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ThunderDragonCy

TA06 - First touring car build and first time racing

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The yokomo YD2TC might be a good source of inspiration for the setup of your car. 

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13 hours ago, HaCo81 said:

This is an interesting topic: https://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/979508-rwd-4-wheel-independent-susp-onroad-cards-why-not-why-how-5.html

There is an interesting front brake setup from a pancar on page 4.

Also post #148 and further is about TA06. 

Need to get started with this! 

 

Thanks for the link. I went properly down the rabbit hole on that. Some interesting information, but it seems ultimately to come down to tyres. Definitely need to try stickier rear tyres. 

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Yep, the key is tires, as always. Balance front rear regarding tires as well. I used to run Mini-Z, we had a stock class and there was a raceday with very few grip. Even with bad grip, my car went pretty good, it even slid on the rear exiting corners. Pretty fun to drive! The key was the front tires, I think :-)

Also wondering about the diff. This car is a PITA to change the rear diff. But I think it has an important influence on the rear end as well, so maybe a swap to a balldiff which you can setup while it is mounted is an interesting move too.

But first I need to get started, hopefully this weekend. Remove all the AWD parts and keep RWD only. Then put the front dampers flat on the chassis, because it looks cool and puts the weight in the rear. I also want to put in a 17.5T with sensor to have good controllability. Was also wondering if it would be easy and usefull to move the servo more to the rear. Just use a longer lever, and so get more weight in the back.

Also have a boy from last season, a Nissan GT-R GT500 from Tamiya. And I have some shorty's ready as well. Only thing missing is a proper servo (for now).

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Finally found the time to start building. Removed front diff, belts and universal shafts and converted to IFS because it’s so cool! I saved all the parts of my original set.

Next filling shocks, add electronics, setup chassis and hopefully a first test this Sunday!

6197748A-7CB5-4CA9-A180-EA5B0BF90977.jpeg

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Back from hols, so got it running today

Firstly, hop ups ordered whilst away have arrived. Bearing alloy steering, reinforced J parts, lightweight idler shaft, loads of suspension blocks, reinforced gear case, alloy spacers, 46mm universals, red o rings and steel cross shafts for the diff. 

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I'm leaving the gearcase and suspension stuff for now as i want to just get it running. 

Alloy steering set installed. Needed a 0.2mm shim each side to free it up, but otherwise it's lovely. Also added the 630 bearings to replace the bushings. 

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The reinforced shock towers are waaaaay stiffer, and it came with a reinforced servo tray which also stopped the servo moving under load quite so much so double win.

46mm swing shaft universals slotted straight in. I needed to pull the urethane bumpers out of the gearbox outdrives, but there is no binding and thry are lovely and smooth. The rcmart TA06 super cheap hop up gift keeps giving! 

Fitting the Surpass Rocket V3 motor was potentially problematic. The tabs would require completely cutting the brace. I rolled it and trial fitted the pinion and found i could get the tabs on the front, but needed to remove the tabs on the tub. Used a dremel small sanding drum. 

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Motor goes in like this

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I installed the ESC as far back as possible, and for now put a deans plug in case i want to use the big square pack, but if the shorty is permanent I'll stick some 4mm plugs on. 

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Shorty is installed all the way to the rear with a foam spacer

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Ran it. Boy it's fast! Tried it on the rally blocks and it was super slidey. Put my new Sorex 28s on, much more grip! Full race. 

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Its very on the nose. I swapped the springs front to rear, so the softs were are the back, unhooked the rear anti roll bar, still very on the nose, but better. Tried reducing the rear droop, but did not seem to help much, and soft springs dropped the ride height to 4mm, so need to sort preload. Much more to do, but i think it might work. The slicks have proper grip, and with a better setup i think it could work. Going to stick the stiff front springs and roll bar on, heavier front oil to calm the turn in, maybe some 32 or 36 tyres to reduced front grip. I think this might work though! 

 

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Looking very nice!

Very on the nose: corner exit, or coming into the corner or both? Did you remove auto-braking?

