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Saito2

Candid discussion about Tamiya #1

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I'm probably going to get hate for this, but I hope some intelligent, useful discourse comes from this so here it goes. I've seen many folks over the years discuss which Tamiya model they should buy on this forum, particularly first time buyers (including one discussion going on now).  The cold truth, as I've already admitted, is that some of the vast number of models that Tamiya offers are flat out flawed out of the box. This is a black, white AND gray situation. 

In the black corner, we have something like the Juggernaut 1. I'm not aware of anyone who had a grand old time out-of-the-box with this model. It was a defective model that should not have seen the market. When Tamiya themselves offers a "fix", you know it must be bad.

In the white corner, we have something like the Hornet. Its pretty bulletproof. You can put many many "miles" or "kilometers" on a Hornet and get trouble-free use.

Then,  there's the gray corner. Where does it start and end? Some may opine the Lunch Box is flawed because the body mounts break easily when rolled over. I feel that roll overs and crashes are damage and not part of the normal, desired off-road experience (unless you enjoy inflicting destruction on your vehicles, then go get a Traxxas), so to me, the Lunch Box is pretty flawless. The Blackfoot re-re on the other, hand suffers driveline issues shortly from normal use. To me, its flawed. Others may disagree. 

Where do we put cars like the DF03 and DF01 that have an alloy gear in the driveline that could lead to a gearbox full of gray aluminum grinding paste? The DF01 is easily fixed, the DF03, not so much. Are they flawed? The Hot Shot series is pretty tough in my experience while the Thundershot is prone to A5 breakage in collisions. I'm not sure I'd call the Thundershot flawed though. See? A gray area.

I guess part of it is down to driving and treatment of the model. Anything can break if driven with disregard. On the other hand, where does a model cross from flawless to flawed to just failure prone? It would be nice to arrive at some fairly agreed upon list of cars that fit into the black, white and gray categories, so-to-speak. I think it could be a useful reference to newcomers rather than the lot of us giving out ideas and then debating durability issues within that thread, further confusing the original poster. Please don't stone me. I may have another candid discussion in the works.

 

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No hate from me, people are entitled to their opinion’s, no one is handcuffed to a thread and made read it. if you like what you’re reading join in. If you don’t it’s like a TV, don’t like it turn it off, simple. 

Most massed produced things are flawed in some way or another from the start.  Take Ladies stockings for example. They can be made so they don’t ladder, but that won’t happen because then you wouldn’t buy anymore. Not good for an ongoing business. 

So a majority of the time stuff comes out the factory 90-95% right so not enough to deter you, keeps the initial cost down with room for a bit more down the track. 

Tamiya are usually around the cheapest for basic get you going kits and probably expected to end up in pile of pieces again from a terminal impact anyway.

Traxxas for the most part are more expensive so you would hope they are better. 

P.S my re-re Blackfoot hasn’t given any problems (yet) so I feel I’ve still had my money’s worth. And if something does break, it will still look good collecting dust on the shelf 😉

 

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I think it's a matter of x-factor. For a lot of us, it's partly because we grew up on Tamiya. There are definitely some models now that are so flawed, that I won't touch them with a red hot poker - some are the ones you've listed. This is in part as a bit of a protest. I think it's ridiculous what Tamiya re-releases a very popular model, but don't take the time to fix inherent flaws, as is the case with the Blackfoot and Monster Beetle. To me, these two are especially bad cases, because back in 1992, they debuted the Bush Devil and Super Blackfoot. Those had some truly updated transmissions with metal gears inside and no drive line issues. Suspension worked better as well. Yes, the rig would look slightly different with upright rear shocks, but it would be a drivable and fun rc to have. I think this is a problem.

