy for the moment).

But the FF01 is really strange to drive. Of course it’s a FWD, but the torque effect on the steering is really impressive, almost uncontrollable. I mean I have to be really gentle with the thrust lever, if i go full thrust, it’s almost a 90 degrees turn.

i notice the tires are slick but very slippery ; the rubber does not look so well, if I can say. 

Also the oil struts are very soft, even with the spacers, when I accelerate, the frame touch the ground (I know the ground clearance is very low but anyway...) 

The four wheels seems to have a little play, too much compared to my brand new plasma edge. I suspect there was bushings installed in the civic and not ball bearings.

so I wonder which parts would you change / upgrade first? 

What would you do, maintenance wise ? Open everything and re-grease it ?! Change the bushings for ball bearings ?

change the toe-in/toe-out? Other setup?

What are your recommendations ?

thanks 

 

 

 

 

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sound like the differential isnt working corrrectly and everything up front isnt rotating freely.

So yes pull it apart, clean, regrease and rebuild. And maybe spend it a set of ballbearings.

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The FF-01 can be a very pleasant car to drive when it is working well. I have one in my fleet and it is a good performer despite its age. 

Ball bearings are an almost essential upgrade as the stock bushings sound like they are worn out. I got mine from Rcbearings.co.uk. 

The ball diff is well protected from dirt by the gearbox housing so it might just need to be checked for tightness. If it feels gritty, then take it apart and rebuild it with fresh grease and perhaps new balls, but if it feels smooth, just make sure it is tight enough not to slip and leave it be.

The stock steering linkage is very sloppy, with most of the slop coming from the bent wire drag link between the left and right arms of the rack. A ballraced alloy rack for a TA-02 fits well and gets rid of much of the slop. 

After years in the attic, the tyre rubber has probably perished, so a new set of tyres would be a good idea. Tell us more about the surfaces you will be running it on and we can suggest some tyres to suit.

If the suspension is sagging, your springs might be a bit tired, especially if they have been supporting the weight of the car while it has been in storage. A replacement set might be required. A set of 53440 standard length touring car springs including soft, medium, stiff and extra stiff will give you some setup options. 

Since the car comes with oil shocks as standard, the only other essential upgrade I would recommend is a steel pinion. The stock alloy one wears out quite fast and also accelerates wear to the spur. A steel one is more durable and well worth the money as it helps the spur last longer - an important consideration as FF-01 gearsets are not as easy to find as they were back in the day. 

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I have a modified FF01 bought in 1996 and ran it less than 20 times. But I decided to just make it a shelf queen instead of running it again just because I'm afraid to break it. Parts for this kit is very hard to find now unless you have them 3D printed. So instead, I got myself an FF03 because I just love to drive the FF as a touring car. The FF03 has also lot's of parts still available in the market and shares parts with other Tamiya chassis platforms (TB03/04/05, TA05/06, TRF415/416).

Here's my FF01 with upgraded FRP chassis, turnbuckle upper suspension arms, upgraded steering with ball bearing, TRF shocks, full ball sealed bearings and DIY rear stabilizer.

sd7ZoKxl.jpg

wJ55QXbl.jpg

It's such a beauty and I don't want to break her. Hahaha!

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Thanks guys for the replies. The FF01 of nicadraus is superb!! 

If i summarise :

- 1 ball bearing set. Is it the same as the TT02B ? (Same for all tamiya models?)

- 1 new set of tires. I use it on the concrete mostly, on small roads in front of th house. Never on a track. Any suggestion ?

- 53440 spring for the shocks and no oil? 

- may be a silly question but how do I recognise a steel pinion from an alloy one ? I bought a lot of pinions for my tt02b, is the hop up parts in steel ?

- steering linkage from the TA02. 

Could you suggest a place online where I could find all those parts? And if you have the parts number to be sure I don’t order the bad ones ;)

 

other silly question:  I have an old receiver on it. And it needs to be powered, so I used the 4 AA batteries pack to power it. But can I use the power from the ESC to power it or it will burn ? 

 

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13 hours ago, legau said:

Thanks guys for the replies. The FF01 of nicadraus is superb!! 

If i summarise :

- 1 ball bearing set. Is it the same as the TT02B ? (Same for all tamiya models?)

- 1 new set of tires. I use it on the concrete mostly, on small roads in front of th house. Never on a track. Any suggestion ?

- 53440 spring for the shocks and no oil? 

- may be a silly question but how do I recognise a steel pinion from an alloy one ? I bought a lot of pinions for my tt02b, is the hop up parts in steel ?

- steering linkage from the TA02. 

Could you suggest a place online where I could find all those parts? And if you have the parts number to be sure I don’t order the bad ones ;)

 

other silly question:  I have an old receiver on it. And it needs to be powered, so I used the 4 AA batteries pack to power it. But can I use the power from the ESC to power it or it will burn ? 

