What happened to all the unsold kits?

[junkmunki 846]

I work for a major German car manufacturer, and every so often, we have a clear out of all the obsolete and out of date parts. Anything that is over a certain age, or for a vehicle that is no longer in production is scrapped or archived. 

This got me wondering, what happened to all the earlier kits that Tamiya over produces. During a production run, they probably produce hundreds of thousands of kits for the worldwide markets, but once they got to a certain age, or were replaced by later kits, what happened to all the unsold factory stock? If a model has been superceded or is out of date by a couple of years, I can't see shops ordering them, so does Tamiya have a store room somewhere with a secret stash of rare early kits, or did they destroy them? 

I have noticed on Ebay, there are a couple of Japanese sellers who keep coming up with rare inbuilt kits that you just don't see anywhere else. Perhaps Tamiya trickle their old stock onto the market under cover.....🤔

I wonder if they would be open to the idea of a TC audit......😁

[graemevw 823]

It depends how they run their business.

I worked for a manufacturer that sold to distributors worldwide in a similar manor to the way tamiya would. Lower output but maybe not by that much. Less variety of product though.

All our output was made to orders, not just made then hopefully moved on to distributors if we could.

Our distributors would have regular orders and we would fulfil them.

I cant see many manufacturers making loads of product without an order that is to be fulfilled.

Spares maybe, i guess thats why there are alot more old spares than kits. 

[MadInventor 3884]

Tamiya often re-use old parts in the introduction of new kits, so if they get stuck with a large stock of spares, the parts just get re-used in newer models. It's one of the reasons I've stuck with them for so long is that you can usually get spares for older cars from the newer models.

[junkmunki 846]

4 minutes ago, MadInventor said:

Tamiya often re-use old parts in the introduction of new kits, so if they get stuck with a large stock of spares, the parts just get re-used in newer models. It's one of the reasons I've stuck with them for so long is that you can usually get spares for older cars from the newer models.

That would make a lot of sense when you look at some re re parts that have older dates on them. I can just imagine tamiya employing staff to rip open oder kits and cannibalise them for parts...😅

[Juggular 4964]

As mentioned, Tamiya is famous for re-using the molds. 

As far as the kits are concerned, here is my impression (which means I don't know anything. I'm just taking a shot in the dark).  

They've been doing this for a long time (fact).  They know the distributors in Japan and elsewhere in the world (fact).  Before they make kits, they send out "tester kits" to some. (this is true for scale kits. Youtubers get them like 6 months before, and build them and post the videos)  Tamiya gets how many distributors want.  And they make just enough to move 100%.  No point keeping kits when they have the mold to remake any time.  And they have tens of thousands of scale and RC kits.  RC alone, the recent number is kit #654.   

Keeping 1 kit for everything (including scale kits) would be substantial. (They do have a museum of a sort, for popular vintage stuff) 

So my "impression" is that they keep nothing but molds and plans.  Even the molds would be a mountain.  Maybe a wall of shelves. Just for common parts for research purposes.  Trying to fit this part with that new kit would be so much easier to do in person than in computer.  Also they can always put in wax in the mold to make mock parts for comparison.  Or borrow actual stuff from enthusiasts.  That'd be cheaper than keeping ALL different kits in a warehouse.  I hear real estate is expensive in Japan.  

You may see some local hobby shop with unsold kits that has been on the shelf for 20 years.  That's the problem of the owner of the hobby shop.  The bottom line is (pun intended), keeping molds means future money.  Unsold kits means negative money.  That's something Tamiya factory would try its best to avoid, I think.  

 

[Superluminal 3750]

11 minutes ago, Juggular said:

Tamiya gets how many distributors want.  And they make just enough to move 100%.

 

This probably explains what happened to the uk distribution of the avante black special rerelease at the end of last year where they seemed to be completely unprepared and failed to supply enough even for those that had pre ordered many months in advance (i ended up with a refund as new stock isnt expected to arrive until november this year)

[Juggular 4964]

It seems Tamiya avoids saying things like, "Well, Mr. Distributor, are you sure that's how many you want? We think you can sell more in the UK."  

