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Hibernaculum

As of 2019 which Tamiya kits are still made in Japan?

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Just curious. ^_^

Friendly note: I don’t want this to be a debate about whether it “matters” or not. Some people just like owning Japanese made kits, as that’s the homeland of the historic Tamiya brand. There are basically zero other R/C brands left on the market now with even part of their stock made in Japan anymore. (When once upon a time, 80% were made in Japan, and the remainder were made in Europe/USA.)

I own some Tamiya products made in the Philippines also. And I’m happy to. But if there were two identical Tamiya kits on the shelf, and one said “made in Japan” - I’d probably take that one over the other one. To support the home factory.

Personally, I choose not to buy any RC cars or RC products made in China, at all. So if every RC car is made there one day, I’ll be finished with the hobby as far as new kits go.

So which recent Tamiya kits (if any?) have been made in Japan?

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Now that's an interesting collection. I am curious to know what is made in Japan and what is made elsewhere. It's never crossed my mind to look at where they are made.

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Personally i'm indifferent to where the kit is made - I'd rather Tamiya remain profitable as a business than offer me a 100% made in Japan product that they are making a loss on. I'd love a 100% made in Japan kit offered at a reasonable price and have Tamiya make a decent profit on it, but if that isn't possible I'll accept the next best thing. As long as some % of profits go back to Tamiya then buying any kit is still supporting Tamiya, regardless of where it is actually manufactured. Don't forget that manufacturing the kit is just the last step of the process. Even if your TT01 or whatever is manufactured in the Philippines, some % of your money pays the product designers/engineers/testers in Japan* who invented the TT01 and are currently working on products which are yet to be released.
*Unless they outsourced this also - if anyone knows, please do post.

Re: Quality of manufacturing - imo it has more to do with how much money and attention is put into the manufacturing facility than where in the world it is located. Companies like Toyota and Honda manufacture in places like Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, Mexico, etc because they simply would not be competitive if they manufactured their low-end products in Japan. Choosing the manufacturing location can also be a problem of logistics: shipping raw materials into Japan and the finished products out of Japan may be much more costly than in other places. Chinese labour, building lease costs etc are no longer as cheap as you think. The main reason for continuing manufacturing in China and some other places in Asia is mostly logistics.

btw, curious why you don't mind buying a Philippines made Tamiya but won't buy a Chinese RC? if your motivation to not buy chinese products is your perception of the workers wages and conditions, you should stop buying Tamiya right now because Philippines is much worse (speculative: we don't know the specifics about wages and conditions of where Tamiya parts are made)
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And if it's because you think that it's bad that one country has too much % of global exports, well that used to be Japan!

MlH0Yay.png

Times are just changin'

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45 minutes ago, nbTMM said:

btw, if your motivation to not buy chinese products is your perception of the workers wages....

It isn't. My motivation is something else entirely, which I won't get into as this is not a political forum (I probably shouldn't have mentioned China at all). 

I somehow suspect that even if my first post was one pure sentence: "Which kits are made in Japan?", I would still get answers about how it doesn't matter where they are made. :D That is not the question.

So, to repeat:

4 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

Friendly note: I don’t want this to be a debate about whether it “matters” or not.

I am just asking a general question about whether any kits are still made in Japan. Not trying to start a debate about whether it matters to anyone or not.

If you've bought a kit recently and it was made in Japan, would be interested to hear it. I think most R/C production is from the Philippines plant. I'm wondering if all R/C production is from there now.

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Can't help you with the RC stuff, but you got me curious, so I went and checked all the boxes of my Tamiya static kits. (The only RC box I have is for a Futaba FX10.)

2 1/24 sports car series kits, recent issues of older kits: both made in the Phillipines.

1 1/48 military airplane kit: made in Italy by Italeri. (This kit was a gift 3 years ago, bought new in a hobby shop, which tells me Italeri hasn't moved their manufacturing.) Where the Tamiya-branded box and instructions cam from, I don't know.

2 1/35 military car kits: both made in Japan. One is no more than a couple years old. The 1/35 military models are a huge deal for Tamiya, so I guess it doesn't surprise me that they would keep manufacturing of them close to home.

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Tbh guys I read this and winced.

I saw @Hibernaculum ask an innocent question - noting it’s hard to divorce quality from origin.

@markbt73 is also pretty much spot on beyond r/c - esp the figures.

For me, comparing Japan vs RoW build ultimately prods the difference between re re vs new collector opportunism.