There are other models that simply are a result of their age and technology. A great case is the Lunchbox. I own one, and won't part with it. But it is also fair to say that it is out less than 5 times a year. it is terrible to drive, but it is part of my rc maturing. I did not get one as a kid, I got a Bush Devil instead, but I always liked it, so bought one two years ago. Will I recommend it? Never! Not in a million years! Yes, maybe for a 4 year old, but I can't hand on heart not advise anyone who's new to this game to buy that, as it will most likely turn them off - it is that bad to drive. I have a bit of the same issue with the Hornet and Grasshopper. Yes they are pretty bulletproof with mild power, but when a newcomer see what other brands offer performance wise, I think they are not that great to recommend. All in all I think it's important to recommend stuff that will keep people interested. This is also why I'm quite quick to say go brushless if the question of speed comes up. In the current discussion, it was mentioned early on. In that situation, I'm of the opinion that speed will be part of what will keep the interest. We can argue and discuss what is too fast etc. but what does it matter? We have 8 year olds buying Arrma Tallions. It's not like the world is littered with huge RC related injuries. Do i think a Tallion is a good choice for young kids? No, I think it's stupid and irresponsible. But teens and adults that get into this hobby, may crash their 50-60 kph TT02B, and? Fix it and crash it again. It will most likely not be a weapon. This is why I think it's worth advising how to make ti fun but manageable, but also on the limit. Does this make Tamiya a bad choice? Not at all. Parts are cheap and easy to come by. It just important to also know the limits of the kit. No reason to tell someone who's interested in a somewhat fast rc that a 25 kph car will be fun and fine, because that's often not the case. As a kid, I experienced this more than a few times. Went to the store, the guy beind the counter did his best to advise me. No ill intentions, but he just had a perceived idea about what was best for me, rather than listen. So when someone comes here and say, I want a Tamiya, and I want it to do this or that, it is ofent possible to achieve this. So best thing is to listen and make it happen- As long as one keeps an open mind and look at it objectively, it is easy to see that there are flaws, but also loads of possibilities.

I think Tamiya has shown great potential with the TT02B. The main issue is that it was born as an onroad car meant for a stock 540. For that, the driveline will work for a few seasons - no prob. But when Tamiya chose to do a buggy, they should have rethought the driveline. Luckily, there's a good upgrade now, so in my world, getting a TT02B along with steel diff ring and pinion, is just how things are. It does not bother me, as the TT02B is cheap.

My biggest gripe with Tamiya are the screws. I'm not aware of anything but my TRF models that use hex scews rather than those ooooold JIS screws. These are ridiculous, and this is in tune with the fact that Tamiya don't give a **** about the Monster Beetle or Blackfoot issues.

All in all I think it has to do with what to expect. Tamiya is an odd blend of toy grade and hobby grade. Some of the designs are also very telling about this. This is in part why I had a time in my youth where Kyosho, Graupner and Robbe was my go to brands. Part from a few models, there's no denying that a lot of Tamiya rc's look like children's toys. Looking at rigs like Dragon Saint or the Lunchbox etc. it does not become more clear. Is this a flaw? No, It's just part of Tamiya. I am bummed that they do not do any more TRF offroaders, as I think it was great to have a brand that has sentimental value, also do the rigs I want to track. This is why I love my TRF503.

At the end of the day, i think it's good if we stay critical and show Tamiya when they step out of line. An example is when they do a re-release that is not fixed, simply say "Scew you, I won't buy it". The saving grace of it all is the fact that Tamiya has not pumped prices in an insane way. As long as a TT02B is as cheap as it is, I can deal with the fact that it need a few things to be right. In case of the Monster Beetle and Blackfoot, I think they need to remove that crap and go back to the drawing board and bring back the Super Blackfoot/Bush Devil rear end.

Lastly, remember no brand has all winners. All have flawed models and all have a grey area, and all have winners - part from Traxxas perhaps...

but generally, I think Tamiya, Kyosho, and many others do a lot of good for our hobby. If we want to blame anybody for anything, it's the lack of kits rather than RTR models. This is still the strongest selling point for Tamiya. There are some RTR models out there I would be all over if they were kits and I could choose my own electronics and wheels etc. But seeing that they are not kits and building is a big part of the experience, I don't care. I mention this because it can be argued that on the kit front, Tamiya needs competition. I suppose this is in part why some things don't change with the re-re's and Tamiya can be said to need a bit of a kick in the *** to refresh itself at this point.

So do I think Tamiya has it all wrong? No. I think they do a lot of good and are part of what keeps the hobby alive.

Just my 02,,,, eh 200 bucks I suppose:)

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3 hours ago, DK308 said:

My biggest gripe with Tamiya are the screws

This needs to be yelled from the rooftops. I love tamiya, except for those.

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I think many first time buyers also have unrealistic expectations.  I've seen a lot that want one car that can do everything, others want to spend more money on cosmetic aluminium parts than the kit, and many don't have the budget for their goals.  There's only so much guidance you can give.

On the other hand, I've been trying to formulate a polite and reasonable way to describe the current Tamiya offroad line-up but I can't.  It sucks.  There, I said it.  For my needs, there is simply nothing I want to buy.  I might get a DT03 just to have something but I don't think I'll bother to be honest.  They need new kits above the entry-level TT02B and DT03 models.

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I'm probably the wrong person to be answering this topic... I absolutely love my "slow," "unreliable" MGB, and my favorite car that my parents had when I was a kid was a Fiat 128. Dream car? Lotus Turbo Esprit. Or Citroen SM. Clearly, I'm biased when it comes to "flawed" vehicles.