If the UK distributor can't sell the extra kits, then it would look like Tamiya's fault for pushing it.  The distributor would want to sell the kits back, and Tamiya would have to undersell its own kits.  

But if the distributor sells out, then it's his fault.  And other sellers from German can charge more to sell the popular kits to UK.  Next time the UK distributors would always try to buy a few more.  Either way, Tamiya wins if they stay out of the distributors' decisions.  

 

[Hibernaculum 933]

On 7/24/2019 at 5:02 PM, junkmunki said:

I have noticed on Ebay, there are a couple of Japanese sellers who keep coming up with rare inbuilt kits that you just don't see anywhere else. Perhaps Tamiya trickle their old stock onto the market under cover.....🤔

That's definitely not what is happening.

On 7/24/2019 at 9:01 PM, junkmunki said:

That would make a lot of sense when you look at some re re parts that have older dates on them. I can just imagine tamiya employing staff to rip open oder kits and cannibalise them for parts...😅

That's definitely not what's happening either.

Having collected older kits (even since before eBay began), having been in contact with Tamiya on occasion, and having spoken to other collectors over many years including some who have visited Tamiya in Shizuoka... the old stock you see online on eBay and so forth, has always been old shop stock, or otherwise items owned by private sellers.

There is no leftover kit stock with Tamiya themselves. At least not for the purpose of cannibalizing the kits, or secretly trickling the old stock onto the market. They do however, have a nice display in their foyer!

The reality is that a lot (millions) of kits were sold in Japan alone even just during the "vintage" era. And there were a lot of toy and hobby stores that sold them. Some stores still to this day find lingering old examples of kits and models of all kinds, then throw them up online for sale. In other cases, Japanese owners (either collectors or just people who never got around to opening the models) list  them online. As with any collectible - the radius area closest to the factory where those items were manufactured, has a tendency to have the most surviving examples in the years that follow. The same thing happened around the Kenner factory in the USA, in relation to Star Wars collectibles.

When it comes to leftover Tamiya in other countries...

As mentioned, there is less chance to find leftover items at the international distributor level, because those companies were more concerned with shifting stock and getting rid of it ASAP. There are relatively few stories around of collectors hitting vintage gold from distributors. Though there were a few here and there who got lucky.

Hobby shops however, did tend to be places where a few old items would linger, especially parts but occasionally kits. And there are many stories of hobby shop finds, everywhere from Australia to Cyprus. I have had a number of lucky kit finds from hobby stores. But hobby shops outside Japan were always less likely to yield vintage gold than the stores in Japan. And today, both the stores inside and outside Japan now rarely contain much in the way of vintage items. As it has for years been mined and listed on eBay by probably hundreds of collectors and traders.

These days I would suggest that most vintage kits are in the hands of collectors already. With only a small trickle still being "found" either in Japan or internationally. Most of the examples being sold online these days are being sold from one collector to another.  Unlike in the early days of eBay, when most listings were still "store finds".

Some of you may remember an eBay seller called jr-rc... he was actually an Australian who lived in Japan, and made a business for himself finding and selling old stock of R/C models, parts and other things, on eBay. Business boomed for him, in particular from 2000 to 2005 or thereabouts. I was even told once, that he drove a very nice 1:1 car as a result of the success of his eBay shop.

There are few eBay sellers now, who can maintain the type of mass-listings of vintage stock, that stores like jr-rc had during the peak years - when eBay first opened up the opportunity for all that stock to be traded around the world.

cheers,

Rob.

[Hibernaculum 933]

Also, the "old dates" on "Re re" parts are often new stampings. Or to explain another way - just because a part has an old date on it like "1985" or something, actually does not mean it's even using the exact same mould and same stamping, as the original 1985 part did. Often the old moulds were reworked and modified. Sometimes they were revised entirely.

