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Greenhorny

What model to start

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There is a lot of emotional links to models here as well as good advice

from my POV, no tamiya car is reliable.

they aren’t designed like the traxxas cars that can jump building but it’s not about that with tamiya.

personally I enjoy the drive of the TT-02b but love watching the beetle drive around (if that makes sense)

JJ

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My votes would be either for a Sand Viper or a Frog.  ;)

 

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A never ending story

I've some problem with giving up Tamiya despite the mentioned issues. So I talked to a local dealer. He said, he could (highly) recommend the Dark Impact, because it was designed as a boogy from the scratch. The kid also includes the good ball bearings from beginning such as other more solid (Alu-) Parts. We also talked about a brushless motor and he said, it would be a good idea anyway to supply the model with it from the beginning. He has a Team Orion Combo Neon 19 with controller in his shop that he recommends. And he also recommends the 2750kv or 3280kv (and not the 4100kv = to strong for wild drive ) version and says, the model out of the box can handle both versions without an upgrade of the Dark Impact.

So what do you think about this model?

What do you think about the Motor? In case I choose a brushless: isn't the 3280kv to strong with no upgrades, and on the other hand, is the 2750kv to weak to make a real difference?

And finally the servo. I read, it should be strong because it could break otherwise. What servo could you recommend?

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49 minutes ago, Greenhorny said:

So what do you think about this model?

A bit of an odd one this. On paper the Dark Impact's DF-03 chassis looks great, with plenty of adjustments, oil shocks, bearings, etc. However it too has flaws, and unlike many of the other options discussed, they are very hard to fix. 

The drivetrain uses a mixture of plastic and alloy gears, and contrary to what one might expect, the soft alloy is said to wear out fast. Some people have been lucky enough to find hardened replacements, which are now extremely rare. Others with lathes have managed to repurpose helicopter gears to fit by machining them. Some just buy spares when they wear out. 

Which takes us to the second issue. This was never a hugely popular model and it has very few parts in common with others, so while spares are certainly not impossible to find, they are rarer than those for more popular kits or ones that share parts, and are only going to become harder to find with time. 

Then there is the chassis design itself. It is small and narrow, which makes fitting bulkier brushless speed controllers a challenge, and makes cooling a potential problem. It is also quite weak behind the front bulkhead, so the whole front end can break off in a crash or hard landing.

Others may disagree, but I'd argue that you would be better off with a DF-01 or DF-02.

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As for the servo, there are models that benefit from a high-end servo from the outset, for example heavier crawlers and monster trucks that can strip standard servos easily, or high-end race models where you want as much speed and precision as possible.

However for a 1/10 scale fun buggy, I suspect that your model shop is simply trying to take more of your money by steering you towards a high-end servo. I have have buggies in my fleet that have very basic plastic geared servos fitted and have been running happily for years with absolutely no problems.

The Alturn AAS700 is a relatively basic servo that has some nice features, for example it is waterproof and has a ball raced output, but it is inexpensive and has plastic gears. It is quite adequate for the vast majority of Tamiya hobby level vehicles including the buggies under discussion here.

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The DF-03 is a nice buguy, but not a great leisurely basher. That's why I have not mentioned it earlier.

Not a fan of the ball diffs in the DF-03 for this purpose - not really a ball diff fan in general. It's a great buggy for normal track use, but definitely not much of a basher in my view. I think the DF-02 is better suited with traditional diffs etc. Also, there's not as many upgrades for the DF-03 when or if things needs to be beefed up. The DF-02 was also designed as a buggy from the start, so that's no different. I also believe those come with ball bearings. Note that ball bearing kits are fairly cheap and Tamiya bearings aren't exactly the best, so don't let included bearings be the reason to choose something.

The Orion combo is just a rebranded Hobbywing setup, and it's not sensored. A bit pricey for what you get. You can get same and more for less that will run sensored. You can get a Hobbywing Quicrun 10BL120 and a Hobbywing Quicrun 3650 3600kv 10.5T motor for less, and it will run stronger and just as reliable.

But I highly advise you to stay away from anything with ball diffs for fun runs and bashing.

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Another cheap good servo is this.

Fast, reliable and cheap. I use it both as steering servos in 1:10 stuff as well as throttle/brake in nitro. It will handle what you can throw at it.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/trackstar-ts-d99x-digital-1-10-scale-touring-drift-buggy-steering-servo-10kg-0-08sec-45g.html

But generally, I agree with Turnip. The DF-03 is not what you want. I think the DF-02 is really well balanced out of the box and there's a bunch of upgrades for it. I think the DF-02 models are among the really nice looking bodies as well.