Or maybe I'm the right person... because I understand that these vehicles are great not despite their flaws, but to some degree because of them. And I think that applies to Tamiya's lineup as well. To take the Blackfoot/Monster Beetle gearbox as an example: yes, the King/Super/Bush Devil rear end is more durable. But it's also just like any other monster truck on the market. And if you take away those great big trailing arms and laydown shocks, the back of the truck doesn't squat down in the same way when you hit the throttle. And you don't see those two aluminum plates edge-on in the back, and that view is part of the Blackfoot experience, and has been for 32 years. Basically, if you "fix" the "flaws" in the rear end, it isn't the same truck any more. (And from what I've heard, if they had just left well enough alone with the hex-ended halfshafts, the re-re would have been a lot better off.)

I'm also the wrong person to ask because I don't see the point in anything beyond basic RS540 power. Speed gets old; you need bigger and smoother and more isolated places to do it the faster you want to go, and the difference in feel between an RC car going 40 mph and one going 50 mph is meaningless; both are just a blur going by. So I can't fault Tamiya vehicles for being "slow," either. It's a model car; if you want it to be exciting, do exciting things with it. If you want to dump huge amouts of horsepower into it , that horsepower is available, and cheaper and easier than ever. But it isn't necessary in order to enjoy the car, if you just put a little thought into how and where you drive it.

Also, you have to remember that Tamiya is not an RC car company. They are a model company who have an RC car division. And this is where I can find a little fault with them; their model kits are absolutely state-of-the-art and beautifully made, even the inexpensive ones. It bothers me seeing that kind of attention to detail in a 1/35 scale military miniature, but a coarsely-made Lexan blob of a body shell for a car like a 2CV or Land Rover. Their RC subject matter deserves better treatment from their model-makers. I'd be a lot happier with them if they put out one or two models a year, but they were all SRB- or Bruiser- level scale accuracy and sophistication. I don't care at all about the TT whatever or DT this or that. The new CC02 chassis shows promise, but enough with the Lexan. Let's see a return to "models suitable for radio control."

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As I stated in that thread regarding a recommendation for a first time Tamiya purchase, a few of these Tamiya models are unwise as a first and only purchase because of the flaws they may have.

When I have encouraged friends/family to get a Tamiya as their first car it's always been so far a dt-02

Easy to build, 2wd is less complicated, stable driving and durable and after all this they decide it's not for them then I have offered to buy it off them, next model if finances are really tight is the rising fighter because it's the best and simplest type of that model compared with hornet etc.... It enables people to overcome the initial building fear and understand the basics...

Regarding Tamiya production practices..... I actually prefer Tamiya jis screws! I have invested totally in the Tamiya way over the years and enjoy using Tamiya screws, Tamiya grease, Tamiya threadlock, Tamiya paint, Tamiya tools to build and repair my tamiyas...working my way slowly over the years to invest in Tamiya equipment helps me to continue to be invested and interested in Tamiya (they got me!)

They could do better making a larger range of steel pinions and making certain parts available for longer as special orders etc (like sticker sets) to keep us going but if they were perfect there would be less forum debates!

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7 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Where do we put cars like the DF03 and DF01 that have an alloy gear in the driveline that could lead to a gearbox full of gray aluminum grinding paste? The DF01 is easily fixed, the DF03, not so much. Are they flawed? The Hot Shot series is pretty tough in my experience while the Thundershot is prone to A5 breakage in collisions. I'm not sure I'd call the Thundershot flawed though. See? A gray area.

I guess part of it is down to driving and treatment of the model. Anything can break if driven with disregard. On the other hand, where does a model cross from flawless to flawed to just failure prone? It would be nice to arrive at some fairly agreed upon list of cars that fit into the black, white and gray categories, so-to-speak. I think it could be a useful reference to newcomers rather than the lot of us giving out ideas and then debating durability issues within that thread, further confusing the original poster. Please don't stone me. I may have another candid discussion in the works.

It's managing expectations, tamiyas in a general sense are not designed for jumps larger than a kerb edge, a couple of inches, if you drive them as Tamiya videos advise there should be minimal issues!?

When you have more money, it's easier to start pushing the cars boundaries with brushless etc to see what you can get away with. 

Which cycles back around to expectations again, I wouldn't necessarily say the monster beetle orv is terrible be wise the gearbox fails with brushless in because that is portraying an unfair bais against that tamiya model.

I would more likely say stick to a sport tuned motor to minimise issues be wise of the old design etc....