And, beyond 1984, I frankly don’t care guys :) 

If we honestly want to get into US vs China politics in a forum of good natured, self effacing, hobby nerds I’ll dib out now.

@Hibernaculum meant well - and I’m an applauding UK bystander 👍

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Nothing I own is more than 9 years old at this point, so scanning the boxes on my shelf I have the following from Japan.  Note, these were purchased over the course of 9 years, not all at once, so production could have always moved in the interim.  I'm just looking at the boxes and cataloguing for analysis.

Japan

DF01 Top Force (2017)

SRB Sand Scorcher (2010)

SRB Buggy Champ (2009)

TT01R Type-E Chassis Kit

RM01 Tom's 84C

RM01 Porsche 956

RM01 Mazda 787B

CC01 Unimog 406

DF03 Dark Impact

GF01 Heavy Dump Truck

Philippines

FAV

CW01 Lunch Box

DT01 Mad Bull

WR02G Tumbling Bull

Grasshopper

Grasshopper II

DF02 Plasma Edge

TT02B Plasma Edge II

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Japan

TRF416X

XR311

Scania R620

Grand Hauler

CR01 Unimog 406

Bruiser

Pershing M26

Group C R91CP

F104W Lotus 79

F104W Wolf WR1

F103 Tyrrell P34 Japan GP

F104W 312T3

F104 PRO II

F103GT Toyota TS050

F103GT Nissan GTR LM Nismo

TRF201 (42167)

FF03 Civic VTi

FF03 Civic Type R R3

FF03R

FF04 Evo

TA05IFS bodied variants

All TA05V2 variants including bodied, VDF, GLD, and R

All DB01 variants including bodied, R, and RR

TRF417V5

CC01 Unimog 425

Philippines

M05 Mini Cooper Racing

M06 Alpine A110

TT02 Impreza '99

TT02D Civic, RX7, Supra

TT01 Racing Truck family

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Japan

TB03 all bodies and VDS

TB04 both gens of PRO and EVO 6

EVO 7

TA06R

DN01 Zahhak

Philippines

Subaru BRAT

And to throw off the whole Japan/Philippines discussion, TRF801X and TRF801XT are made in Taiwan.

I'm a modern/re-release collector only, ask me anything... :D

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From my point of view, if it has FRP, carbon fiber, meaningful metal content, performance, or nice detailing it gets made in Japan still.  The F103GT/F104W releases, the Unimog releases, the tractor trucks and tanks, TA/TB/FF on-road, DN and DB buggies, CC and CR, and most TRF come from Japan.

It seems like most of the ABS plastic, self-tapping screw, leisure-oriented models come from the Philippines.  Many DT and DF, TT01 and TT02, M, and CW chassis come from there.

With the 801X and 801XT models being USA-only and sourced/made in Taiwan, that suggests a unique management decision about the product back in the day.

I haven't looked at this one in detail, but I think export/import laws don't require 100% pure content to marked made somewhere.  In other words, Tamiya could be sourcing some percentage of content from China but the product is kitted and boxed in Japan, therefore it gets a "Made in Japan" marking.  It's a global economy now so I would not expect a kit to be 100% of anything.

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56 minutes ago, speedy_w_beans said:

I haven't looked at this one in detail, but I think export/import laws don't require 100% pure content to marked made somewhere.  In other words, Tamiya could be sourcing some percentage of content from China but the product is kitted and boxed in Japan, therefore it gets a "Made in Japan" marking.  It's a global economy now so I would not expect a kit to be 100% of anything.

Almost certainly true. In fact, it would astonish me if Tamiya ESCs and other electronics are made anywhere other than China. But then, the ESCs are only for USA-bound kits, if I recall...

EDIT: Just checked the back of a TEU-104. Yep, "Made In China" molded into the bottom of the case.

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If you look at the listings at RCMart and Stellamodels, several models are listed with ESCs at this point, so it doesn't seem to be a USA-only thing (anymore?).

@Hibernaculum, so where are you going with this?  There are plenty of modern Tamiya kits still made in Japan.  Our family has generations of Lego kits -- kits my parents played with, kits I played with, kits my son and daughter played with.  Some were made in Denmark and others in Hungary; we might even have a Mexico kit here and there.  It never made any difference to us; Lego quality seems to be consistent regardless of when and where the bricks were molded and boxes/manuals were printed.  It's pretty amazing to see a 1960s Lego brick still mate perfectly with a 2010s brick.  I'm guessing the headquarters in Denmark has made absolutely sure through their design/development/manufacturing processes that all Lego-brand products make the same good impression on their customers.