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2 hours ago, HaCo81 said:

Looking very nice!

Very on the nose: corner exit, or coming into the corner or both? Did you remove auto-braking?

Generally has a lot of front end. Grip is high and turn in is super sharp. Rear grip isn't too bad, and i only have 5% drag brake and generally very soft on the brakes at the moment. It's not braking that seems to bother it from what little i have seen, it's just faster steering and more twitchy than i would like/am used to. Doing fast chicane type manoeuvres gets the rear end swinging which is probably a function of the rearward weight bias, but i didn't do much changes. I need to put the stiffer front springs and roll bars on, and the soft rear bar to help contain the weight. I also only have 3k diff oil in as well. I have 10k and 300k options in the box, so when i crack open the transmission to put the red o rings in the diff and the reinforced gearcases on i will thicken up the rear oil to induce some more understeer on turn in. I have a ball diff option if i borrow it out of the RS200, but that is still pretty wayward and has strong turn in so i don't really want to loose the ball diff out of that.

Will report back when i have more running done. 

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Trimmed the Zoo Racing Hellcat shell. Also cut too much off the front body posts. Doh! 

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Don't suppose anyone has unused part 3 off 51253 TB body posts sprue do they? 

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Just bought a set of electrons: newest SR315 receiver from Spektrum and low profile servo from Savox.

Still quite some work for this evening, but I hope I can test as well tomorrow morning.

Will have Tamiya A type with me and extra racing radials to swap for the front if required.

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Some more setup work. Hard front bar, soft rear, hard blue front springs, large preload spacer rear to bring ride height back to 5mm. Definite improvement. Raised the front roll centre by removing the spacers below the inner ball studs and it's better again. Still have to be careful on throttle, and it's not exactly easy to drive but i think it could be ok to try some track running. Street running between kerbs feels surprisingly restrictive. There isn't a lot of space to gather it up if things go wrong. Also seems very fast to me. Goodness knows what mod touring cars must be like. 

Tried finishing the shell prep. Did loads of checking, measuring and marking and still got the holes 8mm too far back. Drilled some more and the overlap a bit with the wrong ones, but i don't think i have to write off the shell just yet. Will buy some new front body posts and through some paint at it this week. 

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Here's a video of my second test past Sunday.:

I need to find a better parking lot, this one has few grip and is pretty dirty. I tested the evening on a small road next to my house, there the grip was really awesome! 

Biggest challenge really is braking, I need to set lowest braking in ESC otherwise car breaks out for sure. 

Now I'm curious about carpet behavior!

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10 hours ago, HaCo81 said:

Here's a video of my second test past Sunday.:

I need to find a better parking lot, this one has few grip and is pretty dirty. I tested the evening on a small road next to my house, there the grip was really awesome! 

Biggest challenge really is braking, I need to set lowest braking in ESC otherwise car breaks out for sure. 

Now I'm curious about carpet behavior!

That looks great. What tyres and setup are you using? I am really struggling to get mine driveable on these sorex 28s. It just spins on the throttle out of tight corners really easily. 

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3 hours ago, lowspot said:

Have you ever considered to take sponge tires? I had the same problem when I started with speed runs. The car was spinning around like crazy, every time I slowed down and in corners but handling improved a lot with sponge tires.

Something like this: http://www.walterrchobby.com.au/index.php/wheels-and-tyres/1-10th-gp-touring-car.html

 

I hadn't really considered that as i don't know much about TC tyres. I would ideally like to get it working nicely on rubber tyres because that's what are allowed at this track i want to have a go on. 

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OK, I thought you only intend to drive it on that car park. So you really consider to take part on an official race? I always wanted to do that but I have never really had the time for it.

I should go and find a club. Unfortunately, Tamiya is not so popular in Australia :-(

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On 8/14/2019 at 9:12 AM, ThunderDragonCy said:

That looks great. What tyres and setup are you using? I am really struggling to get mine driveable on these sorex 28s. It just spins on the throttle out of tight corners really easily. 