As a Tamiya fan and one who's has experience with quite a few different models over the years I try to portray a fair view rather than bashing Tamiya because 'latest model' etc isn't as good as an Arrma, Traxxas etc

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3 hours ago, markbt73 said:

And if you take away those great big trailing arms and laydown shocks, the back of the truck doesn't squat down in the same way when you hit the throttle. And you don't see those two aluminum plates edge-on in the back, and that view is part of the Blackfoot experience, and has been for 32 years. Basically, if you "fix" the "flaws" in the rear end, it isn't the same truck any more. (And from what I've heard, if they had just left well enough alone with the hex-ended halfshafts, the re-re would have been a lot better off.)

Completely agree with all this. I just feel its unacceptable for a model to begin failing under stock power in a short time after purchase like many of the re-re BF and MB we've been hearing about. It sours the experience for a newcomer or returning hobbyist. Make those side plates out of heavier gauge metal this time around to prevent diff separation. Keep the hex halfshafts or minimally re-re Frog dogbones in the rear.  Its not 100% failure rate like the Juggernaut 1, but it seems high from what we've read.

3 hours ago, markbt73 said:

I'm also the wrong person to ask because I don't see the point in anything beyond basic RS540 power.

 

3 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Also, you have to remember that Tamiya is not an RC car company. They are a model company who have an RC car division.

The first statement is true and folks have to keep in mind the last statement. Tamiya doesn't just do RC like Traxxas. 540 power is generally enough for these re-res and vintage models. Remember the Technigold was a pretty potent motor for these cars.

 

3 hours ago, markbt73 said:

And this is where I can find a little fault with them; their model kits are absolutely state-of-the-art and beautifully made, even the inexpensive ones. It bothers me seeing that kind of attention to detail in a 1/35 scale military miniature, but a coarsely-made Lexan blob of a body shell for a car like a 2CV or Land Rover.

This irks me about Tamiya too. They are absolutely dedicated to realistic miniaturization. Why wouldn't RC be in that too? What would be more realistic then a miniature in motion, just like the real thing only smaller? RC always seemed a little like a step child to me in the Tamiya family.

 

2 hours ago, taffer said:

It's managing expectations, tamiyas in a general sense are not designed for jumps larger than a kerb edge, a couple of inches, if you drive them as Tamiya videos advise there should be minimal issues!?

When you have more money, it's easier to start pushing the cars boundaries with brushless etc to see what you can get away with. 

Which cycles back around to expectations again, I wouldn't necessarily say the monster beetle orv is terrible be wise the gearbox fails with brushless in because that is portraying an unfair bais against that tamiya model.

I would more likely say stick to a sport tuned motor to minimise issues be wise of the old design etc....

As a Tamiya fan and one who's has experience with quite a few different models over the years I try to portray a fair view rather than bashing Tamiya because 'latest model' etc isn't as good as an Arrma, Traxxas etc

Agree 100%. People see Traxxas doing crazy things and expect that from everything. That's flawed thinking. I've sworn off putting brushless in Tamiyas. The flawed cars I spoke of are ones that fail under stock or possibly Sport Tuned power with normal use. Maybe the alloy DF01 gear goes a long way under 540 power (which makes it acceptable) but if it fails shortly, why not use the plastic gearset in the kit to begin with? Tamiyas are great kept in their limits.

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Another really great thread and some great points raised.  I have waded in to 'what car' threads with my advice, too.  These threads occur on every type of forum everywhere - I'm on a motorcycle forum where the popular noob threads are "what motorcycle, what helmet, what gloves?" etc.  The majority of people will reply either saying "get the one I've got, it's good" or "don't get the one I've got, it's bad" because the majority of people will only have one of them.

I actually feel qualified to advise on these kinds of threads because I have so many Tamiyas and have once owned or driven so many more.

I do sometimes feel that I should be advising "don't get a Tamiya."  We all know Tamiya are flawed and if doing big jumps or hitting top speeds are your thing, go Traxxas or Arma.  If you want cheap and RTR, get an FTX or whatever.  They may lack character and prestige compared to Tamiya but in real terms they're just as good and better value.  I tend to look down on a lot of brands because "they're RTR so they must be toy grade."  But actually this isn't true, it's just prejudice on my part.  Kit > RTR.  I would probably have more allegiance to and respect for other brands if they sold kits because I like the process of building as much as I like to drive.  And I usually don't like the same-old tribal flame paint schemes on other brands and I detest owning an RC car that looks exactly the same as everybody else's.

But I'm digressing a little here.