Early parts from the 80s can easily be identified because they had very simple embossed details. Times were simpler... there were less regulations. All they usually had written on them was one or all of these:

• Model name (e.g. "RCC Grasshopper"),
• year (e.g. "1984"), and
• "Made in Japan"

Modern remake editions of those parts, have new stamps consisting of:

• EU compliance material stamps with alphabetic codes, e.g. “ABS” (Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene), “PS” (Polystyrene), “PA” (Polyamide) or “PC” (Polycarbonate). These never appeared on vintage parts.
• Tamiya name, e.g. “© Tamiya”. This never appeared on vintage parts.
• Year, e.g. “© 1979”. While year did also appear on vintage parts, the use of the “©” symbol proves a part is a remake part.
• Vintage model number e.g. “58047”, PLUS product code e.g. some 7 digit number like “0984071”. Even though a vintage model number like “58047” refers to a car from the 1980s, such numbers never actually appeared on vintage parts. Likewise, product codes never appeared on vintage parts.

Have this info here also.

[markbt73 5316]

A 5-digit model number should be a dead giveaway as well, no? Didn't they retroactively add the "0" in when they hit 58100? I'm sure my old Grasshopper was 5843, not 58043...

As far as old hobby shop stock goes, here in the USA, I know that many shop owners hated having old stuff around. My usual haunt from about 1995-2004, Hub Hobby Center in Minnesota, regularly put old kits on clearance for ridiculous prices. I bought a Kyosho Nostalgic Series MGB kit that had been gathering dust for several years for $129, and a King Blackfoot for something like $75. Why? It was a small shop; they had to make room for the latest and greatest.

They also would put old parts in "grab bags" for $5 or $10. Buy the bag that has something useful in it (a nice set of Pro-Line wheels, or a Paragon pinion gear caddy), and throw out the stuff you have no use for (replacement Traxxas Cat bumper, Thundershot decal sheet, etc). None of this stuff was "vintage" then; it was just old.

[junkmunki 846]

When i was in my teens in the 1980s, i had a saturday job in a model shop in Portsmouth that specialised in rc stuff along with model railways. Above the shop there was a flat that had become the dumping ground for any old stock, second hand stuff that came in or unwanted parts. All the rooms were stuffed, and i did rummage and get some stuff occasionally, but like Markbt73 says, it was just old, so not really sought after. Some years later, i learned that when the shop and flat were refurbished, everything went into the skip.

Bearing in mind i did get a Bruiser, a Tyrrell p34 and a porsche 936 out of there, i shudder to think what got binned...

Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing...

[Hibernaculum 933]

1 hour ago, markbt73 said:

A 5-digit model number should be a dead giveaway as well, no? Didn't they retroactively add the "0" in when they hit 58100? I'm sure my old Grasshopper was 5843, not 58043...

The kit numbers were expanded from 4 digits to 5 digits sometime (I think) in the mid-late 1980s, but I would have to double check the exact timing. But it is true that the earlier kits had 4 digits (for example on the kit box)

Of course, the very earliest kits actually use the RA numbering. Tamiya's original numbering system for R/C kits was RA-1001 and onwards. This numbering system lasted as far as kit 31 aka "RA-1031" Brabham BT50 BMW Turbo.

Beyond that point, Tamiya switched to the "58" sequence using 4 digits, and later 5 digits.

1 hour ago, markbt73 said:

None of this stuff was "vintage" then; it was just old.

Yeah it's true of course... everything was just old, unwanted, out-of-date stock for many years. Nobody considered it vintage...because vintage wasn't even a term we used. And not enough years had passed for people to really think in those terms.

And those were great days too if you started collecting early.

The first time I can honestly say I went to hobby shops looking specifically for old, leftover stock related to cars from the 1980s was in 1992. I know that sounds incredibly early... why would I have even thought of it, at that stage?

Well, having grown up mostly in the 1980s, I was somehow acutely aware and/or obsessed with the R/C models of that time (and the rest is history).

I also didn't have access to a lot of the things I had wanted during those years. So I was somewhat starved for access (and money) and the ability to own some of the great toys of my childhood. As early as 1992 I visited a hobby shop about 1 hour from where I lived, with the specific intention of trying to find parts/bits/anything related to the older Tamiyas that were out of production. And I was very happy to find a large plastic container there full of boxed Sand Scorcher original tyre sets, which were "on sale".

I bought a couple of them, and also got an original Tamiya Hornet body set, which cost me AU$45.