 

In answer to your questions:

- Different chassis use different numbers of bearings of different sizes, so you would want to get a bearing kit for the FF-01. You could also buy the bearings individually, but kits are often cheaper. This is the one I use. https://www.rcbearings.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=642

- If you aren't racing, you don't need fancy or expensive tyres. In fact, the really cheap Chinese ones sold under the Fastrax brand in the UK work really well on tarmac. They don't last a long time, but they are cheap to replace when they wear out, and come pre-mounted to quite sturdy wheels. Link here https://www.modelsport.co.uk/fastrax-10-spoke-touring-car-wheel-and-tyre-set-4-white/rc-car-products/33236

- 53440 is a good choice for springs, but you'll want oil in your shocks. That is what gives the car its damping. Tamiya's stock yellow oil is a good all-rounder. You'll probably want to replace the shaft seals if the car has been stored for a while.

- Steel pinions are typically heavier than alloy ones and duller in colour, and a lot harder. Without knowing which pinions you bought for your TT-02B, I can't say whether they are alloy or steel I'm afraid.

- The TA-01, TA-02 and DF-01 ballraced alloy steering racks are basically the same thing, and all will work with the FF-01. GPM's DF1048 steering rack is what I use on mine. Quite a few eBay vendors sell them. Here is a link to GPM's own site. https://www.gpmracing-parts.com/tamiya-df01-steering-assembly-with-bearings-1set-gpm-df1048-p-90071584.html

- Your receiver can be powered via the ESC, saving the weight of the 4 extra batteries. It is a good idea.However to stop any of your gear losing its magic smoke you'll need a voltage regulator, usually called a BEC. You might find that your receiver and/or ESC already has one built in. If not, you can buy them on eBay from many vendors. I like the Hobbywing UBEC personally.

 

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Thanks TurnipJF.

I will try to order the ball bearing kit you recommended, thanks.

In the mean time, I open up the shocks and cleaned everything up, refilled with new oil and the difference is massive. I still need the spacers for the springs (unfortunately, they were stocked a long time with spacers, so the spring are a little bit "loose").

Also, I tried to dismantle the diff, but I don't have the notice (schematics?) and never opened up a ball diff. Do you know where I could find some help with drawings on how to unmount / clean and remount a ball diff ? or do I just dismantle everything and pray ( :D)  any advise ?

i already have the ball diff grease, the ceramic grease, a remains of the anti-wear grease and another team losi blue grease. What is your recommendation for the usage of these greases ? On which parts do I need to apply them ? => ball diff (that's obvious), ceramic grease on the pinion and spur gear ?? for the ball bearing, do i need to grease them ? the shaft and steering ?

For the tyres , I bought the fastraxx ones in my local shop, and it's also a huge difference in the handling. Unfortunately, they only had "dirt" tyres, not really the ones that fit the civic like the ones you recommended above. I think i will order the same later, it's definitely cheap. thanks for the tips ;-)

Thanks for the steering, may be I can wait to break something before replacing it. Will it really improves the handling or it will just reinforce the whole steering?

YES! I didn't know every channel on the receiver can be powered. (we learn every day right?) and also, my power switch was "blocked" and could not be fully open on the "ON" position. Everything is fixed, i dropped the battery pack, and life gets easier :)

Again, thanks for your precious advises and suggestions, it is greatly appreciated

Apologize for the bad english

 

 

 

 

 

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Oh just missed the part of the pinions and the steering with the slop.

For the pinions, for the TT02B, i bought the Tamiya hopup parts, 18-19, 20-21 and 22-23 pinions (if i remember well)

The original 17T ones is black. The hopups are steel color.

But for the FF01 it is a 24, I suppose we never changed it, and it is steel color as well.

For the sloppy steering, you meant that it really needs to be changed, or it is just because it can bend, or become damaged after runs ?

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On 7/5/2019 at 11:18 AM, legau said:

Oh just missed the part of the pinions and the steering with the slop.

For the pinions, for the TT02B, i bought the Tamiya hopup parts, 18-19, 20-21 and 22-23 pinions (if i remember well)

The original 17T ones is black. The hopups are steel color.

But for the FF01 it is a 24, I suppose we never changed it, and it is steel color as well.

For the sloppy steering, you meant that it really needs to be changed, or it is just because it can bend, or become damaged after runs ?

Here is a link to the manual:

https://www.tamiya.com/english/rc/rcmanual/58127civic.pdf

This should show you all you need to know about how to dismantle and rebuild the ball diff, where to put which grease, etc.

Those pinions you mention sound like the alloy ones. Compare their weight to that of the black steel one that came with your TT-02B. If they feel noticeably lighter, they are alloy. The stock one that came with the FF-01 is alloy too.

Regarding the steering, the alloy setup is stronger than the stock plastic one, but this isn't the biggest advantage - even the plastic parts are plenty strong enough. The primary reason for this upgrade is reduction in slop which translates to more precise and predictable handling as the wheels will wobble less.