I assume that when someone joins Tamiyaclub they are well aware of Tamiya's flaws and want one anyway.  They don't want to beat their neighbour's Traxxas and they don't want to jump over their house.  They want something they can enjoy building (and let's be fair, this is where Tamiya truly excels) and detailing and maybe modifying in their own way.

But I too was a beginner at Tamiya once and I too didn't appreciate how flawed they were.  In the 90s I had a couple of Tamiyas, one NIB, and I discovered they were fragile.  Hard bodies would soon shatter and look terrible in the hands of a teenage boy, even one like myself who was not naturally destructive, and even with a silvercan motor (I never hoped for anything faster).  Breakages to chassis and drivetrain would be common.  Parts would be loose and wobbly and as a result, handling would be vague.  When I finally raised the funds to buy an NIB Kyosho, I expected better.  I was disappointed.  So to my mind, at least in the 80s and 90s, there was no brand that made a tough, solid, reliable car.  When I returned to Tamiya in the mid-00s I expected things to have moved on.

And I was pleased by what I found.  I bought a Dark Impact and found it to be more robust, better made, better handling, generally better in every way than anything I'd had when I was younger.  OK, I broke a few parts, and I melted the rear diff, but I drove it a lot and I was using a Super Stock BZ motor, which has torque enough to destroy a lot of things.  The only reason the DF03 is not at the top of my recommended car list right now is because Tamiya (and other manufacturers) have ludicrously stopped making hop-ups for it.

My second return-to-Tamiya purchase was a Midnight Pumpkin.  I had been taken in by Tamiya's marketing blurb when I was younger and had wanted one for two decades.  When I finally got one, I was bitterly disappointed.  It wasn't a high-performance RC truck, it was a daft kid's toy.  But it was never marketed like that.  With around 15 years constant Tamiya experience under my belt I now what the Midnight Pumpkin is for, and I love it for that, but I always felt it was marketed incorrectly.  Had it been my first purchase on my return to RC (and it almost was), I would have sold it within a week and never had another RC.  The last 15 years of my life would have been very different.  (I'd like to say I'd be richer, but I'd probably have gone back to buying and modifying 1:1 motorcycles and right now I would be surrounded by rusty frames, broken engines and a pile of DVLA fines for failing to declare SORN.  Again.  At least you don't have to register RC cars with a government agency.  Yet.)

But I do think that largely if you buy a Tamiya and use it as Tamiya intended, it will be OK.  You will get a great build experience whatever you buy.  It will run and do what it does, and do it acceptably (the Juggernaught being the exception that proves the rule).  Even a CC01 will run with its stock steering assembly for a fair while - my first came to me as a well-used and much-modified example but it still had the original plastic steering tube, and it was still driveable.

The problem is that the game as moved on and Tamiya haven't.  They're manufacturing for a market of middle-aged men who want to live the childhoods they couldn't have.  The problem is that they're marketing to kids who want high speed and durability and tribal flame paint schemes.  Let's face it, if the X-Maxx had been around when I was 11 years old, I'd never have looked twice at a silly little Clod Buster with its toy car body and its white toy car wheels and its 80s two-tone paint scheme when I could have the big shiny chrome and sleek, muscular, multicolour body of the X-Maxx.

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7 hours ago, makya said:

This needs to be yelled from the rooftops. I love tamiya, except for those.

This is a common gripe, but not as common has people struggling with Philips screw drivers. With a decent JIS driver I have never had an issue. I have stripped more hex screws for sure, although I have a cheap hex driver.

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6 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Also, you have to remember that Tamiya is not an RC car company. They are a model company who have an RC car division. And this is where I can find a little fault with them; their model kits are absolutely state-of-the-art and beautifully made, even the inexpensive ones. It bothers me seeing that kind of attention to detail in a 1/35 scale military miniature, but a coarsely-made Lexan blob of a body shell for a car like a 2CV or Land Rover. Their RC subject matter deserves better treatment from their model-makers. I'd be a lot happier with them if they put out one or two models a year, but they were all SRB- or Bruiser- level scale accuracy and sophistication. I don't care at all about the TT whatever or DT this or that. The new CC02 chassis shows promise, but enough with the Lexan. Let's see a return to "models suitable for radio control."

100% agree

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52 minutes ago, Mad Ax said:

But I too was a beginner at Tamiya once and I too didn't appreciate how flawed they were.

Looking back that sure is true. Back in the days I bought a Manta-ray thinking it would be a great car. But the sloppy steering and lack of power from the silvercan made the drive disappointing.... And don't get me started on the rear gearbox with its aluminum gears and motor mount....
I now bought a Blazing star for the nostalgia of the chassis, but it required quite some upgrades to make it an acceptable car to my taste.

