Triggers Broom. When is a model dead?

[netsmithUK 488]

Think this has probably been thrashed around before but I had a couple of conversations at the weekend and it was quite interesting to get different point of views. The question is this, You start off with a NIB model, which you run 'aggressively' replacing broken parts as you go. You put it into storage for 15 years and then decide to restore it, which involves trawling ebay for parts and replacing all the old worn bits to make it into a shelf queen.

Is there a limit to what you can do before it becomes 'a different model' - I figure there must be the same discussion in !:1 car restoration and maybe there is a distinction in the between wether your aim is to just to own a version of that model or wether you are thinking you are restoring that specific model you had a child.

Just some thoughts to get the ball rolling....

- bodies come and go quite frequently, so I guess its not them

- chassis tubs/plates etc can get worn/brake, so maybe not them?

- motors get swapped out

- Gearbox housing? Is this the closest thing to a 1:1 engine block, ie the thing that would get the VIN number? Also generally quite tough so might survive the longest?

 

For those who don't get the Triggers broom reference...

 

[MockTurtle 239]

it becomes a new model when you've enough spares to build a new one? 

haha great vid, but good point though. if/when i get done with my terra scorcher rebuild, the only original bits it'll have on it will be gearbox internals, wheels, and suspension bits. i'll be replacing the gearbox housings. a new tub, body, tires and decals are on the way. will definitely update the electronics as well. but i think as long as it has an original nut/part i'll still consider it as the same scorcher.

...they also say the human body replaces itself in 7-15 years... so are you really the original you? 

 

[KEV THE REV 2310]

I would say as with a 1:1 car / bike etc that it is the chassis / frame that is the original car / bike , so maybe the actual chassis tub / frame of an RC is the 'original car' .

[netsmithUK 488]

If you say 'as long as has an original nut/part, then wouldn't any parts you take off and use somewhere else, also make that the same model? (a bit like cloning) ? Thought about Chassis plates etc but thought they generally are the first thing that gets replaced when you are doing a resto as they are normally scratched to bits? Not saying I'm right or your wrong, just been bouncing around ideas over the weekend.

Perhaps its something to do with the percentage or original parts still in the model? Was watching some car resto thing on tv at the weekend and they did go to great lengths to keep as much of the original stuff as possible (when it would have been easier to replace) - guess we don't really have that attitude with old models.

[Hudson 53]

I think it's a non tangible spiritual thing, even if every single part has been changed, as long as the owner believes it to be the same model, then it is.  I'm with Trigger on this one............

[MockTurtle 239]

hehe, i think what i mean is as long its got an original component on i'd personally still consider it as the same old car - even when most of if has been replaced by newer bits over the years. 

obviously it cannot be sold on ebay as a 100% vintage, that would just be wrong. 

2 minutes ago, Hudson said:

I think it's a non tangible spiritual thing, even if every single part has been changed, as long as the owner believes it to be the same model, then it is.  I'm with Trigger on this one............

yeah, something like that. like my dad's 1:1 jeep. i think every bit has been replaced - except for the chassis. it doesn't even look anything like the original anymore. but its still his "old jeep".

[Blista 1519]

I've seen some car restorations where all that was left of the original car was a frame riddled with rust.  On the other hand I've seen people refuse to fill stone chips because it would detract from the originality of the car.  I don't dabble in vintage Tamiyas just because I know I'd fall into the latter category.  If every nut and screw wasn't original, I wouldn't be happy.  I'll fit retro bodies to a new Tamiya chassis or buy a re-release instead.

[Mad Ax 9310]

I wonder if part of the distinction comes down to what you do with the parts you replaced..?

For example if you crack the chassis tub on a vintage car and replace it with a new one then I think it's still the same car.  Every other part is the same; the fact that the single largest part (except the body, which many of us consider interchangeable) is changed out doesn't make a difference.  If you throw out the broken original chassis tub then you've not created a paradox.

However if the chassis tub is still useable (for example, on a shelfer, where the crack won't be under pressure), then you could clone the original model.  Then which one is the original?  In that case I would say the "runner" is still the original as it has most of the original parts, and the shelf car - which you would have to build with new NIB parts, new used parts, or parts from your spares bin - is technically and spiritually a new car.

Now if you ran your original car for 20+ years and in that time replaced every single part on it, I would say it is still spiritually the original car.  But what would be a paradox is if you kept all the original broken parts, fixed them as best you can with glue, epoxy, plastic weld, duct tape or even cable ties, and over the years built up a second car entirely from those parts.  Which is the original?  Spiritually is must be the one that is running.  The soul of the car has stayed in the same place although parts have come and gone.  The 'new' car (paradoxically, the one with the oldest parts) will be a clone.  But perhaps the soul leaves traces of itself in parts that have passed through its host body, and perhaps when enough parts are concentrated together the soul of the car can exist in two places at once?

To be honest this only really bothers me where hop-ups are concerned.  In many cases it's possible to buy an NIB car, and replace a large number of the bigger parts with hop-ups straight away.  Even a TT01 could be built with carbon decks, turnbuckles, alloy hubs, universals, alloy hexes, and of course different wheels and tyres and body.  How many other parts would you need to build a second car out of the bits left over?  Probably the gear bag and some parts trees.  You might get away with using screws from your spares box if you've been in the hobby long enough.

It might have been possible, once upon a time, to allocate a serial number to every kit box that came out of Tamiya's factories and put that serial number in the Tamiyaclub database.  Then as users added cars, they'd add them to their factory serial number.  But over time, especially as kits went out of production, people would have built whole cars out of traded used parts and NOS parts.  Actually I've done this myself loads of times.  So there could be any number of orphaned cars with no serial numbers floating around.