Likewise, I would expect Tamiya's culture is enforced strictly in the Philippines.  In fact, I'm even more convinced of this because I visited a Japanese touch panel manufacturer (SMK) at their Philippines plant a decade ago.  Though the factory floor was filled with Filipino workers, the shift leaders, management, and on-site engineers were all Japanese.  The machinery was modern, and clean room conditions were maintained to guarantee no dust between the touch panel and LCD module.

In the USA we see similar things at Hondajet.  I don't work there, but the word on the street is there may be quite a few Americans trained in aviation manufacturing and many Americans knowledgeable in aviation maintenance and avionics, but all management and significant engineering functions are filled with Japanese.  The stories/anecdotes suggest the Japanese strictly enforce their culture there.

It's good business practice no matter what business you're in -- you send representatives of your culture to your new manufacturing location and make sure things are done your way.  Some of the American companies I worked for designated people to go overseas or to go to Latin America to make sure things were done per corporate culture.

Anyhow, like @Juggular says, we're all free to enjoy the hobby however we want.  Hopefully the data on my kits' manufacturing origins satisfies your curiosity.

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2 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Just checked the back of a TEU-104. Yep, "Made In China" molded into the bottom of the case.

For some years now, there have been a certain small number of products with the Tamiya logo, which were either too trivial to be made by Tamiya and were outsourced to China - for example fabric carry bags and souvenir items, etc. Or that involved off-the-shelf electronics - and ESCs are an example there.

Many other accessory items, are still made in Japan though, such as paints and most craft tools. 

3 hours ago, speedy_w_beans said:

Tamiya could be sourcing some percentage of content from China but the product is kitted and boxed in Japan,

Apart from contained electronics like the ESC or perhaps motors that are sourced from outside - I actually doubt this is true. There’d be little economic need for Tamiya to fabricate any other kit parts (which are pretty much all molded parts) by third parties outside their main factories.

Anyway, thanks @speedy_w_beans and @markbt73 for the lists.

1 hour ago, speedy_w_beans said:

so where are you going with this?  There are plenty of modern Tamiya kits still made in Japan.

This is good to hear. I mainly raised the question because:

a) I just wanted to know.

b) Tamiya is a very patriotic, historic company. And it’s history clearly matters more to it, than most other companies.

We consumers in western countries admire a company like Tamiya. Some of us love the brand quite a lot. Some of us simply see it as a good product. While some of us, unfortunately, think the company is “nice” - yet ultimately only care about our wallets and buying the cheapest RC cars possible. Which is why some people will even buy illegal Chinese Tamiya clones without caring whether this could harm Tamiya.

Tamiya is a deeply patriotic company though. You can sense this reading Master Modeller, or indeed any interview with Shunsaku Tamiya.

At some 84 years of age now and still (seemingly since the death of Masayuki Tamiya his son-in-law) running the company, I feel he is one of the last of a breed of owner-enthusiasts and founders - like artisans who established world famous brands that became synonymous with quality, and were driven by extreme attention to detail. He is, himself, just a modeler.

Tamiya-san frankly belongs in a category with Leo Fender, Enzo Ferrari, Carl Zeiss and others of that ilk. But most of those other legends are now gone from the world.

Brands legendary for quality, are always born and begin from a small factory in their country of origin. That is how they establish and control their quality. And there is ultimately a lot of pride associated with that. And as the years and decades pass, it is always those early examples of their work - from the country of origin - that are the most coveted.

I personally do believe that country of manufacture, and more specifically “plant of manufacture” do make a difference. Of course it does. This is the whole reason why manufacturing plant awards are given out in the automobile industry.

However, without even arguing about that side of it - history and gratitude alone should be enough reason to appreciate Japan’s role (and continuing role) in RC manufacture.

Perhaps we can simply agree that its cool if Tamiya still make products at their home plant - given the history. Because I’m pretty certain Shunsaku would consider it a sad day if the Japanese plant ceased manufacture entirely one day.

So I just think we as Tamiya fans should be glad that a company as legendary as this one still exists, still manufactures some items in the very place where the whole legend began decades ago... and still even has its founder and chairman overseeing things at the age of 84. 