And it's all down to acceptability I guess. If you want a base car for acceptable money, Tamiya has something for everyone.
And you can either keep it as a budget lazy runner for little money, or upgrade it to higher performance with the aftermarket options as Tamiya as well as other companies produce many options. Improved speed, or strength, looks, anything is possible so the tinker-factor is high enough to keep it interesting for us non-kids.
It all depends on a persons wishes and budget, but for the money, better cars exist if you are not held-back with your nostalgia. :lol:

 

53 minutes ago, Mad Ax said:

The problem is that the game as moved on and Tamiya haven't.  They're manufacturing for a market of middle-aged men who want to live the childhoods they couldn't have.  The problem is that they're marketing to kids who want high speed and durability and tribal flame paint schemes.  Let's face it, if the X-Maxx had been around when I was 11 years old, I'd never have looked twice at a silly little Clod Buster with its toy car body and its white toy car wheels and its 80s two-tone paint scheme when I could have the big shiny chrome and sleek, muscular, multicolour body of the X-Maxx.

I needed some Tamiya stuff and went to a LHS the first time after moving to the area I live now.

Although they sell some Tamiya stuff, the main focus is Traxxas. An indeed, I picked up and looked at a Bigfoot and E-Maxx from the shelves there, and they just feel so much tougher and stronger compared to Tamiya. Its like a different class of car.
The owner in the shop told me he was focusing toward Traxxas so he could sell more cars without his customers coming in again within a few days because of issues or damages on the car, complaining about the product and needing a lot of support. That makes sense off-course from a business point of view.

The Bigfoot is still on my list. ^_^

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21 minutes ago, Butler said:

With a decent JIS driver I have never had an issue. I have stripped more hex screws for sure

This.  For years I failed to understand why I was chewing up Tamiya screws, as well as all the screws on my Japanese motorcycles.  Finally someone explained to me the difference, I purchased a Tamiya screwdriver set and have mostly never had a problem since.  The cross-head screw design (Phillips, posi-drive and JIS being variations of this) was designed to allow machines and humans alike to operate screws with an automatic 'cam-out' action once full tension had been reached.

A hex drive doesn't allow for any cam action and although that means you can put more torque in your screws, it also means you can ruin the heads, ruin your driver or ruin your threads.  I've had way more hex heads than JIS heads have problems since I've been using Tamiya tools (although I am often surprised at just how much torque a hex head will take before it lets go).

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+1 on newcomers having unrealistic expectations of Tamiya vs Traxxas for bashing or Associated for performance 

+100 on Tamiya losing its way in recent years - whether that’s boring / repeat designs, sporadic spares / hop ups, lazy Lexan or crap screws

So, for entry level (£200 / £250) ‘fun’, it’s almost impossible to recommend any of Tamiya’s current line up out of the box vs a basic Traxxas Slash / Bandit or an Associated B6 ?

They’re all flawed to some degree and tbh the pleasure is building / running them to find out where ... then fixing it !

Thats a tough one for any newcomer to accept - and expensive even if they have a go because no one gets it right first time ...

If they’re still not put off, then we’re really back to everything Tamiya living in the grey - and judiciously hopping up a DT02 / 03 or DF02 / 03 ... with a DT02 being the easiest and DF03 needing / having less 😇

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1 minute ago, SuperChamp82 said:

So, for entry level (£200 / £250) ‘fun’, it’s almost impossible to recommend any of Tamiya’s current line up out of the box vs a basic Traxxas Slash / Bandit or an Associated B6 ?

It really depends on what somebody wants.  If someone wants to race around their back yard as fast as possible, bounce over jumps and scare the neighbourhood kids then a Traxxas of some sort would do it.  If someone wanted to race competitively at a local level then a B6 is a great starting point.

But if someone wanted to recapture the fun of their youth, enjoy building and tinkering, painting, having something that looks cool / different / interesting, Tamiya is still the go-to.

I think it's hard if that someone is < 10 years old and wants to play.  There's plenty of RTR stuff that would be more robust and perform better.  That said, I'd rather my kids start with a Hornet or Grasshopper, learn how it all goes together, put their own paint scheme on it and have something that they are emotionally invested in, than buy an FTX 1:12 truggy, drive it around the garden for 2 days then kick it to the back of the shed and forget about it.

As an aside, I've accused Tamiya of misleading marketing, but they aren't the only ones.  There are still plenty of manufacturers putting plastic tyres on entry-level 1:10 touring cars and selling them as "drifters".  Yes, they'll drift about as well as the plastic-tyred TT01s we used to make over a decade ago but they're not drift cars.  Prospective new drift drivers will link them on the club's Facebook page saying "I want to start drifting, is this a good car to begin with?" and we have to say "No, not at all.  You want a dedicated drift chassis, you'll soon outgrow the performance of that."  Which then starts a whole big argument with people who don't drift saying "but it is a drift car, it's got drift written on the box."