I knew these cars (as new in box kits) were no longer available by then... and I had developed a sense of "I need to stock up on spare parts when I can afford it" because I sensed they were becoming scarce. I remember the store owner telling me that a new "Hornet" was coming out soon, called the Super Hornet.

Shortly after that, I also visited Sydney's Hobbyco hobby store - a store that has now been around for some 80 years or more. It's one of the last great hobby stores in Australia. And on that day, I remember they still had original issue sets of rear Super Champ tyres for sale on the shelf. But I remember they were about $30 or so. I didn't have a lot of money at that time, so I bought a few other small things from an "old stock" parts/sale bin they had. I was pretty pleased because back home I had begun restoring an old Hotshot (a wreck - found through a newspaper ad), and I got an original set of Hotshot front tyres in packet for $10, and some other little random little bits like Tamiya bearings and so forth. I told myself I'd go back to the store for the Super Champ tyres the next time.

That was a mistake - and something I really regretted later. Because the next time I went to Hobbyco, the Super Champ tyres were all gone. And I ended up ringing around every hobby store in the Sydney region - to no avail. Nobody had the Super Champ tyres any more. And no amount of back-ordering was able to get them either. This was in 1993.

At this point, I had to admit - I felt a bit crushed, thinking I would probably never obtain spare sets of those tyres. Little did I know that in years to come, the Internet would appear. And then eBay.

In 1994 I decided to make an attempt to see what, if any, whole new in box "1980s" era Tamiya R/C kits might still be lingering in all the hobby stores in Sydney. So I rang around every store in the phone book. And I got lucky - there was one store that had one (just one) Monster Beetle kit left. I had some money, so I swooped and purchased it.

A lot of my enthusiasm for the "old" items during this time was also being inspired by the sense that Tamiya had changed direction - releasing mostly touring cars in the early-mid 1990s. Or otherwise less interesting (less real looking) off-road vehicles, compared to the past. They just didn't do it for me, like the 1980s ones did. And combine that with the "fear of missing out"... and it meant I was inspired to start searching very early.

And so began... a lifelong obsession.

When I first got home internet access in 1996, there wasn't really even anything much on the web about Tamiya - let alone vintage Tamiya. And at first it never even occurred to me that the internet would eventually become a tool through which you could trade (safely). It was all very new and daunting at that time. If I could a website about Sting or Pink Floyd to appear on my screen, or download a 2Mb video clip, it was a revelation. Even MP3s didn't exist at first.

eBay didn't really gain much attention from the mainstream until 1998, but most people were still pretty cautious about buying anything online. So for a while I looked at eBay but thought it was still too "risky". By 1999 though, I joined, and tried my hand at sending a Western Union money order to buy something from a seller in the USA, in the hope that the eBay "feedback system" would work and that people really were honorable. To my relief, it worked. And as my confidence grew, my bank balance diminished  

What followed from there, was the stunning discovery that old Tamiya stock actually existed in the world. Not just Super Champ tyres. But whole kits. Even the earliest kits - many of which I had previously never seen before in unbuilt form. Some sellers were selling them via their websites, but most were on eBay. And everything - and I mean everything - was a bidding war. Because every listing was an auction, and there was no such thing as "buy it now".

 

[SuperChamp82 743]

Isn’t old kit numbering a bit more nuanced @Hibernaculum @markbt73 ?

Its true that RA - for RAdio controlled with the first two digits denoting scale (12 = 1/12 etc) - kits reportedly ended with the RA1031 Brabham ... although I’ve never seen anything beyond a RA1029 Blazing Blazer myself ? 

It’s also correct that RAs anchor the earlier versions of any model bearing those initials BUT - as with everything early Tamiya - there are inconsistencies. 

From memory, Tamiya first started the 58XX numbering from the Countach CS - so there are actually two types of kit number for this car ... RA1208 with early black gears / bumpers and a later 5808 with white versions of both.

The same logic then tracks through for every other model up to the Brabham. 

As an aside, I think the kit vs item model identifier change came in around 1987 - at roughly the same time as Tamiya changed its factory location on boxes from Oshika to Ondawara.

@markbt73 is then spot on re the 58XXX start point. 