I ran used Tamiya A type slicks with green inserts, which we use in Belgian Tamiya cup. 

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Well, i have been trying to get this to stick all week, and i thought i got vaguely somewhere with it. Having painted the body i thought i would chuck in the deep end and have a go at racing at Broxtowe tonight. 

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5 mins practice and it was basically undriveable. I feared this so i had the front drivetrain built and ready to go so on went the belts, diffs and driveshafts. It was a complete pain in the ******* getting the esc leads not catch the belt where thry have to feed through. Still, got it done evenrually. 

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Unfortunately the car was incredible hard to drive all night. Spoke to some of the other guys (who were universally brilliantly kind, generous and helpful) but there didn't seem to be anything obvious wrong. It never felt keyed into the surface, was wildly oversteering for race 1, made some setup changes and got it a little better, but it kept pulling randomly under power, so i didn't have confience to pin the throttle, and the car fekt super edgy. Even turning the steering down on the Tx it just felt spikey and not very smooth or confidence. Tiny Tx inputs would hace the car veering wildly. In short, not a lot of fun. I am pretty stumped apart from getting a better steering servo maybe? Running the blue hard springs front, stiff front roll bar, soft red rear springs, no bar, 500cst oil all round, lower front roll centre, kit height rear, 2.5 deg rear toe in, zero front, 2 deg canber rear, 1 deg front, 5mm ride height, 2mm rear droop, 3mm front. Seems to me there is something fundamental wrong but i have no idea what. Any thoughts gratefully received and appreciated. 

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Yeah I’d start with a good quality servo I reckon, it’s amazing the difference they will make on a race car, even off road, let alone on road

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If you've gone back to 4WD then it might make sense to configure the car kit stock and go from there.  The car has a lot of changes incorporated into it anticipating RWD, and then it was switched to 4WD without undoing those changes.  All those differences could be adding up.

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Did a lot of puzzling with this yesterday. The pulling to the side under load turned out to be a binding/dud rear wheel bearing, so it does go vaguely straight now. I went around and reset the ride height and droop, but left the stiff front, soft rear springs. Definitely a bit better, certainly now the drivetrain is free, but still loose at the back.

I turned the dual rate down to 50% and exponential up to 100% and it much less twitchy, but still not the easiest to drive. One of the club guys suggested shortening my sticks and that helped, but it occured to me this morning that i have the option to put the ball on the servo saver in a hole closer to the servo which might also help. 

I pulled the rear diff apart, check it was free and changed the oil back to 3000cst. I had put 10000 in when i rebuilt the gearbox with the reinforced case, steel cross pins for the bevels and lightweight idler. Whilst it was apart i added a 1mm spacer under the inner camber link balls to lower the rear roll centre to gain some more grip. I also went back to 4 deg rear toe in like when i had running RWD as it had seemed fairly secure at the rear at one point. All of this was an improvement, to the point where i think i could drive and the track with some confidence now, but it still seems a little loose given that the whole setup is now massively rear biased. I am wondering if i got something on the tyres. Going to swap them front to rear today and see if that makes a difference. If it does thrn it looks like i need to buy another set already. 

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What surface are you racing on? I had no end of problems getting my TA07 and TRF102 tracking straight at the indoor track and found out after a few meets that its the surface thats the problem. Its like an indoor astroturf thing that is used for indoor football, netball and cricket and the short little fake grass things get brushed a certain way which pushes the cars around. The best way to manage it is to turn the steering expo down at out track.

The rear diff oil should help too,  i had 7000 and now have 2 diffs made up with 2000 and 3000 and they are much better and have calmed down the rear end. It used to spin easily and now doesn't. 

What are you running up front? Most run a spool but i run a gear diff with 1m oil which acts a bit like a spool. I looked at a spool and apparently you really need DCJ's too, so it would have cost about $80 for a spool vs $7 for 1m diff oil.

The steering servo and servo saver are probably worth looking at too like you say. I have trackstar d99x in my onroad cars and while the specs say they're good they aren't as precise as savox.