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A rising fighter is still the cheapest 1/10 scale Tamiya kit? 

It was at some point approx £45 now prob £65?

On release in 2008 I bought and sold it because it was 'boring' I purchased again approx. Two years later and installed a 4600kv brushless in it, fun in a straight line on tarmac but useless off road and kept bending the steering arms.

When my philosophy changed to a small number of models which allowed more hours driving (rather than 30+ different models with one run every couple of months) I found at the third time of asking that I really started to enjoy its simplicity and quirks and became more attached to it (which probably was parallel to being 12 years old and only owning a hornet at the time).

Now I think it's a great kit, cheap and cheerful with some nice ampro mods, I'm shocked it's still for sale from 2008 and Tamiya haven't released another version or different coloured parts yet! 

My runner has 50+ hours of runtime and will have many more! 

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9 hours ago, markbt73 said:

The new CC02 chassis shows promise, but enough with the Lexan. Let's see a return to "models suitable for radio control."

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To add my 2 cents of the models I've owned and used a lot:

White models:

Clod Buster. Bought one of these in the 80's when they first came and it more or less bomb proof. The steering is a bit cack out of the box, but it doesn't detract from the fun that can be had with it. I got one a 4 or 5 years ago for my son to learn to drive with , it's been on holiday to the beach and only gets cleaned with the air compressor. The gearboxes haven't been apart since I initially built it.

GF-01 Dump Truck. Got my son one of these a few years ago, and have to say, I'm tempted to get one for myself. It's fun to drive, robust, quick, handles well for a small monster truck, and if it's got flaws, I haven't found them yet …….

Thundershot / Terra scorcher. Really like these as a chassis. The transmission is bomb proof, the car can be made to handle well, and the A5 part can easily be replaced with an aluminium replacement.

Mad Bull. Again, this is a regular runner of mine. It has quirky handling, but is not a roll over machine like the lunch box. A very robust model that can be made to go fast easily and is ideal for beach running.

DF-02 / TT-01 - Owned a couple of these, and they only became unreliable when I fitted stupid brushless power in them trying to crack 50mph. The DF-02 was prone to chassis breakage though with front end impacts, but otherwise not a bad car.

Gray models

I put most of tamiya's models in this category, as I'm picky and can find fault in most things:

Hornet. Bought one of these as a kid and found the handling awful. Yes the gearbox is robust, but I broke several front suspension arms, and the wing is easily damaged from roll overs.

TXT-1 - Overall this is a great model, but the brass centre drive shafts are rubbish, I've replaced them in both my TXT-1s with traxxas REVO shafts which are much stronger. Tamiya should really look at doing their own version, the plastic revo shafts have got to be cheaper to make than the machined brass Tamiya design. The only other flaw is the rod ends on the 4 link arms, I regularly pull the plastic ends off in slightly hard landings and minor collisions with my sons Clod Buster.

Sand Rover My first buggy when I was a kid. I had a lot of fun with it, but the gearbox was weak and prone to damage with the open gears. Hated the re-re, Tamiya could have taken the  bathtub chassis from the original model and removed the moulding for the rear gearbox and added something robust on the back of it, widened the chassis or cut a hole in it for 7.2v battery, and beefed up the front suspension mounts slightly. Bang on some sand scorcher wheels and tires and it would have been a winner and would not have been necessary to cut holes in the bodyshell.

Black models

I think overall these are few and far between,  the only one I can remember owning was a Mud Blaster. I know this has already been discussed, but I had one of these and was royally disappointed with it. The gearbox shredded itself after a few weeks mild driving, along with hex drive shafts. I agree with DK308, the re-re's of the Monster Beetle and Blackfoot should have had the Bush devil rear end on them. If they had done I would have bought one, but the original gear case was a bad design on the frog, before Tamiya added monster sized tires to it.

 

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Wow, this turned into a really good topic...

It's becoming apparent that intended use and expectations play a huge part in it. If your goal is to drive the cars as much as possible, then it makes sense to seek out models with the fewest weak spots and best standard equipment, so you don't end up having to buy a bunch of extra parts to improve durability and performance. In this case, Tamiya designs, particularly the older designs, might very well be seen as "flawed." And certainly under-featured; plastic bushings and pogo-stick shocks don't cut it for a long-term runner.