No idea what happened after that - and I’ve frankly over offered nerd levels of detail already 😂

[Hibernaculum 933]

RA-12XX for the 1/12 scale kits yes, I got that wrong. 

Also wrong - the 58XX (4 digit) instances actually started after the 58XXX (5 digit) instances? ie many earliest kits never used the 4digit. I hadn’t realized that. While the 5digit carried right through.

But here is RA-1031 Brabham as mentioned, so I got that bit right at least https://tamiyabase.com/tamiya-models/58031-58031

That’s all according to what Tamiyabase has filed for each kit anyway. Presumably Lars’ info is right, as he has probably been losing sleep over the database organisation of Tamiya’s early, messy kit/parts numbering, for many years 🙃

[Mokei Kagaku 2706]

I've looked a bit into this myself and though I of course can't exclude the possibility that actual kit boxes and/or manuals didn't entirely follow these "rules", the list below shows how it is according to Tamiya catalogs and RC Guide Books.

The Cheetah is the earliest model to ever be renumbered to a 4-digit number,numbered RA1207 and 5807 in the 1983 catalog.

The Frog is the earliest to be renumbered to 5-digit number, still numbered 5841 in the 1987 catalog and 58041 in the 1988 catalog.

The Super Sabre was the last to get a 4-digit number.

From Thunder Shot onwards, only 5-digit numbers were used. 

[scoobybooster 248]

I think the whole thing is a lot easier than we all imagine: 
As some of you have already noticed, I work for a Tamiya importer. As such, we regularly receive stock lists with stock from Japan (and Philippines). You'd be surprised to see that Tamiya doesn't have an insanely large stock - so don't stock thousands of kits of every item. Rather they sell out, and after a certain amount of time and demand they produce again. Sometimes we also get special offers on kits with obvious excess stock, but this is not the big mass. 
At least that's today-how it was handled in the beginning (70's/ 80's), I don't know, of course.

[SuperChamp82 743]

Thanks @Mokei Kagaku - that’s really interesting.

I always thought it was Tamiya Group being reshuffled in 82 that prompted  the initial RA / 58XX change - with 58 being the new code for the RC Division - and the Tornado RM being the first to get the new number afresh ?

Beyond that, the 58XX would also apply to kits still in production 82+ - which (again) is interesting because your table suggests that included everything back to the Cheetah ?

The move to 58XXX was then presumably because Tamiya knew they’d soon run out of kit number headroom having just moved to the new factory ?

And it’s equally interesting that the same crossover between 58XX and 58XXX applied to kits in production 87+ ... going all the way back to the Frog.

We’ll never be able to use boxes to reliably identify contents - they’re just too easy to swap - but it’s fairly safe to assume length of production = popularity vs unloved ... and that’s precisely what @Mokei Kagaku table confirms !

If a blank means there was never crossover production run ? then the shortest release to discontinued looks to be the Supershot - which I’d never have suspected - although other blanks could be just as short in practice ?

[SuperChamp82 743]

37 minutes ago, scoobybooster said:

You'd be surprised to see that Tamiya doesn't have an insanely large stock - so don't stock thousands of kits of every item. Rather they sell out, and after a certain amount of time and demand they produce again

This rings true based on the number of times my old hobby store was out of stock in the early 80s 😂

Especially for anything more expensive or usual - both of which would have locked up Tamiya’s cash if over produced and inventory sat on shelves. 

[Mokei Kagaku 2706]

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 1:38 PM, SuperChamp82 said:

.....and the Tornado RM being the first to get the new number afresh ?

Yes.

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 1:38 PM, SuperChamp82 said:

Beyond that, the 58XX would also apply to kits still in production 82+ - which (again) is interesting because your table suggests that included everything back to the Cheetah ?

Yes, but as the 58001-58006, 58010 and 58017 were gone by then, they didn't get the 4-digit number.

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 1:38 PM, SuperChamp82 said:

The move to 58XXX was then presumably because Tamiya knew they’d soon run out of kit number headroom having just moved to the new factory ?

