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markbt73

Longing for MSCs and AM radios

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Last weekend, I set out to do something I rarely do any more: drive an RC car. It was an old Bolink Digger, built out of bits and pieces that I actually forgot I had. I thought it would be fun to give it a run, so I stuck an old Novak Rooster ESC in it, along with a 2.4 ghz receiver, and... drove about 10 feet before the wheels went to full right lock, and the throttle stopped doing anything. I figured the old ESC had finally given up the ghost (it's 20 years old, after all), so I brought the car back inside and swapped it for a TEU-104 I had lying around. Except... whoops, I never got around to setting this one up... and where it's taped on the Digger chassis, I can't reach the setup button, so I'd need to un-tape it, and I already wasted one ESC's worth of tape... oh, forget it.

I've already given up anything more powerful than a silver-can 540 motor, because they're just so simple: bolt it up, plug it in, and go drive. And I never could get the hang of programmable radios, or model memories, or ESC profiles... I bought and sold two different brushless systems before I decided that I hated them. Basically, anything that has a button you have to press a certain number of times, while counting how many times a light blinks, can just go... well, you know.

Maybe it's because I've got such simple equipment in my other hobbies: my MG has two SU carbs and points ignition; my guitar amp is a simple six-watt, three-tube number; my favorite way of listening to music is to put on a vinyl record. It sounds like Ludditism, but I don't think it is; I love Netflix, after all. And obviously I'm on comfortable terms with the internet overall. I just like stuff that does what I want it to do; if that means using new technology, then great. But if the new technology is too hard to figure out, or doesn't do what it's supposed to do, then forget it. Especially if I know the old way works fine.

Next time I just want to go drive around a bit, I'm going to grab my Blackfoot. MSC, two-stick AM radio, and a basic NiMH battery. And I think I want to forego some more modern purchases, and seek out some more oldies with the good old mechanical equipment. Nothing wrong with the new stuff, I guess, if it works for you, but I find myself missing the old ways. I feel a need to reconnect with the way things used to be.

Anybody else feel this way?

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Yes and no. I have an old Blackfoot that I run with a manual esc and an AM radio. I like the feeling of it not being "updated". It runs just fine the way it is. I have a couple other rc's set up the same way.  I tried it with my second Clodbuster for a couple runs. I couldn't stand it and replaced it with an esc.  I think it's case by case for me. If I have issues with manual esc's, then I'll just forgo the frustration and switch to a cheap esc.   

The lipo cells I like and hate, but a good old NiMH I love. I don't have to worry about the possibility of combustion. 

The set up of some brands of brushless escs drive me up a freaking wall. I have a programmable Castle in my HPI Baja. I dread hooking it up to the computer to adjust settings.  Switching an esc between lipo and NiMH drives me insane. I'm staring at instructions trying to decide if I did it correctly based off the lights and beeps. 

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Simplicity?  Yes, I miss the idea of it.  But it wasn't all that easy back then. 

I don't miss MSC.  I touched the hot resister one too many times to miss it.  AM radios were okay, but don't miss the motor static.  Capacitors didn't solder well to the motor with a 40w iron.  

For me, 2017 was the future.  I don't need to go out and buy 12 AA batteries every time I want to run an RC car (remember the "receiver pack?).  Only to be left in the transmitter and leak out and make a green mess out of it.  If I unplug (and I unplug every time), LiPo in my transmitter is like Forever-battery.  Hobbywing 1060 doesn't have beeping things, does it?  It's simple and strong enough for most brushed motors.  I don't have to worry about 20t limit like old Eco20 ESC.  One 2.4Ghz radio controls all.  That saves so much space.  

Having said that, though, I learned to drive with sticks.  The wheel is okay.  But the trigger is not as intuitive as the left stick had been.  It feels like the trigger pulls left to go forward and pushes right to go backward.  Occasionally, I miss sticks quite badly.  

 

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I am a very late convert to Ghz radio, but i only did it through frustration of constantly having failures and fritzy behaviour because once i got beyond a couple of cars/radio sets i just don3think there is the volume of good quality AM kit out there any more. I miss the feel of AM sticks (although i converted an FS i6 radio so i am still on them), but that is about it. 

As for MSCs, sorry, but it's another no from me. ESCs are great, and as mentioned above, if you are happy with silver cans then just buy some cheap plug and play units that need no setup. On my Comical Hornet i have one that mimics an MSC (forward and reverse only, no brake) automatically senses end points, and moves the motor. And that's it. Just plug it in, turn on, drive. 

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7 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Anybody else feel this way?

Um, its like peered inside and read my mind. I identify with every word you wrote. I too, hate all the setup button pushing and counting blinking lights on ESCs. I always have to run back and grab the little setup sheet for Tamiya ESCs and re-read it. The squealing sound they make at low throttle is annoying too. Tamiya MSCs, on the on the hand aren't all that bad. I think I've only had a couple very very well used ones fail after many years of use and even then they would just lose one speed making them still usable. Only fried one resistor. Keep 'em clean and switch lubed and they work well for me. They also handle hotter motors than the typical Tamiya ESC. I'll make the concession that the little BEC plug is nice. So, there , I'm not totally against "new" tech ;).