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1 hour ago, TurnipJF said:

Others may disagree, but I'd argue that you would be better off with a DF-01 or DF-02.

I like the DF03, but starting out fresh without much prior RC experience, I agree the DF01 (Manta Ray) or DF02 is a safer purchase if you want 4wd. Just out of curiosity to those recommending the DF02, is it still available? Most US sources show it discontinued and seem to be replacing it with the newer TT02B variants.

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Dark Impact cannot take as much beating as Traxxas (no Tamiya buggy could),

but it can take some structural beating.  

2750 x 7.4v = 20350 RPM.  Subtract 10% under load = 18315 RPM

3280 x 7.4v = 24272 RPM.  Subtract 10% under load = 21844 RPM

<---In comparison--->  

Stock Silver can = 14000 RPM (?)  Subtract 30% under load = 9800 RPM

Sport Tuned motor = 18300 RPM.  Subtract 30% under load = 12810 RPM

 

Dark Impact would be perfectly fine with a soft upgrade like Sport Tuned.  I would guess it might be okay with 2750kv?  No matter which motor you use, I would use teflon grease on that gear.  

I agree with @DK308 that ball diffs and strong motors don't work well together.  If you are sliding down a slop, you don't want a basketball in your hands.  You want something like a pick-axe.  

WMqrGCU.jpg

In RC, too, you don't want balls, you want something with teeth (gears).   Ball diffs allow adjustability for on-road cars and light 2WD buggies.  But not ideal for a heavy bashing with a torquey motor.  I'm biased toward DF02 or DF01 myself, if you are going to use a 3300kv motor.  

The gear on the main shaft is the problem, I think @Wooders28 put on a steel gear? 

I think he had a fairly strong brushless motor like 3900kv?  I don't remember how strong it was.  

JuEs7WB.jpg

 

As mentioned, if you want a mild upgrade like Sport Tuned, Dark Impact should be perfectly fine.  If that's your dream buggy, don't let us stop you. 

 

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Dark impact (df-03) suits best around 19t or even Tamiya superstock, lovely quiet and smooth tarmac running.

However go brushless and you get ball diff issues

Jump and you run the risk of easily breaking the front shock tower and other parts

Go off road and the underside battery door gets gummed up and annoying to clean all the time.

It's a buggy that's interesting to experience if you have other runners but I could never recommend it as a first buggy or for anyone only being able to afford just one rc car.

I'd say upon release in 2007ish(?) It was a popular buggy, I remember it took about a year for decent spares etc to trickle through for purchase but then it faded when early adopters found its flaws too frustrating.

Because quite a few buggies now have been in production for years it's interesting to see little peaks of interest happening again and again !

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2 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Just out of curiosity to those recommending the DF02, is it still available? Most US sources show it discontinued and seem to be replacing it with the newer TT02B variants.

True. it might be difficult to find one in the US.

That leaves the DF-01 and TT02B. I have zero proper experience with the DF-01, so I don't feel comfortable recommending that.

I'll stick to my guns on this. A TT02B with a few hopups and the power train I suggested, would be a great ride. And this thing about it being designed as a buggy from the start? B.S! If anything, the TT02B works better as a buggy than it does as a onroad car. For that, I'd take an XV.01 any day of the week. The TT02B is a very well balanced buggy.

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12 hours ago, Juggular said:

The gear on the main shaft is the problem, I think @Wooders28 put on a steel gear? 

I did a thread on swapping the main shaft gear, but the gear I used doesn't look to be available now, but someone on Facebook has got a company to make them.

 

12 hours ago, Juggular said:

I think he had a fairly strong brushless motor like 3900kv?  I don't remember how strong it was.

Close!

Started with a 5700kv on 3s lipo, and now on 7700kv on 3s lipo...😁

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O.k., for a first model to build and have, for me the Dark Impact is off the list.

20 hours ago, TurnipJF said:

Others may disagree, but I'd argue that you would be better off with a DF-01 or DF-02.

 

18 hours ago, Saito2 said:

I agree the DF01 (Manta Ray) or DF02 is a safer purchase if you want 4wd

 

19 hours ago, DK308 said:

I think the DF-02 is better

As many of you recommend a DF-01 or a DF-02 I'll stick to them. The Manta Ray was alongside the Sand Viper on my short list anyway, though the Sand Viper is crossed of, as it is a DT02.