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Japan is where the electric RC car hobby really began, and Japanese pride is the reason it affected us all so much that we became not just owners - but enthusiasts. 

All legendary brands and products have a similar origin story to this. Most others have long lost their founders, or have long since off-shored everything in name only, to mass market plants in other parts of the world. (Most fashion brands are terrible examples of this - witness Burberry and others).

Tamiya to a large extent, is still steeped in history and has held onto that manufacturing history and tradition when I am sure they could have done what all other RC brands have done, and outsource *all* production elsewhere. Their products are still easily affordable, hence I admire them for the sense of control they have retained over what they produce. 

Who knows, maybe one day Tamiya as a brand, will be bought and sold, and it will become nothing more than a logo slapped on products. 

But as of now, it is still a brand with enormous authenticity and provenance - one of the last perhaps, of a bygone era. 

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That's one of the things I really do like about Tamiya: the fact that they're still "in the family," as well as keeping the manufacturing at home.

I would like to point out, however (if I may get a little patriotic myself, for a moment), that they're not unique in that regard, even these days. We even still have quite a number of privately-owned RC manufacturers here in the USA: Pro-Line, RJ Speed (nee Bolink), Parma, C&M (who started in RC and now make parts for full-size race cars), and McAllister all come to mind. Smaller players, to be sure, but not unknown by any means. And all have a good 30-40 years of history in the hobby.

They're the reason I get so disgusted with Associated and Losi being gobbled up by Thunder Tiger and Horizon. These companies are proof that you can stay local and privately-owned, if you so choose. 

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1 hour ago, markbt73 said:

They're the reason I get so disgusted with Associated and Losi being gobbled up by Thunder Tiger and Horizon. These companies are proof that you can stay local and privately-owned, if you so choose. 

Yep 

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2 hours ago, markbt73 said:

I would like to point out, however (if I may get a little patriotic myself, for a moment), that they're not unique in that regard, even these days. We even still have quite a number of privately-owned RC manufacturers here in the USA: Pro-Line, RJ Speed (nee Bolink), Parma, C&M (who started in RC and now make parts for full-size race cars), and McAllister all come to mind. Smaller players, to be sure, but not unknown by any means. And all have a good 30-40 years of history in the hobby.

 

A few other US-based RC businesses still going at it; most of them have 30+ years in the hobby.

  • Calandra Racing Concepts (Team CRC):  1/12, 1/10, and F1 pan cars located in New York
  • John's BSR Racing Tires:  1/12, 1/10 foam and capped foam tires located in Ohio
  • Castle Creations:  ESCs/motors located in Kansas City
  • JConcepts:  bodies, wheels, and tires based in Florida (much like Pro-Line/Protoform)
  • MIP:  all sorts of drivetrain and shock parts, as well as tools, in California
  • RPM:  many different molded plastic upgrade parts to improve durability, located in California
  • Robinson Racing:  pinions, spurs, slipper clutches based in California

You could probably build 90% of a custom car just sourcing items from these companies.

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I don't really care where they are made.  Though, I Don't prefer things made in China.  They might get better with time, or they might fall off the economic horse.  But I like the Taiwanese company MST. (Taiwan says it is not part of China. But China says it is, just like Tibet, I guess)  I plan on getting a CFX someday.  Who knows, I might enjoy mainland Chinese stuff someday.  I'll keep my mind open on my future preferences.  

Mr. Tamiya looks very young for his age.  Good for him. 

For all the joy he delivered, I wish him long life.  Though, I have heard of Tamiya reps being very rude to American distributors in its heyday.  Which is why I'm glad to see that the recent offerings of Airfix kits are very competitive (made in India).  Competition is good.  Without the Chinese competition, Tamiya might have just re-made the Grasshopper and called it a day.  No other re-makes.  I've been talking about portal gears before Dynahead.  Without TRX4 and MST CFX-W hitting the market, would Tamiya have made the portal gears?  Maybe not.  So... I'm all for the competition. 

If it's necessary for Tamiya to stay competitive against TRX4 and CFX-W?  I'd say make them in China or Philippines.  I rather have Tamiya that way than seeing Tamiya losing the market.  

I am grateful how the Japanese made this whole hobby more exciting.  I can't imagine my teenage years with only RC10 to play with (not that there is anything wrong with RC10).  The Grasshopper was the icon of my early teen years.  Long live the Grasshopper!!  