Radios? All but three of mine are AM. Yeah, that means I've got 10 AM radio floating around, but they were cheap and made by Futaba. Never had a problem with them so why change? As far as brushless? Mine sits on my bench, unused. Overpowering and gradually destroying my Tamiyas, which were in no way meant for that kind of power, isn't for me.

Batteries? I'd still be using Nicads if I could. Yeah, the whole "memory" thing was a pain, but man, did they last a long time. I only upgraded to Nimh, never Lipo. A big part of it is safety for me. Performance isn't worth the risk, plus anything over 3000 mah seems good to me coming from the 1200 mah days.  But. I'm also not willing to deal with all the fussing "nannying" parts of taking care of Lipos properly. 

I like the internet but find most everybody mis-uses this awesomely powerful research tool for social entertainment and games (at least the people in my life). Netflix is great but my smartphone continuously makes me angry with updates and garbage I don't want on there. Its not all bad. I guess, in the end, I find a lot of new tech a PITA and as an adult I have enough of that already. I don't need it from my hobby.

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100% agree!

My 1:1 car is a 1989 BMW E30 manual with no electrics to go wrong and it never lets me down. It sounds great and drives beautifully too. Low profile tires, electric this and that, complex stereos all leave me cold.

Like you I have tried all of the new tech and found that for my simple needs it is far too complex and I just want to strap in a battery and go. The only allowance I have made for more modern times is switching to Life rather than Nimh which is no harder at all to charge and packs a much longer punch.

My kids think I am a dinosaur but I think they are so digitally focused they miss the simple joy of analogue.

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I haven't had an MSC since the good old 90s.  Actually I never really had problems with them, apart from when the battery started to die (usually after 3 minutes of runtime, as I only ever had old used batteries) and the servo would stop in the full-speed position, so the car would run away (albeit at reduced speed because the battery was flat).  No, I'd rather not go back there, if it's all the same.

TBH I love the better control I get from ESCs when I'm driving.  I don't notice it so much in general bashers (where I'd probably be just as happy with an MSC) but my race cars benefit from the adjustability and performance advantage of an ESC.  Being able to adjust punch settings for wet races, ABS, braking force, drag brake, etc, makes for a big difference on the track - even for me; at my own admission I'm a pretty poor racer.

I would never attempt to do a scale trail or rock crawling event without an ESC, nor drive my big rigs.  I use Hobbywing crawler ESCs in those.  The level of control they offer is superb, and unlike lots of ESCs they don't try to predict operation (brake, reverse, what ya gonna get next..?) based on input but just let you do the driving.  That means I can code throttle and brake profiles into my Arduino controllers and have my rigs run just the way I want them.  OK, that's coming at it from a completely different angle to everyone else on this thread, and I appreciate that for most, hacking c++ code to make a lifelike throttle profile is even more button-pressy than having to count the flashes and bleeps on an ESC.  But hey, I code for a living, so it's not so hard for me.  (I struggle with things that most people on TC make look easy, like in cutting straight lines and painting things).

I too hate the "get the manual and count the flashes" thing.  I have loads of ESCs where I periodically lose the manual, or don't have it with me at an event, so I spend ages hunting one down online on my phone so I can figure out why it isn't working.  That kinda sucks.  Lots of modern ESCs (hobbywing in particular) come with a programmer card in the box.  So much so that it annoys me when one doesn't come with a controller.  I have half a dozen HW Crawler programmer but they don't always work on other HW controllers.  I do have a generic HW programmer which works on lots of the older stuff, a kind gift from another racer who didn't use HW any more.

Similarly I don't miss AM radios.  I had some in the 90s and they were OK, although random glitching was normal even when playing alone.  In the 00s I started racing with AM radios, and there was always drama every week over who was on what frequency, who had enough spare crystals, why after 20 minutes of working it all out with the race director do we then get interference again...  I once narrowly avoided getting hit by an E-Maxx that went off at full speed thanks to the owner switching on to a frequency without checking (actually he had switched it on over the other side of the park and it was running absolutely fine until it got within range of my handset).

No, I don't miss that at all.  The only time I have radio trouble now is when using my older Spektrum DX-3C during a wheelie race, where there might be 30+ cars on track.  Sometimes mine will just give up and stop.  Even Spektrum has its limits.  Plus there are so many other manufacturers on the market now who weren't there before, I sometimes wonder if some cheaper brands can act a bit like radio jammers on a busy airwave because we never really had problems when only the pricey brands like Spektrum, Futaba and KO were in use.

I am starting to appreciate the drawback of LiPo.  Firstly that so many of them won't fit in Tamiya chassis.  If Core RC can make a LiPo of the correct size, why can't everyone else..??  Is it really that hard to make a box to the right dimensions..???  But then I have newer chassis that use shorty packs or other sizes.  I have custom builds that need small soft packs.  And I have to keep all those different types of battery in storage charge and top them up when I need them.  And, often as not, the batteries get charged but not used, so the next day (or sometimes 3-4 days later depending on what my work / home duties are) they get put back to storage charge again.  As a result I have a few packs that have seen very little productive use over the last 2-3 years but are also starting to puff because they've been cycled so many times.  You can't really win.  Then again I have some NiMH packs that I only bought a year ago - one of them lasted a grand total of 5 minutes in a big rig at the weekend where it should have done 2-3 hours.  That's a result of using a small percentage of the charge once a month then topping them off for storage.  At least in the rigs they aren't providing much current so they don't go so quickly out of balance, but once they're gone they're so hard to get back again.  And not much cheaper than a LiPo.