18 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Just out of curiosity to those recommending the DF02, is it still available? Most US sources show it discontinued and seem to be replacing it with the newer TT02B variants.

And it's the same in Europe. I found only two offers in the internet (one from Switzerland, the other from Germany), both for a Rising Storm.

What are your experiences with those two Models resp. what are the differences? and: Your recommended upgrades for the Manta Ray were ball bearings and steel pinion as well as the propshaft and motor mount set from Tamiya. Would the Rising Storm need a bigger Upgrade to start with as the Manta Ray?

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The DF-01 Manta Ray and DF-02 Rising Storm are are both great choices.

The Rising Storm comes with a steel pinion, but like the Manta Ray it also benefits from an upgraded prop shaft and a set of bearings. 

The plastic motor mount on the Rising Storm is more sturdy than the one on the Manta Ray, so doesn't need upgrading out of the box. However should you want upgrade further down the line, it uses the same motor mount as the TT-01, and you have many choices available.

So in answer to your question, no, the Rising Storm would need fewer upgrades out of the box than the Manta Ray.

(Although given that the upgrades in question are only a motor mount and steel pinion, don't let this impact your decision too much. Either car would be an excellent starting point.)

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As for the differences, the Manta Ray is an older design from when tracks were a lot rougher than they are now, so it has longer shocks, more ground clearance and is better on rough ground. However while the Rising Storm has less ground clearance, it consequently also has a lower centre of gravity and is therefore more stable cornering at speed.

The Manta Ray has a ball diff at the back and a gear diff at the front. The Rising Storm has gear diffs at both ends. This means that the Manta Ray is a little bit more difficult to build and maintain, but also has a bit more adjustability. (If you don't like the ball diff, you can easily swap it for a gear diff by removing just four screws.)

There are other differences, but nothing that significantly affects running with the stock motor or one of not too wildly upgraded power. You can download both manuals from Tamiya's website and compare them if you like.

 

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3 hours ago, TurnipJF said:

The Manta Ray has a ball diff at the back and a gear diff at the front. The Rising Storm has gear diffs at both ends. This means that the Manta Ray is a little bit more difficult to build and maintain, but also has a bit more adjustability. (If you don't like the ball diff, you can easily swap it for a gear diff by removing just four screws.

Not to nit-pick, but I'm 99% certain the Manta Ray has gear diffs front and rear. Other vehicles on the similar TA platform like the S10 and Prerunner have a rear ball diff however.

https://www.tamiyaclub.com/picManualBig.asp?f=mantaray_manual_03

If I was building a basic Manta Ray for reliable driving, I'd get the aforementioned steel pinion, motor mount/driveshaft upgrade, bearings and the all-plastic gearset. I can't comment on the DF02 although others won't steer you wrong. 

 

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1 hour ago, Saito2 said:

Not to nit-pick, but I'm 99% certain the Manta Ray has gear diffs front and rear. Other vehicles on the similar TA platform like the S10 and Prerunner have a rear ball diff however.

You had me doubting myself there for a minute! My original Manta Ray came with a rear ball diff, but  they appear to have replaced the rear ball diff with a gear diff on the re-release. They have also changed the spec of the screws that secure the equipment deck to the tub.

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@TurnipJF

Just checked the original manual, first steps say to make two gear diffs.

So no ball diffs for manta ray I'm afraid

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What was interesting was the original rere in 2005 still contained plastic ended driveshafts but the latest rerere manta ray had the improved all metal thundershot drive shafts!

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Okay, I believe you! The one that came with mine must have been an upgrade then.

 

As for the OP's question, this would be a good thing, as it would mean that the Manta Ray and Rising Storm would be equally easy to build and adjust in terms of differentials.

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Maybe sounds funny but my vote would be the Comical Grasshopper/Hornet...

Dont cost much, easy build, goes on and off road, has good ground clearence, has nice CVA shocks, bulletproof gearbox, big wheels.

And if the Bigsquid guys say its bulletproof and undestructable thats something.... 

With some nice paint job and decals it can be made look agressive rather than silly...

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Grasshopper and Hornet may be nice, but are RWD and I go for 4WD.

But anyway:

Manta Ray; it's sold out and isn't produced anymore. I checked it out and I could only find 2 or 3 shops (in Switzerland, Austria and Germany), that have one left to sell.

One of the shops told me, if I liked the Manta Ray, they could recommended also the Top Force. I looked at it and it seems to be a nice one, but: it has ball diffs and you guys "advised highly" to stay away from this.

 

 

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