So yes, I prefer "made in Japan."  But, remember what Doc Brown said about "made in Japan?" 

"No wonder this piece of junk failed!  It says, 'made in japan!'"  

"What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan."  

"Unbelievable!" 

hNzJed8.jpg

Japanese stuff wasn't always good.  

Miyamoto Musashi (the most famous swordsman in Japan) was said to have cared nothing of his swords.  Musashi often bought new swords for a fight.  If it lost its edge, he'd toss it and buy a new one for the next fight.  This was very unconventional for the Japanese sword culture, which worships the swords.  Considering how much time and effort it takes to make one, and how expensive it is, it's not surprising that people treasure the swords.  It literally is a treasure even for new ones made in 2019.  

For Musashi, it was just a tool to keep him alive.  Nothing more, nothing less.  

I was restricting fun for the sake of preservability.  I like shiny and new things, so my OCD tends to keep the cars I took weeks to build away from dirt.  But the point of re-make is to have fun.  I decided to think that craving dirt is not done by me, but my collections themselves demand dirt-time.  

Like Musashi, I decided that these are mere tools, not an art.  It IS an art. I am not denying that.  I keep empty boxes in good condition because even the box is an art.  Just that I grew rather tired of the demands of the queens screaming in my mind, "use the Tamiya masking tape, otherwise, Off with your head!"  

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Ultimately, what's fun is up to each one of us. 

We do need people who know Tamiya stuff in intimate details.  That's one of the reasons why people come to TC.  I wish I had enough money to have 3 of the same; a runner, a queen, and a NIB.  That'd be the holy trinity. 

Around the time I was feeling stifled, Tamiya enforced Mandatory Advertising Price policy, which raised prices on NIB kits.  That's just as well.  I buy used stuff now.  The guilt of scratching a pristine chassis is far less if someone else did it already (and I pay less for it).  Less guilt, more fun (in my case).  

So, I prefer made in Japan, but if it's necessary to stay competitive, I forgive Tamiya.  

 

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Those (the smaller businesses cited) are good to hear 👍  Even better if they are still able to manufacture locally (though I'm unsure if they do).

I support what @Juggular said about Taiwan being "not part of", also. However, if Tamiya was completely sold to a foreign owner like some other brands were, there is a good chance it wouldn't actually be Tamiya anymore in my book.

Early Japanese RC manufacture was such an interesting, and diverse history of early ideas and designs, with no brands directly cloning the other. Each tried to come up with something new, even if ideas were copied. And the companies themselves were often run by family concerns. I miss the days when all the great Japanese RC manufacturers (and indeed, brands from other nations too) were owned and operated in their original incarnation. Though to go back that far, means the early 1990s. Still, I feel lucky to have been able to own a few of the original pieces by those companies, from before they changed or disappeared.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Hibernaculum said:

ideas and designs, with no brands directly cloning the other. Each tried to come up with something new,

I often wondered why Tamiya didn't get into helicopters, 1/8th competition buggies or sail boats (except for a couple of boats).  Tamiya didn't like to trespass Kyosho's turf?  

Marui had a wheelie jeep.  Back then, I felt it wasn't similar enough to be a "copy" of M38 (maybe because of the smaller tires).  However, looking at the chassis now, it is quite alike (but certainly not a clone).  After 80's though, Marui and Kyosho seems like they mostly left the 1/10 market to Tamiya.  And in turn, Tamiya leaves helis and 1/8th buggies to Kyosho, and airsoft guns to Marui.  

iFFdfN9.jpg

As you say, they might have a culture of shying away from direct competitions; respecting each others' family business.  

I can respect that.  You certainly don't see that in Chinese products.  There must be dozens of clones of Hobbywing 1060, and also of IMAX B6 charger.  That's not respectful.  I'd say, you give no respect, you get no respect.  Instead of trying to copy, take pride in your own thing, I'd say.  I can see that MST is doing its own thing, that's why I like MST (even though ethnically they are Chinese too). 

For good and bad, people tend to imitate others. Hopefully, Chinese mainlanders would follow suit of Taiwanese.  Talking about Taiwan, I discovered a Taiwanese pen company, TWSBI.  They design their own own unique pens. I wouldn't mind getting one. (But for $60? I always end up getting a used Tamiya. $3 Pilot Petit1--made in Japan--works fine anyway.)   

Rk4e6P9.jpg

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Futaba also has a huge plant in the Philippines. So some or many of their products are made in PH. 

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