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On 9/10/2019 at 2:06 AM, markbt73 said:

I bought and sold two different brushless systems before I decided that I hated them. Basically, anything that has a button you have to press a certain number of times, while counting how many times a light blinks, can just go... well, you know.

Hear hear, just installed a Quicrun 1080 which comes with a programe card. No beeps, coloured lights, just numbers on a screen.

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So following up on this... I decided to inventory and test all the old radio gear I have sitting around, just to see what works. None of it is worth saving if it doesn't work; there's just no market for dead vintage electronics.

I have a couple of cars with known good vintage radio gear: my Cox Bandido still has its original "Cadet" radio, and a '90s Duratrax ESC, both of which work flawlessly, and my Blackfoot uses a nicel old Furaba 2GS stick-type radio, with the old Futaba "G" connectors on the receiver and servos. It works great as well, but I'm not a fan of the ergonomics of that transmitter; the sticks are too tall for comfort for me.

But I also have whole pile of other old radio gear that came with various used purchases over the years. So I plugged them in, switched them on, and here's what I found:

Airtronics/Sanwa SR2, 75 mhz: The radio I started out with, and I still like it. Transmitter works fine, although I had to use Futaba crystals in it, and steal the battery holder out of my Cox Cadet (same thing, more or less), but the receiver for it is dead as a doornail. Transmitter works fine with all 3 old Futaba 75mhz receivers I have, however.

Futaba Magnum Junior 2P, 27 mhz: Transmitter turns on, but is super glitchy. Reveicer works just fine with the Cadet transmitter. Transmitter looks great on a shelf; I just won't use it.

Traxxas pistol-grip radio, '90s style, 27 mhz: Works fine, but I can't stand the looks or ergonomics of these. And somehow I have two transmitters. Probably will just throw them out. But the receiver will be useful; works great with the Cadet transmitter.

Furaba Magnum Sport, angled style, 75 mhz: Works, but again, I can't stand these. And the battery holder is so busted it needs to be taped together to work. Trash, again, probably.

ESCs:

Novak Rooster, the one from the post above: Bench-tests fine, so I don't know what was going on before. Will try it again, maybe with a different radio.

Novak Rooster, bought new by me in the 90s: Still works fine. Will probably find a home in my vintage Boomerang.

Futaba MC112B: Forward works, but no reverse or brakes. Case is all beat up anyway. Trash.

Novak Explorer II: Not really vintage, so I wasn't too bothered when I found out that it's toast. Switched it on, and the light just kept blinking really fast and the servo I had plugged into channel 1 freaked out. Trash.

Novak Super Rooster: Didn't even bother to test it when I saw that it had scorch marks around the heat sinks. And the wires have been cut and spliced many times. Someone did cruel and unusual things to this speed control. Trash.

Altech reversing ESC: I really wanted this one to work, because it looks so cool: aluminum case with metal servo ears sticking out for mounting. It powers up, but doesn't respond to inputs, and turning the pots even a tiny bit makes it jump from full forward to full reverse. Keeping it, and will try to fix it someday.

Duratrax DTX-4: Another cool-looking oldie. Forward/brake racing ESC froom the late 80s. It works, but the throttle is backwards, so it will only work with a radio that has servo reversing. Probably will end up in an RC10. Or maybe my Optima...

Novak NESC-4: Can't test this one yet, without soldering on some connectors. Wires are cut really close to the case, so I'll have to open it up and re-solder new wires to the board. Another project for another day. But too cool to throw out.

Traxxas XL-1: Low-frequency reversing ESC that still has pots instead of a setup button, so it's kinda vintage-y. Works fine. Huge, though; have to choose what car it goes into carefully.

Servos: 3 of the 5 Airtronics 94631s that I have all work fine. One is dead, and one has no plug. But two of the good ones have broken ears. Going to do a little parts switcheroo to make them whole again. And convert the plugs to Futaba polarity.

So I guess I can keep myself in old-timey radio gear for a while. I still have my trusty Tactic 2.4 ghz pistol-grip (my favorite for photo shoots because I can drive it one-handed) and my Spektrum DX5e two-stick for the crawlers, and a couple of lipo-friendly ESCs and batteries for the newer cars. But I can keep the old stuff running on AM radios, non-push-button ESCs (or MSCs), and Tamiya-plug stick-packs, and that makes me happy...

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I still use FM (Futaba PCM1024 actually), NiCd / NiMH batteries and brushed motors w/ESCs in all of my cars.  Never a problem.

Have not yet gone to Lipo, 2.4GHz or brushless.  Maybe some day.

Edit to add:  I do not miss AM radios or MSCs.  Both have caused broken parts that cost me money to repair.

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