Plus it looks nice!

2019-07-07_10-14-11

 

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Perfect, many thanks. New ball bearings ordered, new tyres, and new springs. 

Let’s hope i find why after a run or two the gears are skipping. I know the motor mount is not the easiest one, but I think I correctly fixed it.

any idea ?

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I haven't had any issues with the drivetrain in my FF-01, so I can't give a definite answer. A few things come to mind that you may want to check though.

If the bushings in your gearbox are severely worn, it is theoretically possible that this might lead to misalignment between the gears and diff. Replacing them with bearings should sort this out.

It is also theoretically possible that extended use may have worn the splines on the diff outdrives allowing them to skip in the diff.

It might be an issue with the diff itself, however this is more likely to lead to slipping rather than skipping as it is a ball diff.

It is also theoretically possible that a borderline loose grub screw might be allowing the pinion to skip on the motor shaft.

And then there is the pinion mesh itself. You might want to double check this even though you sound confident that you have it set correctly.

I can't think of anything else that might allow the gearbox to skip. Anybody else have any ideas?

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Well in the meantime, thank you for your ideas. Once I receive my parts, i will dismantle everything and clean this up correctly installing the new parts. I keep you posted if I hear more weird noises. Thanks again

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Here is a pic of the car, just out of the box from the attic. I will start the dismantle very soon since I received the ball bearings.

unfortunately today, we did a small run (10 min) and at the end the gears were skipping again. I really don’t know why this is happening.

Every time, I unmount the motor, check everything then remount everything and it is working again. When unmounting, I don’t see any loose screw. I also check through the little window to see if the gears are correctly aligned and everything seems perfect.

i’m totally Lost. Would that be possible the the torque tuned motor has too much torque compared to the original ? I really doubt but what strange is that the gear skipping always appears when applying full thrust... and seems to be worse with time. 

Certainly something not keeping tight but what?

 

8D385D24-196E-4546-B9B3-C2B8A491E764.jpeg

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Make some pictures of the gears and gearbox. If gears are skipping you should have some damage showing on the teeth.

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I just replace the motor pinion. But still same problem. All the gears seems fine but I have a huge torque steering. It s impossible to handle. 

The gear skipping is really present when I turn full deflection and accelerate full throttle. 

Any idea ?

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Ah, have a look at the diff outdrives sounds like those arent sitting correctly and may even be damaged.

Or maybe its one of the  dogbones skipping out of the drivecups.

Have you taken the gearbox apart yet and regreased all gears and the diff?

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there isnt that much in the gearbox, check the splines of SA1 and SA2 and the diff, other possibility if the gears have to much resistance the lid A2 may lift and the idler will skip check if all three screw holes are intact and are free of any cracks

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They seems to sit correctly but the guy who mounted the car forgot to put the external bushings. So the wheel axle was playing in all directions. I put now all the ball bearings and regreased the ball diff. 

May be the diff outdrives are worn but this is not shocking me at first look. Of course if I could compare to a new one, should be easy ;) I don’t think it’s the dogbones, because I tested full deflections and they sit correctly in the diff outdrives and in the wheel side. 

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The noise appears when the wheel is “jumping” so I guess when there is kind a vibration, like a shock or something. 

The A2 seems correctly closed but I will check for cracks indeed.

if i replace all the gears and then it is not that, i would be fed up :-)

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If the wheel bushings were missing, this could have allowed the axle more play than it is designed to have, which would allow the dog bones to sit further out than they're designed to, which would allow the diff outdrives to slide slightly out of place and not fully engage with the diff, which has likely damaged the splines. I think you might find that parts SA1 and SA2 need replacing, or more likely the pot metal parts inside the diff that they engage with will need replacing.

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Of course it could also be that the car is making the usual chattering noise that you will hear when dog bones are running at speed while at their full deflection. This is entirely normal and the only way to really get rid of it is to run double cardan CV joints instead of dog bones.

Could you perhaps post a video with audio of the issue? You might find that there is nothing wrong at all.

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Yes I should post a video when I come back home in a few days.

and what about the torque steer, is it normal on this model to have so much torque steer ?

i set the toe in as explained in the manual for the front wheel, this is a little better but When I go idle after full thrust, now the opposite is true, she is steering the other Way. Very strange handle..,

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If one of your diff outdrives is slipping, one wheel would be receiving more power than the other, so some very strange handling would occur.

Usually the FF-01 is a well behaved chassis. 

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25 minutes ago, TurnipJF said:

If one of your diff outdrives is slipping, one wheel would be receiving more power than the other, so some very strange handling would occur.

Usually the FF-01 is a well behaved chassis. 

Do you think it would be wise to order the full new ball bearing kit with the 2 outdrives ? 

When a ball diff is new or correctly greased, is it easy to turn or really difficult ? Because mine seems to be difficult to rotate, well there is some force if I can say

 

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