You know a lot more about setup than i do so i'm interested in your spring choices. I've been told to run 1 softer in the rear than the front, so hard front then medium rear or med front and soft rear. What made you go for hard front and soft rear?

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@Jonathon Gillham I am running on asphalt. Its a dedicated track so the surface is good, albeit a little bumpy. It's definitely my car not the track lookibg at the others there. Even the Iconic Tamiya class cars (TT01E and FF01) are seriously hooked up.

I have the car much better now. That duff bearing was the biggest thing, but yesterday i changed back to my original servo (a better quality one which i swapped when trying to find the tracking problem) and put the steering ball on a shorter arm setting. That combined with all the other changes seem to have got it in a more benign setup. I am running 300k oil in a front gear diff. It's the thickest i have. 

I also ran it with my heavier shorty race battery and that made the rear end much more planted, i tuned the expo on my Tx and it tracks pretty straight and it is less edgy. I think i am just not used to how incredibly sensitive on road cars are to small changes in weight and setup. Even my TRF buggies are pretty easy going with setup by comparison. This has led me to the next change which is putting spacers back under the front inner camber link balls to lower the front roll centre. This is back to kit spec. I have realised that removing such large spacers has a massive effect on handling so i want to go back to the kit setting and see. In theory lower front roll centre will give the front more grip due to more roll (which is why i removed them to raise the front roll centre when running RWD to try and push grip rearwards) but i also read that a really high front roll centre also makes the front super responsive which is what i have. I am hoping that raising it will make it less twitchy just off centre, and a little more easy going. 

As for the difference in springs and setup, it's just following what i know. I was chasing rear grip and trying to make the car less 'on the nose' so just kept adding stiffness to the front and taking it away from the rear until i was at the extremes of the options i have available. No rules of thumb involved at all, just following what i thought the car needed. It's wet today so i can't even run in the street to test setups, but it is drier later in the week. I am also going to have another go at racing this Saturday if i feel like the car is with me. 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

@Jonathon Gillham I am running on asphalt. Its a dedicated track so the surface is good, albeit a little bumpy. It's definitely my car not the track lookibg at the others there. Even the Iconic Tamiya class cars (TT01E and FF01) are seriously hooked up.

I have the car much better now. That duff bearing was the biggest thing, but yesterday i changed back to my original servo (a better quality one which i swapped when trying to find the tracking problem) and put the steering ball on a shorter arm setting. That combined with all the other changes seem to have got it in a more benign setup. I am running 300k oil in a front gear diff. It's the thickest i have. 

I also ran it with my heavier shorty race battery and that made the rear end much more planted, i tuned the expo on my Tx and it tracks pretty straight and it is less edgy. I think i am just not used to how incredibly sensitive on road cars are to small changes in weight and setup. Even my TRF buggies are pretty easy going with setup by comparison. This has led me to the next change which is putting spacers back under the front inner camber link balls to lower the front roll centre. This is back to kit spec. I have realised that removing such large spacers has a massive effect on handling so i want to go back to the kit setting and see. In theory lower front roll centre will give the front more grip due to more roll (which is why i removed them to raise the front roll centre when running RWD to try and push grip rearwards) but i also read that a really high front roll centre also makes the front super responsive which is what i have. I am hoping that raising it will make it less twitchy just off centre, and a little more easy going. 

As for the difference in springs and setup, it's just following what i know. I was chasing rear grip and trying to make the car less 'on the nose' so just kept adding stiffness to the front and taking it away from the rear until i was at the extremes of the options i have available. No rules of thumb involved at all, just following what i thought the car needed. It's wet today so i can't even run in the street to test setups, but it is drier later in the week. I am also going to have another go at racing this Saturday if i feel like the car is with me. 

 

 

I wish I had your knowledge of tuning and setup! 

Feel your pain on duff bearings, been chasing those around my sons car. I think I have that sorted, but who knows.

May as well go racing on Saturday regardless, from what you've said about the others there you will have plenty of help

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