On the other hand, if you see running the model as part of a larger hobby experience, then a reliable model in which nothing ever goes wrong, especially if it comes RTR, is going to bore you. It will strike you as an appliance, and you'll have no real attachment to it. You might enjoy running it, but it will seem like more of a toy to you than the "lesser" models that you had to build yourself. And the "flaws" in Tamiya models, rather than being negatives, will just seem like the price of admission, and an opportunity to tinker.

And finally, if you're like me these days, a modeler first and foremost, with driving being something you can do with your models but often don't, the RTR and "basher" vehicles won't even register on your radar, and Tamiya kits will be seen as having a whole host of other flaws: recycled wheel designs, pre-drilled body post holes (which make hidden body mounts far more difficult, if not impossible), grayed-out window decals, and other "shortcuts" to detail. In this light, the biggest flaws in the re-release Blackfoot are the extra body holes and the ugly "JC Whitney" grille, not the Frog-derived gearbox.

So from the standpoint of Tamiya within the marketplace, the trouble is not what they make, but how they are perceived. And actually, seen in this light, the MAP pricing makes some sense (though I still hate it). If you're cross-shopping a Tamiya Blackfoot with a Traxxas Stampede, you're going to see the Stampede as a far better value, and you'll never be troubled by the Blackfoot's "unreliable" gearbox. But if what you want is specifically a Tamiya Blackfoot, then the Stampede simply won't do anyway, so you won't care if it's a "better deal." I mean, frozen pre-packaged dinners are a good deal too... unless you love to cook.

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Interesting discussion , I'm back into RC after a gap of... gulp... 27 years and nice to see a forum where a decent discussion can be had without abuse being chucked about for different opinions..

For my 2 cents I had a CJ7 back in the mid 80's (couldn't afford a Tamiya) then a Midnight Pumpkin in early 90's  Dug them both out of the loft recently (too windy for the drones) to see if I could get my kids interested. We have been having a blast the last 4 weeks. I then bought a Lunchbox rerelease last month as it was the car I always wanted. :rolleyes:

I drive the pumpkin and my 12 yr old drives the Lunchbox (my 8yr old drives a tracked nikko)

There are perfect for where we live, we have a large field near by and a (currently) dusty woods not far away. The LB and MP  are great for both areas and we have a blast. I love the driving experience, fishtailing in the dirt, bouncing all over the place etc.  We both come away grinning every time.  Yeah ok been through a set of body mounts on the MP but no problem knew it would happen.

I picked up a TT02b and we ran that last night, we both said it was a bit slow and boring compared to the Pumpkin and Lunchbox.  (granted it can be upgraded to places the LB will never go, I will upgrade if the interest lasts with the kids). But we can't run it as it is on the field or woods where we drive the others.

Zero argument on Tamiya being flawed ….. But it depends on what you want from the hobby, I would recommend a MP or LB to a newbie as they put a big smile on your face due to their madness :blink:

And I love the act of building too, so RTR is out for me... and RTR look too plasticky, anyway each to their own and the world is a better place for it !

 

 

 

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Ok just took the dual ridge tt02b out again with a fully charged battery, kids and I took it to a very loose dusty but flat gravel path.

It was a blast I have to say, I think it seems slow as it’s quieter and there is less ‘drama’ and noise than with the MP & LB. Well until we got to the path that is !!

And power sliding / doughnuts round my daughter made us all laugh... ..That would be a lot harder with the LB.

So I can see the appeal and do like it, but I still love the mad bad Pumpkin :D

 

Now for some upgrades.......Heh heh.

 

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8 hours ago, Mad Ax said:

The problem is that the game as moved on and Tamiya haven't.  They're manufacturing for a market of middle-aged men who want to live the childhoods they couldn't have.  The problem is that they're marketing to kids who want high speed and durability and tribal flame paint schemes.  Let's face it, if the X-Maxx had been around when I was 11 years old, I'd never have looked twice at a silly little Clod Buster with its toy car body and its white toy car wheels and its 80s two-tone paint scheme when I could have the big shiny chrome and sleek, muscular, multicolour body of the X-Maxx.

That is absolutely spot on! 

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1 hour ago, Hobgoblin said:

That is absolutely spot on! 

True but are Tamiya running a marathon or sprint ?

There’s an unattractive (but compelling) logic in fleecing us to fill the coffers whilst releasing comedy crap that entices the next generation of model builders to enjoy running something they crafted themselves. 

And who then get drawn into the rabbit warren of old /  new Tamiya alike ...

Going head to head with $800 / 90kph Traxxas is classic tortoise vs hare - and btw my kids got bored of theirs inside 6 months 🤔

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