I bought a used SRB chassis, gearbox and suspension from you @netsmithUK at the 2012 Tamiyaclub meet (the one where I got the grey T-shirt that most definitely does exist, the one which I'm serendipitously wearing right now).  This once belonged to a Sand Scorcher or a Rough Rider, probably one that came from Japan in a kit box and probably one that had a serial number, at least before it left its original Tamiya packing create before being put on display or on the stock shelves of a hobby shop somewhere probably in our little island country.  But how I could tell that from the small collection of parts that I took home from an agricultural shed three decades later?  I can tell very little about it, I can't know for sure whether to put it under Rough Rider or Sand Scorcher or Ford Ranger in the showroom listings.  (Maybe some smart person can tell me if it's possible to know just from the front or rear suspension, the gearbox, or the roll cage).  I don't even know how long the parts sat dormant and if there is any soul left in them.  I can guess there probably was, but it was dead long enough that it wanted to stay that way, because every effort to race it has resulted in frustration and broken parts.  Maybe it was enjoying being dead, and didn't want to be resurrected.  Maybe doing so is a form of torture, but we're just not aware of that, because we exist on a different plane.

Or maybe I've just been eating too much chocolate, or am trying too hard to grasp at the metaphysical because the mundane is just too, well, mundane...

[rc-martin 218]

I have my original Wild One from 1986 and whenever anything broke on it I replaced it and kept the old parts in its box, when I restored it about 15 years ago I realised that if I bought a few more parts I would have enough to build a second car. There was a thread years ago about Junkyard dogs built out of spare parts.

So now I have 2 Wild Ones, both of them have original parts on them, one as it looked when it was fresh built and one as it looked a few years later all battered.

 

https://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?cid=91629&sid=130

 

https://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.asp?cid=1052&id=130

[Wooders28 4722]

Mixed views on this, we don't have serial numbers (as such) on our cars, not like 1:1 were you have 'numbers matching' , so as such, if someone was to sell a vintage boomerang, but had had a replacement 540 motor, with a same age etc replacement motor, replacement msc etc, I'd still class it as a vintage boomerang.

If you had a vintage hornet, added a shapeways double wishbone front end, is it still vintage?

One thing I could do, is change anything on one of my personal vintage cars (if I ever get them back,  my Ultima is seemingly in the guy I sold it to's loft, and when he gets a chance....😬), each part of that car I just can't change, and would maybe, be one of my only ever , shelf queens.

[Pablo68 1049]

My Hornet is a great example of this. It's a real life ship of Theseus.
Maybe one of two components on it are from that Hornet kit that I bought off the shelf back in 1987, I couldn't tell you which ones though.

[max69vk 708]

I think the nearest thing we have to vin numbers on RC are the original moulded info on the body & chassis tub (RCC xxxxx) etc, & other than a couple of materials that were changed to alternatives on newer models there really is no other way to differentiate original to replaced parts, or rere vehicles.

Pretty much the same with vintage 1:1 vehicles, you wouldn't expect a perfect leather interior on a 50+ year old car, yet there's plenty of them about still in immaculate condition & nobody bats an eyelid. Maybe it should just be accepted that parts will wear, break, & will in turn need to be replaced at some point on any model whether it be 10 days after it was built, or 10 years - As long as the original essence of the car is still there, enjoy it

[netsmithUK 488]

In some ways I'm more interested in tracking the history of the beat up runners I find and buy, as opposed to the 'completeness' of models I've built.  Some of them look like they've been around the block with owners a few times...

[markbt73 5315]

6 hours ago, Pablo68 said:

My Hornet is a great example of this. It's a real life ship of Theseus.
Maybe one of two components on it are from that Hornet kit that I bought off the shelf back in 1987, I couldn't tell you which ones though.

I have an RC10 that I call "Granddad's Axe" for much the same reason. I'm pretty sure the rear bulkhead and shock tower are from my first RC10 (bought secondhand in 1994) but I'm not sure. Oddly, in a few cases, I robbed "nice" parts off this car to finish up other builds, and replaced them with functional-but-ugly parts. It's gotten scruffier the more parts have been replaced. So it's part Ship of Theseus, and part Picture of Dorian Gray...

[KEV THE REV 2310]

2 hours ago, netsmithUK said:

Some of them look like they've been around the block with owners a few times...

Some of the owners look like that too

[junkmunki 846]

In essence, it will always be the same model, you replace parts as you run and repair it, but it is still your model, so it never really dies. 😊

[Wooders28 4722]

On 8/5/2019 at 7:06 PM, netsmithUK said:

In some ways I'm more interested in tracking the history of the beat up runners I find and buy,

When I (now regrettably) sold my Mid custom, the guy phoned me back (in the  'loot' days, when giving your phone number was the norm), and asked why there was a drilled tooth brush in the box??

I'd broken the shock tower at a race meet, didn't have a spare, but had a hand drill and a tooth brush to brace it up to get me through the final 🤷‍♂️😁

[StrokerBoy 772]

On 8/5/2019 at 9:32 AM, netsmithUK said:

- Gearbox housing? Is this the closest thing to a 1:1 engine block, ie the thing that would get the VIN number?

In a 1:1 vehicle, the identity goes with the chassis/frame.  The engine is just another subassembly that's bolted to it.  You can swap the engine every day if you want, you update the engine number in the logbook but the core vehicle remains as is, with the original VIN/registration.  (This is the UK I'm talking about, might be different in other countries).  I have a few Japanese-import motorbikes that don't even have a stamped engine number, just the model prefix.

So my vote goes with the chassis/tub - once you swap that, it's a new car.