When I first looked into this, I thought the change to 5-digit numbers was triggered by the Military Miniatures series reaching 100 models. However, that was in 1977, and though the series had the number series 35xx to reflect that the scale was 1/35, Tamiya just soldiered on into the 36xx for years before finally changing to 35xxx. So, in principal, Tamiya could have used 59xx a long time for the RC-cars before getting in conflict with the 60xx-series, which was occupied by the 1/100 aircraft series.

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 1:38 PM, SuperChamp82 said:

If a blank means there was never crossover production run ? then the shortest release to discontinued looks to be the Supershot - which I’d never have suspected

Blank means exactly that. Everything earlier than the Frog was gone by the time the change from 4-digit to 5-digit took place. So were the Pajero, FAV, Hotshot and Supershot. And indeed, the Supershot didn't last for long. If it was available the shortest time of all Tamiya RC-cars at that time is difficult to say without checking release dates and discontinuation dates, which isn't easy. Official release dates are known, but I don't think I've ever seen Tamiya state a specific date for discontinuation. And as 58010, 58046, 58047 and 58054 were all available for about two years.

As for popularity vs. length of production, I tinnk it's difficult to conclude. Some models were popular, but replaced by a newer model (Hotshot I vs Hotshot II).

The Supershot was also popular, but extremely expensive, so though many surely would have loved to have one, it was simply financially out of reach. Also, it can be argued that it was replaced by the Bigwig and by the time of discontinuation, the whole Hotshot-series was obsolete. In fact, it was a riddle to us that Tamiya released the Super Sabre and Thunder Shot almost simultaneously. The Super Sabre on the Boomerang chassis is perfectly OK now, but at the time of the release, I think it should have been on the Thunder Shot chassis.

As for the FAV, I can’t talk for the global market, but in our market, it was really unpopular.  Too many design flaws making it unreliable and fragile, looking boring compared to the “flashy” alternatives, the impracticallity of the body integrated in the chassis, the constant “clicking-clacking” of the suspension and relatively high price for what you got. And once the Wild One was available, “nobody” wanted the FAV anymore.

Despite the high price of the Supershot, my guess is that the FAV was the slowest seller of the shortlived 58010, 58046, 58047 and 58054.

[markbt73 5316]

Huh. Interesting. I didn't know that the 4- to 5-digit changeover happened that early on. But then, I didn't have any new Tamiya kits between 1987 (Blackfoot, 5858) and 1994 (Lancia Delta Integrale, 58117). So I sort of missed the changeover years.

As far as popularity of the 4WD buggies, I know that in my neck of the woods, the Supershot and Bigwig were both completely overshadowed by the Turbo Optima and Optima Mid. The Boomerang gained some traction (get it? 4WD traction?) at the low end of the price range, and so did the Marui Ninja, but at the local track, in the 4WD class (which we all watched, but didn't participate in) it was all Kyosho all the time.

[Sickpup 10]

I remember I had a conversation with a staff member at Beatties in Holborn, would have been around 1990-1992 in regards to old parts. I was after a few bits for my Falcon, the usual broken front end bits and some Frog shocks to fit on a Lancia Rally and he did manage to get them for me in about 7 days so must have been on the usual weekly order.

The chap told me that RiKo had loads of old parts for various models but most model shops just wouldn't order them as they were no longer on published in stock parts lists, no one bothered to ask if they were available. The biggest surprise was that RiKo apparantly had hundreds of Blazing Blazer kits sat in the warehouse that they couldn't sell as they didn't want to make a loss on them. They had ordered them expecting to sell more than the Toyota as it was cheaper but people went for the Toyota as it was more advanced. Even giving some generous space for exageration I believed and still believe him.

A few years later the Tamiya spares phone line was started and this was pretty much the end for Tamiya spares availabiity. Beatties would no longer order parts for you, you were directed to call a phone number and leave a message in the hope that someone would call you back. If they did and you answered you detailed the parts you needed, they would then call you back again and tell you about availability but the ladies staffing the number didn't have access to old parts lists just the lists for the latest models.

I suspect those Blazers if they existed ended up being thrown in a skip as not selling them as kits or as parts meant they ended up with no commercial value so could be written off against tax after a few years but I live in hope that some staff member thought to take them instead of throwing them away so they will eventually appear on the market.